The Moral Law not Abrogated by Christ to Believers

[williemac]

God knew we were sinners when He saved us. While we were yet sinners,Christ died for the ungodly. Lets face it, we can still sin. But God's intention is to do away with our species altogether. This will solve the sin issue. Nothing else will. We are a new creation. That is His solution.
However, the process has not yet been finished. Does anyone imagine that sin can halt this process? If it could, then the process could not even have made it to the ground floor. Salvation is not given, life is not given, on the basis of a person's ability to quit sinning.

Of all the reasons a person needs to behave himself, justification is not one of them. It is not our behavior that justifies us before God, It is our humility. It is our faith in Him. Faith that no matter what, He will complete what He began in us. If it comes to light that He has not begun anything yet in a person, it is not his behavior that will correct this. It is and always will be his humility and faith. Those are the real issues. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Those who feel justified by their behavior are treading in risky waters.

 

[michaelvpardo]

There is another way of interpreting this.

1. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

The Law has not passed away because it has been destroyed but because it has been fulfilled. What it was meant to do has come to an end.

Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; (Gal 3:23-25).


2. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

This contains a double condition.
For assuredly, I say to you,
[condition #1] till heaven and earth pass away,
[the action] one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law
[condition #2] till all is fulfilled.

In other words the law will not ever pass away (condition #1) unless it is fulfilled first (condition #2). Now Jesus says he has come to fulfil the Law – and he does.
So when Jesus fulfilled the law it became obsolete.

The only problem with your arguement is that though Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, the law will not be fulfilled (prophetically or in it's purpose) until the return of Christ, the thousand year reign of Christ over the kingdoms of this world, the final rebellion, the second resurrection, and the final judgment. When Christ hands over the kingdom to His Father, there will be no more sin, no more rebellion, and no more lawlessness, hence no more requirement for a law. While the law remains there remains the fear of death. While death remains there remains a purpose to the law: restraint. Our society seeks to throw off law and with it, restraint. Aleister Crowley, self professed warlock, cult leader, blood drinker, and man of perverse inclinations taught his followers "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." The cult survives the man, and I've met at least one follower who was convinced that Crowley's law was nothing but good. How is a "Christian" who believes that grace is an excuse for lawlessness any different from the anti-christian Crowley?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How is a "Christian" who believes that grace is an excuse for lawlessness any different from the anti-christian Crowley?

Christians don't believe in lawlessness. They obey the law of Christ, which supersedes the law of Moses.

 

[Raeneske]

Christians don't believe in lawlessness. They obey the law of Christ, which supersedes the law of Moses.

So, is your stance that the 10 Commandments, is the law of Moses? And the only way to be lawless, is to disobey the law.

TO EVERYONE

Now let's everyone consider what Jesus Christ said. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. So what does modern theology say fulfill means. To do away with it, rather nail it to the cross. So, "Think not I am come to destroy the law. I am come to keep it, and then do away with it" ... And that is modern day theology. In a nutshell. It makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

Where there is no law, there cannot be any sin. Jesus Christ wrote that law with His finger upon Mount Sinai, and those who say we should not keep the law, say that the 10 Commandments and Jesus's law are not the same. That makes no sense, especially considering they have the same standards of righteousness. But it also makes no sense, because Jesus summarized the 10 Commandments. And somehow, the summary is being thought to mean "do none of the 10 commandments". No, by their fruits ye shall know them. Romans 13:8-10 explains that Jesus means to keep the 10 Commandments, in his summary. The first half of the summary refers to loving God, the second half of the summary refers to loving your fellow neighbours. I wish for people to understand this crucial point. Jesus simply SUMMARIZED the law. He did not say that you would not have to keep it. It simply means, if you love God, You will obey the first 4 commandments, completely, outwardly and in your heart, and if you love your neighbour, you will keep those last 6 commandments, you will keep the last 6 outwardly, and inwardly. Again, Romans 13:8-10 explains that to us. WHOSOEVER shall teach men to break the commandments, shall be called least in heaven. WHOSOEVER, does not exclude us, Christians. It does not exclude whether you are saved or not, or whether the crowd you're preaching to is saved or not. It's a DONT YOU EVER tell men to break ANY of those 10 Commandments.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

There is another way of interpreting this.

1. “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

The Law has not passed away because it has been destroyed but because it has been fulfilled. What it was meant to do has come to an end.

Now before faith came, we were confined under the law, kept under restraint until faith should be revealed. So that the law was our custodian until Christ came, that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a custodian; (Gal 3:23-25).


2. "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

This contains a double condition.
For assuredly, I say to you,
[condition #1] till heaven and earth pass away,
[the action] one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law
[condition #2] till all is fulfilled.

In other words the law will not ever pass away (condition #1) unless it is fulfilled first (condition #2). Now Jesus says he has come to fulfil the Law – and he does.
So when Jesus fulfilled the law it became obsolete.

You have truly missed the mark here. Both theologically and logically.

 

[Mungo]

The only problem with your arguement is that though Jesus fulfilled the righteous requirements of the law, the law will not be fulfilled (prophetically or in it's purpose) until the return of Christ, the thousand year reign of Christ over the kingdoms of this world, the final rebellion, the second resurrection, and the final judgment. When Christ hands over the kingdom to His Father, there will be no more sin, no more rebellion, and no more lawlessness, hence no more requirement for a law. While the law remains there remains the fear of death. While death remains there remains a purpose to the law: restraint. Our society seeks to throw off law and with it, restraint. Aleister Crowley, self professed warlock, cult leader, blood drinker, and man of perverse inclinations taught his followers "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law." The cult survives the man, and I've met at least one follower who was convinced that Crowley's law was nothing but good. How is a "Christian" who believes that grace is an excuse for lawlessness any different from the anti-christian Crowley?

The Law has been fulfilled. Prophecy is something else.

Jesus said “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill." The Law and the Prophets are two different things

But then he focuses on the Law alone "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled."

The Law has been fufilled.

You have truly missed the mark here. Both theologically and logically.

No I haven't

So, is your stance that the 10 Commandments, is the law of Moses? And the only way to be lawless, is to disobey the law.

TO EVERYONE

Now let's everyone consider what Jesus Christ said. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, but to fulfill. So what does modern theology say fulfill means. To do away with it, rather nail it to the cross. So, "Think not I am come to destroy the law. I am come to keep it, and then do away with it" ... And that is modern day theology. In a nutshell. It makes utterly no sense whatsoever.

Where there is no law, there cannot be any sin. Jesus Christ wrote that law with His finger upon Mount Sinai, and those who say we should not keep the law, say that the 10 Commandments and Jesus's law are not the same. That makes no sense, especially considering they have the same standards of righteousness. But it also makes no sense, because Jesus summarized the 10 Commandments. And somehow, the summary is being thought to mean "do none of the 10 commandments". No, by their fruits ye shall know them. Romans 13:8-10 explains that Jesus means to keep the 10 Commandments, in his summary. The first half of the summary refers to loving God, the second half of the summary refers to loving your fellow neighbours. I wish for people to understand this crucial point. Jesus simply SUMMARIZED the law. He did not say that you would not have to keep it. It simply means, if you love God, You will obey the first 4 commandments, completely, outwardly and in your heart, and if you love your neighbour, you will keep those last 6 commandments, you will keep the last 6 outwardly, and inwardly. Again, Romans 13:8-10 explains that to us. WHOSOEVER shall teach men to break the commandments, shall be called least in heaven. WHOSOEVER, does not exclude us, Christians. It does not exclude whether you are saved or not, or whether the crowd you're preaching to is saved or not. It's a DONT YOU EVER tell men to break ANY of those 10 Commandments.

I covered this in post #5:-

I think we need to distinguish between the eternal moral law, which is valid for all time and a particular expression or codification of that law which may be valid only for a particular time or people.

The Jewish Law of the Sinai Covenant was such an expression/codification for the Jews under the Sinai covenant. That expression of God's law is not valid for us. But that doesn't mean we can ignore God's eternal moral law.

Murder was wrong long before there was the Law of the Sinai Covenant and is still wrong. It is God's moral law that we do not murder another human being.

All civilations recognise this moral law & have some implementation of it in their statutes, though the particular expressions may be slightly different. We are tried and condemned against the law in the particular juridisction we are in.

I live in England and if I kill someone I will be convicted under English Law. But if I travel to France and kill someone there I will be convicted under French Law.

Similarly I am a Christian living under the Law of the New Covenant, not a Jew living under the Law of the Sinai Covenant. God will not judge me under that old covenant but under the new one.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I live in England and if I kill someone I will be convicted under English Law. But if I travel to France and kill someone there I will be convicted under French Law.

Similarly I am a Christian living under the Law of the New Covenant, not a Jew living under the Law of the Sinai Covenant. God will not judge me under that old covenant but under the new one.

Precisely. People get so confused about this.

So, is your stance that the 10 Commandments, is the law of Moses?

That is correct.

Where there is no law, there cannot be any sin.

You're confusing sin with imputation and penalty of sin. Where there is no law, the penalty for sin is not imputed, but sin is still sin.


We are not under the law of Moses; it is, figuratively speaking, written in our hearts. Obedience to law is not the issue. GOD has already proven that man cannot keep his law. He himself fulfilled the righteousness required by the law of Moses, and through grace imputes that righteousness to us who believe in Christ. If we are righteous, there is no need for the law of Moses:

... law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1 Timothy 1:9

... the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (law of Moses). Romans 8:2



Thus the new law is faith in the finished work of Christ. To those who obey this law, GOD shows favor. To those who don't obey this law, wrath.

All injustice is sin... 1 John 5:17

If he draws back (into unbelief), my soul has no favor in him; but the just one will live out of my faith. Habakkuk 2:4

... whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23

... without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

 

[Raeneske]

Precisely. People get so confused about this.



That is correct.



You're confusing sin with imputation and penalty of sin. Where there is no law, the penalty for sin is not imputed, but sin is still sin.


We are not under the law of Moses; it is, figuratively speaking, written in our hearts. Obedience to law is not the issue. GOD has already proven that man cannot keep his law. He himself fulfilled the righteousness required by the law of Moses, and through grace imputes that righteousness to us who believe in Christ. If we are righteous, there is no need for the law of Moses:

... law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 1 Timothy 1:9

... the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death (law of Moses). Romans 8:2



Thus the new law is faith in the finished work of Christ. To those who obey this law, GOD shows favor. To those who don't obey this law, wrath.

All injustice is sin... 1 John 5:17

If he draws back (into unbelief), my soul has no favor in him; but the just one will live out of my faith. Habakkuk 2:4

... whatsoever [is] not of faith is sin. Romans 14:23

... without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. Hebrews 11:6

Your post is confusing. Let me attempt to make what I'm saying, plain:

There is no transgression against the laws of the American Government, where there is no law. You cannot break a law that simply does not exist. If the American Government says that sprinting 5 miles is against the law, then you are a "sinner" when you break that law. But if that law does not exist, then you cannot be in sin. If the law is done away with, you cannot break it. If that law is removed from the books, you cannot be a "sinner" when you then sprint 5 miles. Why? Because the law doesn't exist.

You cannot be a sinner if the law does not exist, the 10 Commandments. It is an impossibility. Logically speaking, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Obedience to the law is the issue. Revelation 14:12 clearly says the Saints keep God's Commandments. Jesus summarizes the 10 Commandments for us in two "words". The law is the issue. It is the standard of righteousness that exists. That is why it is now written in our hearts, instead of tables of stones. It is important for us to obey those laws, and to know them. We now obey the Spirit and the Letter of the law (which they were supposed to do in the past anyways, but they lost the light of knowledge).

You cannot have "faith" and continue to break the law of God. That is mere presumption. You presume, you may break the 10 Commandments (whether it is all ten of them, or just one), and that the LORD Jesus Christ will be your Saviour. Don't take me out of context. I am not saying you cannot make mistakes, or that the LORD does not save sinners. But Jesus Christ came to give you the strength to obey, and to be the sacrifice for you. Obedience to that law has always been a must.

And no, don't confuse the eternal moral law, with the law of Moses.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You cannot be a sinner if the law does not exist, the 10 Commandments. It is an impossibility. Logically speaking, where there is no law, there is no sin.

You're making that up. Paul said that sin is not imputed when there is no law, not that sin doesn't exist. Only a fool can say man has no sin. The sins that existed under the law were the same sins that exist(ed) before and after the law.

Obedience to the law is the issue. Revelation 14:12 clearly says the Saints keep God's Commandments. Jesus summarizes the 10 Commandments for us in two "words". The law is the issue. It is the standard of righteousness that exists. That is why it is now written in our hearts, instead of tables of stones. It is important for us to obey those laws, and to know them. We now obey the Spirit and the Letter of the law (which they were supposed to do in the past anyways, but they lost the light of knowledge).

You cannot have "faith" and continue to break the law of God. That is mere presumption. You presume, you may break the 10 Commandments (whether it is all ten of them, or just one), and that the LORD Jesus Christ will be your Saviour. Don't take me out of context. I am not saying you cannot make mistakes, or that the LORD does not save sinners. But Jesus Christ came to give you the strength to obey, and to be the sacrifice for you. Obedience to that law has always been a must.

And no, don't confuse the eternal moral law, with the law of Moses.

You're completely lost if you think the law is the standard. Christ is the standard. Look to Christ, or look to the law. Be justified by Christ, or be justified by law. Walk in faith, or walk after the law. There is no middle ground. Obedience to the spirit is the issue; no man can keep the law.

 

[Raeneske]

You're making that up. Paul said that sin is not imputed when there is no law, not that sin doesn't exist. Only a fool can say man has no sin. The sins that existed under the law were the same sins that existed before the law.



You're completely lost if you think the law is the standard. Christ is the standard. Look to Christ, or look to the law. Be justified by Christ, or be justified by law. Walk in faith, or walk after the law. Obedience to the spirit is the issue; no man can keep the law. You break the law of GOD all of the time because whatever is not of faith is sin.

Romans 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You cannot sin without having a law. I think this verse explains it quite simply.

The law is an absolute reflection of the perfection and holiness of Jesus Christ. Christ kept that entire law, the Spirit and the Letter of the law. That law, when rightfully understood (I say rightfully, because some only believe that the law refers only to the letter, not realizing it's always referred to the letter and the spiritual), is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ. Look at Him who had no sin in Him. Can you tell me what about that law He broke? Nothing in the letter correct? Nothing in the Spirit either, correct? He was perfect, correct? And why? Because He understood that law, completely, knowing what was transgression against it, and what was not.

You're right, no man can keep the law... well half right. They cannot keep it before they are saved. After they are saved, they go through to process of being born again. That is the change in their life. Their obedient to that law in ALL it's ins and outs. They will still fall yes, and make mistakes. But they will get right back up, repent, and continue relying on the LORD for His strength and holiness. It is CHRIST our righteousness. And you cannot claim that, if you walk in blatant disobedience to the Law of God. Christ's righteousness never breaks that law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Romans 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You cannot sin without having a law. I think this verse explains it quite simply.

The law is an absolute reflection of the perfection and holiness of Jesus Christ. Christ kept that entire law, the Spirit and the Letter of the law. That law, when rightfully understood (I say rightfully, because some only believe that the law refers only to the letter, not realizing it's always referred to the letter and the spiritual), is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ. Look at Him who had no sin in Him. Can you tell me what about that law He broke? Nothing in the letter correct? Nothing in the Spirit either, correct? He was perfect, correct? And why? Because He understood that law, completely, knowing what was transgression against it, and what was not.

You're right, no man can keep the law... well half right. They cannot keep it before they are saved. After they are saved, they go through to process of being born again. That is the change in their life. Their obedient to that law in ALL it's ins and outs. They will still fall yes, and make mistakes. But they will get right back up, repent, and continue relying on the LORD for His strength and holiness. It is CHRIST our righteousness. And you cannot claim that, if you walk in blatant disobedience to the Law of God. Christ's righteousness never breaks that law.

If you think men did not sin before there was law, I will leave you in your delusion.

You're mixing law with grace. It doesn't work. It is a form of godliness that denies the power. You are either justified and perfected by grace, or by law. There is no middle ground. I truly believe you don't understand what the grace of GOD is.

 

[Mungo]

Your post is confusing. Let me attempt to make what I'm saying, plain:

There is no transgression against the laws of the American Government, where there is no law. You cannot break a law that simply does not exist. If the American Government says that sprinting 5 miles is against the law, then you are a "sinner" when you break that law. But if that law does not exist, then you cannot be in sin. If the law is done away with, you cannot break it. If that law is removed from the books, you cannot be a "sinner" when you then sprint 5 miles. Why? Because the law doesn't exist.

You cannot be a sinner if the law does not exist, the 10 Commandments. It is an impossibility. Logically speaking, where there is no law, there is no sin.

Obedience to the law is the issue. Revelation 14:12 clearly says the Saints keep God's Commandments. Jesus summarizes the 10 Commandments for us in two "words". The law is the issue. It is the standard of righteousness that exists. That is why it is now written in our hearts, instead of tables of stones. It is important for us to obey those laws, and to know them. We now obey the Spirit and the Letter of the law (which they were supposed to do in the past anyways, but they lost the light of knowledge).

You cannot have "faith" and continue to break the law of God. That is mere presumption. You presume, you may break the 10 Commandments (whether it is all ten of them, or just one), and that the LORD Jesus Christ will be your Saviour. Don't take me out of context. I am not saying you cannot make mistakes, or that the LORD does not save sinners. But Jesus Christ came to give you the strength to obey, and to be the sacrifice for you. Obedience to that law has always been a must.

And no, don't confuse the eternal moral law, with the law of Moses.

We keep those of God's commandments that are applicable to us.

The Laws of the Sinai Covenant were applicable to the Jews. They are not applicable to us.

You are confusing God's eternal moral law with the Laws of the Sinai Covenant given to the Jews.

The laws that are applicable to us in the New Covenant are in our hearts and also in the New Testament.

 

[williemac]

Romans 4:15 - Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

You cannot sin without having a law. I think this verse explains it quite simply.

The law is an absolute reflection of the perfection and holiness of Jesus Christ. Christ kept that entire law, the Spirit and the Letter of the law. That law, when rightfully understood (I say rightfully, because some only believe that the law refers only to the letter, not realizing it's always referred to the letter and the spiritual), is a perfect transcript of the character of Jesus Christ. Look at Him who had no sin in Him. Can you tell me what about that law He broke? Nothing in the letter correct? Nothing in the Spirit either, correct? He was perfect, correct? And why? Because He understood that law, completely, knowing what was transgression against it, and what was not.

You're right, no man can keep the law... well half right. They cannot keep it before they are saved. After they are saved, they go through to process of being born again. That is the change in their life. Their obedient to that law in ALL it's ins and outs. They will still fall yes, and make mistakes. But they will get right back up, repent, and continue relying on the LORD for His strength and holiness. It is CHRIST our righteousness. And you cannot claim that, if you walk in blatant disobedience to the Law of God. Christ's righteousness never breaks that law.

The born again experience is not a process. The fact that you think otherwise tells me that you need to be taught. Paul said to the Ephesians that they ought to put off the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts and that they should put on the new man...ok, here it is....." which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph.4:22-24). The new man is the part of us that was born of the Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. We have this new man. We are simply told to walk in the nature of this new man rather than the nature of the old man. There is no process. l If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. (2Cor.5:17). This is not a process. We have already received all things that pertain to life and godliness (1Pet.1:3).

It is imperative that a Christian understands that he is not the same as he was. He has been given eternal life by way of the new birth. If his self perception is anything short of this, he will set about attempting to change himself for the better by his own resources, or he will go back into the behavior that he can relate to as the sinner that he thinks he still is....or a little of both.

The new nature within us is equivalent to the law being in our hearts. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. We are to be renewed in the spirit of our mind to the change that has already taken place. This is the key to a changed life. We are to be doing the right things for the right reasons. Your doctrine is false because you are promoting right behavior for the wrong reasons. You are adding our behavior into the arena of future justification. If there is any further justification needed, then we are doomed. No one can withstand the standard of the law and survive. Not even we who have the spirit. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7).
The new man is already justified for life. He is righteous and holy. It is finished. This thing that you call blatant disobedience to the law of God has been paid for by the death of Jesus. Get over it. He is not about to climb up there and be killed again and again. The one sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice. It was offered once for all. We are perfected forever (Heb.10:14) by this one sacrifice. Our sins have been remitted and therefore no further sacrifice is needed (Heb.10:18). God has promised that by this sacrifice, our sins and lawless deeds, He will remember no more (Heb.10-:17).
All sin is blatant transgression of law. But we are no longer under law. The old man has been crucified with Christ. This is the same old man that Paul said to put off. He is positionally dead and the sins attributed to him are judged and paid for. The righteousness of the new man is what is now attributed to us. This is regardless of our behavior. It is by way of the new birth, which has already occurred through faith in Him. In Gal.3:21 we read that if there was a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law. According to that passage there is no law that we can keep to achieve righteousness or life. These do not come in a process. They are given freely by a gift of grace (Rom.5:15-18). Read all of these passages and then tell me how they are wrong or don't apply.

 

[Raeneske]

If you think men did not sin before there was law, I will leave you in your delusion.

You're mixing law with grace. It doesn't work. It is a form of godliness that denies the power. You are either justified and perfected by grace, or by law. There is no middle ground. I truly believe you don't understand what the grace of GOD is.

What you and I think are completely different. I never said "Men did not sin before there was a law." I believe in the eternal realities of the 10 Commandments of God. After all, according to Psalm 103:20, even the angels in Heaven keep God's commandments.

A form of godliness claims to keep be holy. That is the form, which people cover with grace. They claim Christ our righteousness, while trampling the law of God, the perfect transcript of His character. I understand the grace of God perfectly fine. I understand that we may not sin, that grace may abound. And what is sin? Transgression of the law. You are under grace, we are if we accept Christ. But you are no longer under grace, when you continue to break the law. When you break the law, you put yourself under that law, under the power and condemnation of that law. And if you refuse to repent of the sins, Christ cannot save you. You will not, nor anyone else, to trample upon the precepts of the 10 Commandments, the perfect transcript of His character.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

What you and I think are completely different. I never said "Men did not sin before there was a law." I believe in the eternal realities of the 10 Commandments of God. After all, according to Psalm 103:20, even the angels in Heaven keep God's commandments.

A form of godliness claims to keep be holy. That is the form, which people cover with grace. They claim Christ our righteousness, while trampling the law of God, the perfect transcript of His character. I understand the grace of God perfectly fine. I understand that we may not sin, that grace may abound. And what is sin? Transgression of the law. You are under grace, we are if we accept Christ. But you are no longer under grace, when you continue to break the law. When you break the law, you put yourself under that law, under the power and condemnation of that law. And if you refuse to repent of the sins, Christ cannot save you. You will not, nor anyone else, to trample upon the precepts of the 10 Commandments, the perfect transcript of His character.

I bet you believe that your past sins were forgiven when you were 'saved', but that you now have to keep the law to stay in GOD's favor. Am I correct?

 

[Raeneske]

The born again experience is not a process. The fact that you think otherwise tells me that you need to be taught. Paul said to the Ephesians that they ought to put off the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts and that they should put on the new man...ok, here it is....." which was created according to God in true righteousness and holiness" (Eph.4:22-24). The new man is the part of us that was born of the Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit. We have this new man. We are simply told to walk in the nature of this new man rather than the nature of the old man. There is no process. l If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. (2Cor.5:17). This is not a process. We have already received all things that pertain to life and godliness (1Pet.1:3).

It is imperative that a Christian understands that he is not the same as he was. He has been given eternal life by way of the new birth. If his self perception is anything short of this, he will set about attempting to change himself for the better by his own resources, or he will go back into the behavior that he can relate to as the sinner that he thinks he still is....or a little of both.

The new nature within us is equivalent to the law being in our hearts. As a man thinks in his heart, so is he. We are to be renewed in the spirit of our mind to the change that has already taken place. This is the key to a changed life. We are to be doing the right things for the right reasons. Your doctrine is false because you are promoting right behavior for the wrong reasons. You are adding our behavior into the arena of future justification. If there is any further justification needed, then we are doomed. No one can withstand the standard of the law and survive. Not even we who have the spirit. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the excellence of the glory may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7).
The new man is already justified for life. He is righteous and holy. It is finished. This thing that you call blatant disobedience to the law of God has been paid for by the death of Jesus. Get over it. He is not about to climb up there and be killed again and again. The one sacrifice is an eternal sacrifice. It was offered once for all. We are perfected forever (Heb.10:14) by this one sacrifice. Our sins have been remitted and therefore no further sacrifice is needed (Heb.10:18). God has promised that by this sacrifice, our sins and lawless deeds, He will remember no more (Heb.10-:17).
All sin is blatant transgression of law. But we are no longer under law. The old man has been crucified with Christ. This is the same old man that Paul said to put off. He is positionally dead and the sins attributed to him are judged and paid for. The righteousness of the new man is what is now attributed to us. This is regardless of our behavior. It is by way of the new birth, which has already occurred through faith in Him. In Gal.3:21 we read that if there was a law given that could have given life, then truly righteousness would have been by the law. According to that passage there is no law that we can keep to achieve righteousness or life. These do not come in a process. They are given freely by a gift of grace (Rom.5:15-18). Read all of these passages and then tell me how they are wrong or don't apply.

The born again process is a continual process. You are continually growing day, you are continuing to grow daily as a Christian. Yes, there are things which seem to instantly change on day 1. But that comes from a constant wooing of the Holy Spirit upon the hearts of men. We are slowly learning how to talk, as the new Creation.

I am not saying that we need "further justification". I don't even suggest that in my posts. I honestly don't know where that even came from.

The new man however, cannot be justified IF HE TURNS AWAY, which he can CHOOSE to do after choosing Jesus Christ. When he learns of sins he does not want to give up, and hold onto them as strongly as he possibly can. You may never justify yourself, but you certainly can choose NOT to be justified by Christ after being saved.

All sin is not blatant transgression of the law. I explained that to you. Willful sin after you receive knowledge of the truth, is sin which you hold onto and refuse to let go of. It is not sin, where you are IGNORANT of. It is not sin which you repent of. It is sin which is never stopped, never repented of. And because of this sin, the person committing them is then trampling on Jesus Christ. And for this, the soul that was once saved, loses their salvation.

And again I repeat, no work will ever gain someone Christ, or salvation. But for the works you DON'T do, you CAN lose your salvation. For refusing to be obedient to Jesus Christ, you can and will lose your salvation.

As for your last remark. The verses are not wrong. But the conclusion you are drawing, I highly disagree with.

I bet you believe that your past sins were forgiven when you were 'saved', but that you now have to keep the law to stay in GOD's favor. Am I correct?

I don't keep the law to get saved. I am obedient because I AM SAVED. It is simply the fruits of a Christian, to be obedient to the Lord Jesus Christ.

And please, do you go around literally murdering people to stay in God's favor now that you're saved? No, it's obedience to God, because you love Him. It's the same thing with every other commandment. I obey, because I love Him, because that law, is now written in my heart. That law of God, the perfect transcript (when rightly understood) of Jesus Christ's obedient character, is now written on my heart.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't keep the law to get saved. I am obedient because I AM SAVED. It is simply the fruits of a Christian, to be obedient to the Lord Jesus Christ.

And please, do you go around literally murdering people to stay in God's favor now that you're saved? No, it's obedience to God, because you love Him. It's the same thing with every other commandment. I obey, because I love Him, because that law, is now written in my heart. That law of God, the perfect transcript (when rightly understood) of Jesus Christ's obedient character, is now written on my heart.

But you will admit that if you don't keep the commandments of the law you will fall out of favor with GOD? Right?

 

[Raeneske]

But you will admit that if you don't keep the commandments of the law you will fall out of favor with GOD? Right?

I will also ask you one question. If you refuse to keep the 6th Commandment, do you fall out of favor with God?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I will also ask you one question. If you refuse to keep the 6th Commandment, do you fall out of favor with God?

I am dead to the law of Moses through Christ. How can I keep a law I am dead to?

btw, you didn't answer my question.

 

[7angels]

crftd
you are are right to a point but it seems to me you have fallen into a ditch though. you are right that we are no longer walk under the law but we are still supposed to obey the law because the law is good and it comes from God. before Christ we were held responsible to obey the law and once a year(correct me if i am wrong) isreal offered sacrifices for their sins(this is a picture of coming before God and asking forgiveness for our mistakes). the law according to the NT covenant is now written on our hearts. but the law is still around but now it is seen in a different form then before. we are still held responsible for disobeying the law of God but because of Christ we can now repent and get straight with God immediately. remember the old testament is a type and shadow of what we have now. i suggest if you doubt me to find it in the Word. you should be able to find it in the old testament in type and shadow as well as in the new testament.

God bless.