The Moral Law not Abrogated by Christ to Believers

[Raeneske]

Willful sin? I suppose you have a definition of willful sin. However, I am not interested in YOUR definition of it. The term "sin willfully" is used just one time in scripture. It has a context. The meaning of it is not ours to speculate or contrive. The author of Hebrews used the term and in a context where he was speaking of they who sin outside of the sacrifice of Jesus, through unbelief. Read the last verse in the context, (10:39). We "believe" to the saving of the soul. This lines up with Rom.10:9.

Here is the problem. In regards to they who concur with your suggestion that one can give back eternal life by sinning,,I have observed at least several interpretations from various brothers and sisters as to just what degree of sinning constitutes willful sin. There is no universal agreement on the term's meaning. This indicates that the author did not define it. However, the error is in the conclusion that the author was suggesting that a 'believer' will be judged if he sins willfully. He was not saying any such thing. If he was, then he contradicted the words of Jesus in John 5:24...." Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me HAS EVERLASTING LIFE, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. " .....unless he sins willfully? Sorry, I don't see that part in His promise.
In Heb.10, the author is speaking of they who reject the sacrifice of Jesus. Therefore there is no longer a sacrifice for them. The old ones have been removed and replaced by His one sacrifice for sin. But John, in 1John 2:1, said that if we sin we have an advocate with the Father, namely Jesus. His sacrifice is a perpetual offering for sin.

In Rev.2:20-22, Jesus refers to those whom He calls "MY SERVANTS", who were being beguiled to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. His answer to this was to assure them that they would be chastened with great tribulation (trouble) unless they repented of these. This is how Jesus has chosen to deal with a sinning servant of His. Chastening. I think we should just let Him decide what constitutes the giving back of eternal life.

We received life by grace, through faith. We give it back through the changing of our minds away from faith. The unfortunate thing is that the bible gives an example of this in Galatians. I call it unfortunate because the same example infiltrates the church even today. It is the delusion that we are to add our own obedience into the arena of justification. Therefore, if I can give back justification to life by sinning, then by default, I keep it by not sinning. So the formula for salvation then becomes..."we are justified by faith and not sinning."

Allow me to use the bible terms for this...We would be justified by faith and then afterward, also by the keeping of the law. This is essentially what you are saying, whether you realize it or not.

This doctrine of leaven is being peddled throughout the church and is alive and well on this website. It is not worded so abruptly as I just put it. It is more subtle. I am merely bringing to light what it amounts to.

It amounts to the conclusion that the cross, the sacrifice for sin, applies only to those who don't sin anymore. How absurd!

We spoke of this already williemac. You keep saying that it's my definition, and you then apply it only to unbelievers. This does NOT only apply to unbelievers, as per verse 22 starts talking about those who are saved. He is speaking to have us draw near, then speaks of us holding fast OUR PROFESSION of faith. This is undoubtedly speaking to the saved. And then he speaks of provoking each other to GOOD WORKS, then speaks of exhorting one another. And then gives an exhortation himself about those who sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth. This is not unbelievers, but those who HAVE FAITH. He then compares the punishment to a JEWISH BELIEVER WHO HAD SINNED WILLFULLY AFTER KNOWING THE TRUTH, DESPISING MOSES LAW. He then explains how the punishment will be much sorer for US, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, TO TOSS IT AWAY.

Now if that, dear Williemac, you do not agree with, then we must agree to disagree. The willfull sinners in this passage are those who are saved already. The definition of willful sin is understood when reading the Scriptures. It is explained in verse 39 as those who "draw back into perdition". These are believers, who have chosen their sins after being saved, and have gone back into sin. A soul who sins, and repents, is not one who draws back into perdition. That is not defined as "willful sin". It is the soul that draws back into sin, and does not repent.

That is not how the formula works, nor is it the conclusion I am drawing towards. Do you know why Paul said that not the hearers of the law are justified but the doers of the law? Because those who do not keep the law are not justified. Never is it said to be something that saves you, throughout the entire Scriptures (which I am certain you agree). But it is something that will inhibit you if you REFUSE to obey. That make sense? Therefore one must simply believe to be saved. THEN they must stay in obedience to keep their salvation. No, obedience was not how they were saved. Initially one must believe, then are they required to do. Their doing, or not doing, then affects their salvation after they are saved. Their not doing will prevent them from entering into the Kingdom.

Faith saves you, but as is stated without works, your faith is DEAD. Meaning completely useless. That salvation you had previously believed you obtained is tossed aside worthless, because you were as the branch that was grafted into the tree, but then bore not good fruit, but evil fruit. And if you bear evil fruit after being grafted in, your faith is null and void. You will be cut off again.

 

[Axehead]

Christians live by the very life of Christ...against which there is no law.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Faith saves you, but as is stated without works, your faith is DEAD. Meaning completely useless. That salvation you had previously believed you obtained is tossed aside worthless, because you were as the branch that was grafted into the tree, but then bore not good fruit, but evil fruit. And if you bear evil fruit after being grafted in, your faith is null and void. You will be cut off again.

When faith works, it bears these fruits:

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things [there] is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

This is how we know we have a faith with works.

 

[Raeneske]

Christians live by the very life of Christ...against which there is no law.

When faith works, it bears these fruits:

The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. Against such things [there] is no law. Galatians 5:22-23

This is how we know we have a faith with works.

Are you two saying the same thing? I am trying to understand if you are saying "There is no law" for the Christian believers, are you saying the commandments do not exist for Christians.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Are you two saying the same thing? I am trying to understand if you are saying "There is no law" for the Christian believers, are you saying the commandments do not exist for Christians.

Oh there is law; it's just not the law of Moses anymore for those in Christ. All the righteousness foreshadowed by the law has been fulfilled and now resides within us in Christ; an external law is for the disobedient and lawless:

For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of sin and of death (i.e., law of Moses). Romans 8:2

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., from the law of Moses to the law of the spirit of life in Christ). Hebrews 7:11-12

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Oh there is law; it's just not the law of Moses anymore for those in Christ. All the righteousness foreshadowed by the law has been fulfilled and now resides within us in Christ; an external law is for the disobedient and lawless:

For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of sin and of death (i.e., law of Moses). Romans 8:2

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., from the law of Moses to the law of the spirit of life in Christ). Hebrews 7:11-12

Assuming I'm following you correctly? I would then ask you what 'LAW of Moses'? Are you referring to the Ten commandments, and if so, then I would like you to explain to me why Paul bothers to cite even one of them.

Case in point.

Eph 6:1-3__ Exodus 20:12 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

 

[williemac]

We spoke of this already williemac. You keep saying that it's my definition, and you then apply it only to unbelievers. This does NOT only apply to unbelievers, as per verse 22 starts talking about those who are saved. He is speaking to have us draw near, then speaks of us holding fast OUR PROFESSION of faith. This is undoubtedly speaking to the saved. And then he speaks of provoking each other to GOOD WORKS, then speaks of exhorting one another. And then gives an exhortation himself about those who sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth. This is not unbelievers, but those who HAVE FAITH. He then compares the punishment to a JEWISH BELIEVER WHO HAD SINNED WILLFULLY AFTER KNOWING THE TRUTH, DESPISING MOSES LAW. He then explains how the punishment will be much sorer for US, THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF CHRIST, TO TOSS IT AWAY.

Heb.10, Vs.39 speaks of falling back into perdition through unbelief. I have never said that Heb.10:26 is about those who never heard or accepted the gospel. The passage is about those who fall back. You said it yourself. We are to hold fast our profession of faith. So what would be the opposite? Letting go of our faith. Vs. 39 does not say we are of those who work for the saving of the soul. It says we believe to the saving of the soul. If you recall, Heb.6:1-6 relates to those who fall away. It specifically says that they cannot be renewed again to repentance. It says this is impossible. You say that one can sin and repent. However, your take on Heb.10:26 is that this is the same as falling away (willful sin...falling back to perdition). The author must be confused, contradicting himself. Or else we are speaking of two different things in these two references.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Assuming I'm following you correctly? I would then ask you what 'LAW of Moses'? Are you referring to the Ten commandments, and if so, then I would like you to explain to me why Paul bothers to cite even one of them.
Case in point.
Eph 6:1-3__ Exodus 20:12 Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

I'm referring to all of the laws that Moses wrote, which are epitomized by the 10 commandments. The law of Moses is holy and good for man. It points sinners to GOD's righteousness, but it is not righteousness itself. It is good for education in righteousness, but it cannot bring righteousness. It can only point to faith, which along with love is the new law.

 

[Episkopos]

Who believes that what was once an abomination to God is now no longer an abomination now that we are Christians?

 

[Levi]

Who believes that what was once an abomination to God is now no longer an abomination now that we are Christians?

You couldn't be trying to imply what God sees as abominations aren't "covered and hidden" in the New Covenant.......

......the nerve!

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You couldn't be trying to imply what God sees as abominations aren't "covered and hidden" in the New Covenant.......

......the nerve!

I recommend that you strive to make sure your nakedness is covered

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:11-14

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Revelation 16:15

 

[Levi]

I recommend that you strive to make sure your nakedness is covered

And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen. Matthew 22:11-14

Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Revelation 16:15

And what you have said was THE POINT!

 

[Axehead]

Oh there is law; it's just not the law of Moses anymore for those in Christ. All the righteousness foreshadowed by the law has been fulfilled and now resides within us in Christ; an external law is for the disobedient and lawless:


For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of sin and of death (i.e., law of Moses). Romans 8:2

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., from the law of Moses to the law of the spirit of life in Christ). Hebrews 7:11-12

Spot on, CRFTD!!

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!!

 

[Raeneske]

Oh there is law; it's just not the law of Moses anymore for those in Christ. All the righteousness foreshadowed by the law has been fulfilled and now resides within us in Christ; an external law is for the disobedient and lawless:

For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of sin and of death (i.e., law of Moses). Romans 8:2

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., from the law of Moses to the law of the spirit of life in Christ). Hebrews 7:11-12

The Law of Moses is based of God's 10 Commandments, and the life of Christ. What is gone is the ceremonies depicting the Messiah. What is not gone, is the 10 Commandments. God is jealous of His law, and I fear some may learn that far too late. If the 10 Commandments could simply be changed (as so many claim it can be done away with) then Jesus Christ would never have had to die for you. God simply would have to change His 10 Commandments, He would say "Ye are free". But the fact that Jesus had to die proves that the 10 Commandments cannot be changed. They demanded their punishment. Now the punishment has been paid. But if you choose to continually walk in transgression to the 10 Commandments, the law again demands punishment.

Hebrews 7:11 is quoted out of context, as it is referring to the law of the priesthood. Not the 10 Commandments.

Also, JB is right. You can find commandments recited in the New Testament. If they were not something you should be following, why are you admonished to follow them?


Maybe I am wrong, but it seems you are trying to say the 10 Commandments are the law of Moses.

Heb.10, Vs.39 speaks of falling back into perdition through unbelief. I have never said that Heb.10:26 is about those who never heard or accepted the gospel. The passage is about those who fall back. You said it yourself. We are to hold fast our profession of faith. So what would be the opposite? Letting go of our faith. Vs. 39 does not say we are of those who work for the saving of the soul. It says we believe to the saving of the soul. If you recall, Heb.6:1-6 relates to those who fall away. It specifically says that they cannot be renewed again to repentance. It says this is impossible. You say that one can sin and repent. However, your take on Heb.10:26 is that this is the same as falling away (willful sin...falling back to perdition). The author must be confused, contradicting himself. Or else we are speaking of two different things in these two references.

Willemac, we are agreeing to disagree now. I have pointed out the fact that you have to have faith, I said that he refers to those that have faith. But he talks about doing WORKS as well, things all Christians should have. He then compares someone who draws back into sin in these days, as a Jewish believer who despises moses LAW. THE LAW is being talked about here. Not just faith. Agreeing to disagree, starting now.

 

[mjrhealth]

ChristRoseFromTheDead, on 09 Jun 2013 - 11:15 AM, said:

Oh there is law; it's just not the law of Moses anymore for those in Christ. All the righteousness foreshadowed by the law has been fulfilled and now resides within us in Christ; an external law is for the disobedient and lawless:

For the law of the spirit of the life in Christ Jesus freed me from the law of sin and of death (i.e., law of Moses). Romans 8:2

If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, for under it the people received the law (of Moses) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law (i.e., from the law of Moses to the law of the spirit of life in Christ). Hebrews 7:11-12

Spot on, CRFTD!!

The law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!!

Of course they where freed from teh Law, they where Jewish and before Christs Death and resurection they where under the law, for it was given to them, it was not given to the gentiles, we never had it. it is not ours, never was never will be, so why do christians think that by running to the old think it can save them, its not yours itys the old we have the new and better wine, but as it is written in the bible,

Luk_5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Do you get what He is saying, He is saying you have not accepted the new so you prefer the old, for if you had accepted the new than teh old would be foreign to you and you would rather just have the new, teh better covenant.

Whch is it, old or new, choose wisely??

Mat_9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

In all His love

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I'm referring to all of the laws that Moses wrote, which are epitomized by the 10 commandments. The law of Moses is holy and good for man. It points sinners to GOD's righteousness, but it is not righteousness itself. It is good for education in righteousness, but it cannot bring righteousness. It can only point to faith, which along with love is the new law.

OK, following along your train of thought. What is LOVE??

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

OK, following along your train of thought. What is LOVE??

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 John 4:10-11

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. 1 John 4:10-11

Beautiful. But now how do we love GOD?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Beautiful. But now how do we love GOD?

By believing "that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins" and loving the brothers.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

By believing "that he loved us, and sent his Son [to be] the propitiation for our sins" and loving the brothers.

Do you think there might be more to loving God than just our first response?

Also, how could we demonstrate God's love to our fellow brethren and indeed our neighbour?