The Moral Law not Abrogated by Christ to Believers

[Mungo]

I think it's called spiritual common sense.

In other words you made it up.

Before a man sins in the flesh he has already sinned in his mind. A spiritual law goes further than a behaviour law. Jesus said if we contemplate a deed against our brother...we have already done it before God.

A moral law is about keeping the outward show under control...like the Pharisees did. So a moral law contradicts a spiritual law. The real purpose of the law is to bring us to a spiritual dependence on God Himself. The law is spiritual.

Rom_7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

the law is spirtual: because of its God-given origin and its purpose in leading human being to God. Thus it does not belong to the world of earthbound natural humanity. (The New Jerome Bib,ical Commentary).

Paul is referring to the OT Law (SInai covenant) - the whole law - morals, statutes, precepts, ceremonial etc.; all of it given by God to the Israelites. God's eternal moral law is only a part of that.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

In other words you made it up.

No I didn't make up anything. The world talks about morals all of the time, but they never talk about righteousness. Morality is the substance of philosophers and the wise of this world, and those who want to look good among men. All of their morals will count for nothing, Righteousness is the substance of GOD and only concerns those who are spiritually minded. Pretty elementary, I think.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

No,

Not all of the Ten Commandments are moral laws (Saturday sabbath keeping the making of images are not), and there are moral laws not in the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).

You have to be kidding, right?

 

[John_8:32]

You have to be kidding, right?

You know, it is always that pesky fourth one, isn't it?

From the Diaglott...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

 

[Axehead]

No I didn't make up anything. The world talks about morals all of the time, but they never talk about righteousness. Morality is the substance of philosophers and the wise of this world, and those who want to look good among men. All of their morals will count for nothing, Righteousness is the substance of GOD and only concerns those who are spiritually minded. Pretty elementary, I think.

That is very true, CRD.

In Papua New Guinea, it is considered very moral to have many women for wives and considered very immoral to leave your tribe.

A college kid was asked what he thought about fornicating with his girlfriend and he said, we care about one another and are committed.

So, you are right, morality is relative and changes with the times and the cultures. Men even hold God as being immoral for killing women and children in the OT. But God is not about "morality".

Christianity is NOT Morality!

Morals are the acceptable behavior based on the mores of a social grouping. Jesus did not come to give us a standardized moral code to which all should conform, but to give us His life whereby the divine character might be expressed through our behavior. (Christianity is not Morality )



"Morality is part of the condition of the fall. Now endowed with the power to define good and evil, to elaborate it, to know it and to pretend to obey it, man can no longer renounce this power which he has purchased so dearly. He must exercise it. He (fallen man) cannot live without morality." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 71)


"Christianity has nothing commensurate with any morality. It is the essence itself of revelation that rules out all ethical systematizing and all similarity with a morality. The Christian life is not a life conformed to a morality, but one conformed to a word revealed, present, and living." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 86)


"One of the essential rules of the Christian life is never to ask a non-Christian to conduct himself like a Christian. If grace really renews a person; if the Christian life is already evidence of the life of someone who is in Christ; if obedience to the Christian ethic is the loving response of a recipient of grace to Him who has shown His love by bestowing grace, then how can one ask a man who has not received, or who did not know that he was under grace, to act as though . . . as though his person were renewed, as though he had experienced grace bestowed upon him, as though he knew that he was the object of God's love? The obligation placed upon him is nothing but restraint. The morality to which he submits can only be based upon the fear of punishment, and God becomes then the great condemner. That is what regularly happens in so-called Christian societies." (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do.Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 104)


"In the eyes of our contemporaries, Christianity is morality first of all. And have not many epochs of Christian history been characterized by the church's insistence upon actions and conduct? ...There cannot be a Christian ethic. The whole of revelation is against it, and every attempt to construct such a morality, no matter how faithful, is a betrayal of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ, and in the last analysis an imposture. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do.Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201)


"The Christian...life is dynamic. Each situation, like each person, is novel. The command of God is not a general rule, or collection of rules. It is always particular for a person at this moment, in this situation. In the unity recovered through grace, in the union with God, we are in the presence of quite a different ethical orientation. It can only be lived in Christ. There is no Christian life without the action of the Holy Spirit, without His inspiration and guidance. The necessity for God's intervening to guide our lives puts an end to our pretending to erect a Christian morality. Christian living does not exist as a morality; for he who lives it, lives by it. He does not follow commandments nor achieve objectives. He lives by the word of God which nourishes him, guides him, and carries him. There is not one Christian life. There are as many Christian lives as there are Christians. One lives in ever-surprising novelty. (Jacques Ellul - To Will and To Do. Pilgrim Press. 1969. pg. 201-219)


"Christianity seems at first to be all about morality, all about duties and rules and guilt and virtue, yet it leads you on, out of all that, into something beyond. One has a glimpse of a country where they do not talk of those things, except perhaps as a joke. Every one there is filled full with what we should call goodness as a mirror is filled with light. But they do not call it goodness. They do not call it anything. They are not thinking of it. They are too busy looking at the source from which it comes." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pgs. 130,131)


"The Christian is in a different position from other people who are trying to do good. The Christian thinks any good he does come from the Christ-life inside him. He does not think God will love us because we are good, but that God will make us good because He loves us..." (C. S. Lewis - Mere Christianity. Macmillan Publishing. 1978. pg. 64)

 

[Mungo]

You have to be kidding, right?

Why do you think I am kidding?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Why do you think I am kidding?

Not all of the Ten Commandments are moral laws (Saturday sabbath keeping the making of images are not), and there are moral laws not in the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).





# Don't you know that the 'ten words'(moral law) were extrapolated into civil laws for Israel. Moreover, they were summated by the Lord Jesus himself under the greatest commandments, which are nothing more than a condensed form of the 'ten commandments'.

In fact if you look closely at the various laws of Israel and their application, you will see the application of God's moral laws in action.

So, fornication,fraud and making of images etc are all covered and much,much more.

 

[Mungo]

Not all of the Ten Commandments are moral laws (Saturday sabbath keeping the making of images are not), and there are moral laws not in the Ten Commandments (e.g. fornication and fraud).





# Don't you know that the 'ten words'(moral law) were extrapolated into civil laws for Israel. Moreover, they were summated by the Lord Jesus himself under the greatest commandments, which are nothing more than a condensed form of the 'ten commandments'.

In fact if you look closely at the various laws of Israel and their application, you will see the application of God's moral laws in action.

So, fornication,fraud and making of images etc are all covered and much,much more.

There is nothing intrinsicly moral or immoral about making images. It's worshipping them as gods that was wrong anf that is what the first commandment was about (or first two depending on your numbering).

The Temple had many images in them. The bronze serpent was an image. All commanded by God.

Did he break his own eternal moral laws? Of course not.

God forbade the Israelites from making images, but that in was God's laws for them. There is no such prohibition in the NT

God commanded the Israelite men "Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard" (Lev 19:27)

Is that a law for us now?

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

There is nothing intrinsicly moral or immoral about making images. It's worshipping them as gods that was wrong anf that is what the first commandment was about (or first two depending on your numbering).

The Temple had many images in them. The bronze serpent was an image. All commanded by God.

Did he break his own eternal moral laws? Of course not.

God forbade the Israelites from making images, but that in was God's laws for them. There is no such prohibition in the NT

God commanded the Israelite men "Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard" (Lev 19:27)

Is that a law for us now?

Mungo, you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm not walking down that road with you.

 

[Mungo]

Mungo, you're being deliberately obtuse. I'm not walking down that road with you.

If you can't answer my points then that's OK. I'll leave you in your errors.

 

[John_8:32]

There is nothing intrinsicly moral or immoral about making images. It's worshipping them as gods that was wrong anf that is what the first commandment was about (or first two depending on your numbering).

The Temple had many images in them. The bronze serpent was an image. All commanded by God.

Did he break his own eternal moral laws? Of course not.

God forbade the Israelites from making images, but that in was God's laws for them. There is no such prohibition in the NT

Hmmm,

1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

God commanded the Israelite men "Do not clip your hair at the temples, nor trim the edges of your beard" (Lev 19:27)

Is that a law for us now?

You think it appropriate to shave your head in a circle to honor Ra the sun god? You think it appropriate to trim the hair on your face in the fashion of those who followed the gods of Egypt? You should investigate where those prescriptions come from before condemning them.

All according to whose morals you are using as the standard.

 

[Mungo]

Hmmm,

1Co 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

There is nothing intrinsicly moral or immoral about making images. It's worshipping them as gods that was wrong and that is what the first commandment was about (or first two depending on your numbering).

The Temple had many images in them. The bronze serpent was an image. All commanded by God.

Did he break his own eternal moral laws? Of course not.

God forbade the Israelites from making images, but that in was God's laws for them. There is no such prohibition in the NT

 

[John_8:32]

There is nothing intrinsicly moral or immoral about making images. It's worshipping them as gods that was wrong and that is what the first commandment was about (or first two depending on your numbering).

The Temple had many images in them. The bronze serpent was an image. All commanded by God.

Did he break his own eternal moral laws? Of course not.

God forbade the Israelites from making images, but that in was God's laws for them. There is no such prohibition in the NT

And I just cited three.

 

[Mungo]

You think it appropriate to shave your head in a circle to honor Ra the sun god? You think it appropriate to trim the hair on your face in the fashion of those who followed the gods of Egypt? You should investigate where those prescriptions come from before condemning them.

All according to whose morals you are using as the standard.

Catholics do not shave their heads in honour of Ra the Sun God nor trim their facial hair in the fashion of those who followed the gods of Egypt.

You need to apply a bit of logic. Similar does not mean equivalent.

And I just cited three.

No you didn't.

Making images is not idolotry.

It is the worship of false gods represented by the images that is idolatry.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Catholics do not shave their heads in honour of Ra the Sun God nor trim their facial hair in the fashion of those who followed the gods of Egypt.

You need to apply a bit of logic. Similar does not mean equivalent.



No you didn't.

Making images is not idolotry.

It is the worship of false gods represented by the images that is idolatry.

Why form an image in the first place, einstein? Since this is a theological discussion then any suggestion outside the context of worship is irrelevant.

 

[Mungo]

Why form an image in the first place, einstein?

We make images for many reasons. I have photographs (images) of my parents, children and grandson in my sitting room but I don't worship them. They are visual reminders of them and events in our lives.

Since this is a theological discussion then any suggestion outside the context of worship is irrelevant.

No it isn't

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

We make images for many reasons. I have photographs (images) of my parents, children and grandson in my sitting room but I don't worship them. They are visual reminders of them and events in our lives.

But really, the ease of taking photographs is far removed from the effort it would take to carve or engrave an image. The latter would only be undertaken if the heart desired to worship a false god.

 

[Mungo]

But really, the ease of taking photographs is far removed from the effort it would take to carve or engrave an image. The latter would only be undertaken if the heart desired to worship a false god.

Is that claim based on evidence or prejudice? If evidence then please present it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Is that claim based on evidence or prejudice? If evidence then please present it.

What I said is self-evident. It takes mere seconds to take a photograph, which is generally taken to bring an experience to remembrance. Spending hours, days or weeks crafting an idol that only represents a cherished idea of the mind is something altogether different (idolatry). You are merely trying to assign equivalence through word similarity (image).

 

[Mungo]

What I said is self-evident. It takes mere seconds to take a photograph, which is generally taken to bring an experience to remembrance. Spending hours, days or weeks crafting an idol that only represents a cherished idea of the mind is something altogether different (idolatry). You are merely trying to assign equivalence through word similarity (image).

Claims that it is self evident means you have no evidence.


How long did it take to make the Lincoln Memorial or carve the heads of Presidents on Mount Rushmore (to take but two examples)?

Were they carved in mere seconds with no effort?

Were they made to be worshipped?