The most "evident" truth of scripture

[HiddenManna]

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Here again Paul confronts not some portions of the law, but the heart of the law, the Ten Commandments and speaks in clear terms that the New Covenant is not likened unto the Old. But that the Old Covenant ministered condemnation and death. The New Covenant ministers righteousness and life. This again is most "evident" for those who dare to bring their flesh to the judgment of the Cross.

You may be confusing the words of the law with the works of faith. The written code, as you call it, is what you are basing a bad understanding of grace on. So you yourself are also trying to justify yourself because of a written code.

But the work of God is that we walk like Jesus and do no sin.

That makes no biblical sense? Do you have scripture that I might understand your point?

 

[Episkopos]

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Here again Paul confronts not some portions of the law, but the heart of the law, the Ten Commandments and speaks in clear terms that the New Covenant is not likened unto the Old. But that the Old Covenant ministered condemnation and death. The New Covenant ministers righteousness and life. This again is most "evident" for those who dare to bring their flesh to the judgment of the Cross.

That makes no biblical sense? Do you have scripture that I might understand your point?

I'm using your own interpretation back onto you.


You don't see the works of the law as Judaism...but that is what Paul is talking about.

You see works of the law as obedience to the law you feel is not required?

 

[HiddenManna]

I'm using your own interpretation back onto you.


You don't see the works of the law as Judaism...but that is what Paul is talking about.

You see works of the law as obedience to the law you feel is not required?

The law is the law, whether a jew or a gentile attempts to justify themselves by the law, they have both rejected Gods Righteousness and are going about to establish their own.

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

 

[Episkopos]

The law is the law, whether a jew or a gentile attempts to justify themselves by the law, they have both rejected Gods Righteousness and are going about to establish their own.

Rom 10:3

For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Rom 10:5

For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.
Rom 10:6

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above
Rom 10:7

Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
Rom 10:8

But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11

For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:12

For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

A person who obeys God is not trying to justify himself....his duty is to obey God.

Any scheme of men that seeks to justify themselves whether by act or by belief is wrong.

 

[HiddenManna]

A person who obeys God is not trying to justify himself....his duty is to obey God.

Any scheme of men that seeks to justify themselves whether by act or by belief is wrong.

Well as the scriptures declare "the letter kills and the spirit gives life" That no man can be justified by the law, IS EVIDENT

 

[Axehead]

We have a crisis where Christians are being enticed into following Judaism?

Maybe he is talking about the present day "Hebrew Roots Movement". That would make sense to me.

 

[Episkopos]

Well as the scriptures declare "the letter kills and the spirit gives life" That no man can be justified by the law, IS EVIDENT

Who does this today?

Paul was talking about the influence of the Jews at the time to try making Gentile Christians into Jews.

So just who do you see trying to justify themselves through the deeds of the law?

 

[HiddenManna]

Maybe he is talking about the present day "Hebrew Roots Movement". That would make sense to me.

Whoever attempts to justify themselves by the "written code" of the law, Ten Commandments etc.... There are many who are seeking to justify themselves by the law.

Who does this today?

Paul was talking about the influence of the Jews at the time to try making Gentile Christians into Jews.

So just who do you see trying to justify themselves through the deeds of the law?

I know many, Ever heard anyone teach one must keep the sabbath day? Or that one must keep parts of the Ten Commandments to be justified?

 

[Episkopos]

Whoever attempts to justify themselves by the "written code" of the law, Ten Commandments etc.... There are many who are seeking to justify themselves by the law.

I know many, Ever heard anyone teach one must keep the sabbath day? Or that one must keep parts of the Ten Commandments to be justified?

You are speaking of more than one thing here...

A Sabbath keeper is a person who indeed seeks justification by the law.

But any Christian who doesn't keep the whole law...even in his thinking...is not a follower of Christ. Jesus made the law HARDER not easier. This is to make it less attainable to those who seek to justify themselves by it. SO ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST can keep the law perfectly.

We know a tree by it's fruit.

One who transgresses the law with ease is LAWLESS and will be cut off from Christ.

Those who overcome sin through the abiding in Christ will reign with Him.

 

[Axehead]

Yes, there are still Judaizers, today. That spirit is still around.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, there are still Judaizers, today. That spirit is still around.

I think the OP is looking at justifying the brand of lawless grace that abounds far more...

2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

The natural man is looking for a scheme that justifies a man who remains in his sins. But there is no such scheme in truth.

 

[HiddenManna]

You are speaking of more than one thing here...

A Sabbath keeper is a person who indeed seeks justification by the law.

But any Christian who doesn't keep the whole law...even in his thinking...is not a follower of Christ. Jesus made the law HARDER not easier. This is to make it less attainable to those who seek to justify themselves by it. SO ONLY THOSE IN CHRIST can keep the law perfectly.

We know a tree by it's fruit.

One who transgresses the law with ease is LAWLESS and will be cut off from Christ.

Those who overcome sin through the abiding in Christ will reign with Him.

Again, im not sure of your point? Do you have any scripture upon which you base your opinions?

Of couse what you are speaking is a standard that no man can keep and is the purpose of the law, to show man that he cannot keep the standard of the law.

Rom 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15

Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16

Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17

And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18

There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

 

[Levi]

Well, he is a self-proclaimed Calvinist.

 

[Episkopos]

Again, im not sure of your point? Do you have any scripture upon which you base your opinions?

Of couse what you are speaking is a standard that no man can keep and is the purpose of the law, to show man that he cannot keep the standard of the law.

Rom 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15

Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16

Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17

And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18

There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Again, im not sure of your point? Do you have any scripture upon which you base your opinions?

Of couse what you are speaking is a standard that no man can keep and is the purpose of the law, to show man that he cannot keep the standard of the law.

Rom 3:10

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11

There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 3:12

They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Rom 3:13

Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
Rom 3:14

Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
Rom 3:15

Their feet are swift to shed blood:
Rom 3:16

Destruction and misery are in their ways:
Rom 3:17

And the way of peace have they not known:
Rom 3:18

There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Rom 3:23

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

What we can't do in our own strength we are made very capable of through His grace. Or do you think that Christ in us is less powerful than sin????

Those who abide in Christ cannot sin!!!

 

[HiddenManna]

Well, he is a self-proclaimed Calvinist.

Well I take the scriptures as the truth, in that Calvin understood the absolute curruption of all flesh, I agree with his understanding.
Now to this point no insults have been made or taken, but it usally ends up that those who can not debate sound doctrine turn to personal insults. For this God has given me the abilty to ingnore and spiritual power to withstand all insults, without being touched by them.

What we can't do in our own strength we are made very capable of through His grace. Or do you think that Christ in us is less powerful than sin????

Those who abide in Christ cannot sin!!!

I agree, "In Him" we have no sin, so we cannot be under the law, for law is not made for the righteous, but for the sinner.

 

[Levi]

Well I take the scriptures as the truth, in that Calvin understood the absolute curruption of all flesh, I agree with his understanding.
Now to this point no insults have been made or taken, but it usally ends up that those who can not debate sound doctrine turn to personal insults. For this God has given me the abilty to ingnore and spiritual power to withstand all insults, without being touched by them.

:lol:
I didn't think calling you a Calvinist would be an insult to you.

Back to the topic at hand......

Christ fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us so that we might live it out perfectly. It is no longer I, but Christ living in me. When we are loving the Lord and our neighbor, it's difficult to sin against them.

 

[Episkopos]

:lol:
I didn't think calling you a Calvinist would be an insult to you.

Back to the topic at hand......

Christ fulfilled the righteousness of the law in us so that we might live it out perfectly. It is no longer I, but Christ living in me. When we are loving the Lord and our neighbor, it's difficult to sin against them.

Very good! It amazes me that anyone who has even the smallest reasoning power would deny this.

 

[HiddenManna]

Very good! It amazes me that anyone who has even the smallest reasoning power would deny this.

Again the insults
You cannot debate the truth I have presented from the scriptures, so just make some half-hidden insult? I tell you if you contend with the wisdom God has given to me, your insults will need to be must stronger

Why not just move on to the next guy and ignore me, because you have already lost this debate,

 

[williemac]

We have a crisis where Christians are being enticed into following Judaism?

We have the same crisis that has always opposed the gospel. It is found in the subject of justification. We can talk about works all day long. Works of faith...works of law...these are actually both similar and valid. ...until the motive for them becomes for the purpose of attaining or keeping everlasting life.

We are never to be discouraged from doing the right things. In fact we should stir up love and good works in one another. But in stirring these up, what do we use for the motivation? This needs to be clarified, because many of these kinds of threads go off into many directions without identifying the root of the issue. Very seldom do we find people disputing the need for good works or the availability of the Holy Spirit to empower us in our walk. These are not the issue.

The issue is self justification.... period! God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Self exaltation is at the root of the real issue, whether in man or in the fallen angel. Sin is merely a symptom. But part of the strategy of the enemy is to use it to produce guilt and shame and thus entice us into attempting to get right with God by our own actions and/or merit.
So it goes back to the original transgression of Lucifer. He wanted to take on God's place and role. Similarly, any attempt on our part to accomplish only what God can accomplish, amounts to defeating ourselves by our own hand by reversing roles with God. There is only ONE savior. There is only ONE life giver. It takes humility to let go and receive life freely.

 

[Episkopos]

We have the same crisis that has always opposed the gospel. It is found in the subject of justification. We can talk about works all day long. Works of faith...works of law...these are actually both similar and valid. ...until the motive for them becomes for the purpose of attaining or keeping everlasting life.

We are never to be discouraged from doing the right things. In fact we should stir up love and good works in one another. But in stirring these up, what do we use for the motivation? This needs to be clarified, because many of these kinds of threads go off into many directions without identifying the root of the issue. Very seldom do we find people disputing the need for good works or the availability of the Holy Spirit to empower us in our walk. These are not the issue.

The issue is self justification.... period!

Are you justifying yourself according to your belief?