The most "evident" truth of scripture

[HiddenManna]

We have the same crisis that has always opposed the gospel. It is found in the subject of justification. We can talk about works all day long. Works of faith...works of law...these are actually both similar and valid. ...until the motive for them becomes for the purpose of attaining or keeping everlasting life.

We are never to be discouraged from doing the right things. In fact we should stir up love and good works in one another. But in stirring these up, what do we use for the motivation? This needs to be clarified, because many of these kinds of threads go off into many directions without identifying the root of the issue. Very seldom do we find people disputing the need for good works or the availability of the Holy Spirit to empower us in our walk. These are not the issue.

The issue is self justification.... period! God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud. Self exaltation is at the root of the real issue, whether in man or in the fallen angel. Sin is merely a symptom. But part of the strategy of the enemy is to use it to produce guilt and shame and thus entice us into attempting to get right with God by our own actions and/or merit.
So it goes back to the original transgression of Lucifer. He wanted to take on God's place and role. Similarly, any attempt on our part to accomplish only what God can accomplish, amounts to defeating ourselves by our own hand by reversing roles with God. There is only ONE savior. There is only ONE life giver. It takes humility to let go and receive life freely.

Excellent post, and this is the heart of the issue. There is none good, no not one. Herein is the "EVIDENT" purpose of the law.
That no man should have confidence in his flesh.

Php 3:3

For we are the circumcision, which worship God in spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence ithe flesh.
Php 3:4


Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Php 3:5

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Php 3:6

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Php 3:7

But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Php 3:8

Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Php 3:9

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Episkopos]

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Is the righteousness of God shown in us by a continuing propensity to sin?

Or is it shown by a man who has ceased from his own works in order to be indwelt by Jesus Christ in order to fulfill all righteousness in us that believe?

So then a man who walks just as Jesus did...will sin to the same degree that Jesus sinned...which is not at all!

If we abide in Christ we cannot sin because we are filled to overflowing with HIS life.

 

[HiddenManna]

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Is the righteousness of God shown in us by a continuing propensity to sin?

Or is it shown by a man who has ceased from his own works in order to be indwelt by Jesus Christ in order to fulfill all righteousness in us that believe?

So then a man who walks just as Jesus did...will sin to the same degree that Jesus sinned...which is not at all!

If we abide in Christ we cannot sin because we are filled to overflowing with HIS life.

Here is the ONLY biblical answer to sin.

Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

 

[Episkopos]

Here is the ONLY biblical answer to sin.

Rom 6:11

Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14

For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

You forgot the beginning...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

 

[williemac]

Are you justifying yourself according to your belief?

My belief is derived from years of prayer, study, meditation, correction, and hopefully I can say, from revelation.

Faith exalts God, my friend, not man. But what was Paul's reply to this? Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. I am not impressed with your throwing this question my way to imply self justification. That was a low blow, thank you.

 

[Episkopos]

My belief is derived from years of prayer, study, meditation, correction, and hopefully I can say, from revelation.

Faith exalts God, my friend, not man. But what was Paul's reply to this? Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. I am not impressed with your throwing this question my way to imply self justification. That was a low blow, thank you.

I am responding to what you said and the way you said it.

What counts is that the life of Jesus be made manifest in the world ..and that comes about by us going to the cross of Christ..


2Co 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.
2Co 4:8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair;
2Co 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
2Co 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
2Co 4:11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

 

[Axehead]

Following Christ and relating to Him and to others is a "love walk" and He wants to mature us in His type of Love which is much different than the world's.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We are to allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives and to bring ourselves into harmony with God's will. His will not ours.

His will, operative in our lives will have us abiding closely in Him and walking, talking, thinking, praying, loving, dying as Jesus did. That is the operation of the Spirit of God in man. "Nevertheless, I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me."


Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Axehead

 

[HiddenManna]

You forgot the beginning...

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

of course, when one is set free from the law which is the strength of sin, one is set free from sins power. And by the power of Gods unearned and undeserved grace, one overcomes the lust of the flesh.

My belief is derived from years of prayer, study, meditation, correction, and hopefully I can say, from revelation.

Faith exalts God, my friend, not man. But what was Paul's reply to this? Therefore having been justified by faith, we have peace with God. I am not impressed with your throwing this question my way to imply self justification. That was a low blow, thank you.

Yes personal insults seem to be the best defender of the doctrines of some. I have never met a legalist that did not turn to insults when their doctrines where shown to be false.

Following Christ and relating to Him and to others is a "love walk" and He wants to mature us in His type of Love which is much different than the world's.

Rom_13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
Gal_5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We are to allow the Holy Spirit to work in our lives and to bring ourselves into harmony with God's will. His will not ours.

His will, operative in our lives will have us abiding closely in Him and walking, talking, thinking, praying, loving, dying as Jesus did. That is the operation of the Spirit of God in man. "Nevertheless, I live, yet not I but Christ liveth in me."


Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Axehead

I agree that it is by the Spirit not the flesh, the flesh cannot work the righteousness of the law, which is fulfilled in love. So what purpose does the written code, have but as a witness to Gods Righteousness.

Rom 3:19

Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
Rom 3:20

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

 

[williemac]

I am responding to what you said and the way you said it.

It was a response alright. But it was never going to be a discussion about what I said or how I said it. It had nothing to do with either. I'm not even sure what the point of it was, but it felt like a sarcasm. However, if I offended you, then that was never my intention. However, I can't help it if it offends some people that a true believer, one who has the Spirit, can indeed sin and not be condemned for it. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Did He change His mind?

Yes, we are a new creation. And yes, I do appreciate your reference to 12Cor.4:7. And yes, I do agree that we are called to walk as He walked. But our justification happened already. The passage I quoted was in the past tense.." having been justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Rom.5:1)...And John 5:24 is in the present tense.."we HAVE everlasting life (by faith), and future tense.." we shall not come into judgement".

What happens in our life as believers is not for the purpose of justifying us before God. If you agree with that, then we have no dispute or disagreement.

God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful. This is what all of life has in common. It bears fruit. It reproduces. If it refuses, it is of no value (re; the fig tree with no fruit...the man who buried his talent)
A Christian who is bearing fruit but still struggles with sin, has value and is not in the category of refusal to bear fruit. Like it or not. Who is he who condemns?

 

[mjrhealth]

The original post was to teh Jews, the law was for them, us gentiles came to Christ under grace, we never had teh law, it was not ours, never given to us, but so many run after them as if to prove themselves worthy.

In all his Love

 

[HiddenManna]

The original post was to teh Jews, the law was for them, us gentiles came to Christ under grace, we never had teh law, it was not ours, never given to us, but so many run after them as if to prove themselves worthy.

In all his Love

Well you must understand that many Christians are looking to the law and the works of the law to justify themselves before God? You are not trying to claim that a Gentile believer can be justified by the law are you?

 

[Episkopos]

It was a response alright. But it was never going to be a discussion about what I said or how I said it. It had nothing to do with either. I'm not even sure what the point of it was, but it felt like a sarcasm. However, if I offended you, then that was never my intention. However, I can't help it if it offends some people that a true believer, one who has the Spirit, can indeed sin and not be condemned for it. While we were yet sinners, Christ died for the ungodly. Did He change His mind?

What we must be careful of is stacking sin upon sin. Sin itself is bad enough...but the Pharisees would seek to justify their sin because of the righteousness of the law they claimed to be keeping. So ANY claim to righteousness by ANY man IS self-righteous.

Yes, we are a new creation. And yes, I do appreciate your reference to 12Cor.4:7. And yes, I do agree that we are called to walk as He walked. But our justification happened already. The passage I quoted was in the past tense.." having been justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Rom.5:1)...And John 5:24 is in the present tense.."we HAVE everlasting life (by faith), and future tense.." we shall not come into judgement".

Justification is a moving target...as is our own righteousness. God's righteousness remains only in Christ. So we must be careful to live where He is...in other words we must be filled with the Spirit. No one who walks in their own strength, although they may have been previously justified, can claim the righteousness of God form themselves. There is no "done deal" salvation. We are in the midst of a race! Run to win!

What happens in our life as believers is not for the purpose of justifying us before God. If you agree with that, then we have no dispute or disagreement.

We are living to bring glory to God with our lives. What we do continues to justify us before God or it doesn't. We are still in play!

God told Adam and Eve to be fruitful. This is what all of life has in common. It bears fruit. It reproduces. If it refuses, it is of no value (re; the fig tree with no fruit...the man who buried his talent)
A Christian who is bearing fruit but still struggles with sin, has value and is not in the category of refusal to bear fruit. Like it or not. Who is he who condemns?

This depends on what we claim for ourselves. The sin of the Pharisees was doubled because they said..."we see!" whereas they did not.

So we must be careful not to add to our sins with false claims.

 

[HiddenManna]

Justification is not a "moving target" it is established forever in the Cross of Christ. There is no other justification

 

[Episkopos]

Justification is not a "moving target" it is established forever in the Cross of Christ. There is no other justification

Then you don't understand justification and righteousness.

Holiness never changes...because holiness is always in God alone.

God's righteousness never changes because it is found in God alone.

But whatever is in us...can change and does indeed change. This is both good and bad. It is good because we can repent and return to God for His forgiveness. But this is also bad because we can stray and do our own thing at any time.

So God is a constant but we are not. Our salvation only remains when we remain constant in Him...where He is. We can't take Jesus out to sin with us.

 

[HiddenManna]

Then you don't understand justification and righteousness.

Holiness never changes...because holiness is always in God alone.

God's righteousness never changes because it is found in God alone.

But whatever is in us...can change and does indeed change. This is both good and bad. It is good because we can repent and return to God for His forgiveness. But this is also bad because we can stray and do our own thing at any time.

So God is a constant but we are not. Our salvation only remains when we remain constant in Him...where He is. We can't take Jesus out to sin with us.

well of course I do, and these things of God are not based upon man or mans abilty to keep the law, but based upon faith in Christ and the Spirit of God working in and through the believer.

 

[Episkopos]

well of course I do, and these things of God are not based upon man or mans abilty to keep the law, but based upon faith in Christ and the Spirit of God working in and through the believer.

Exactly! We provide the forsaking of all other things....and God provides the new place of abiding in Christ.

 

[HiddenManna]

Exactly! We provide the forsaking of all other things....and God provides the new place of abiding in Christ.

Sure, and the things of God are imputed to us who abide, and these things are fruit unto Gods Righteousness, not the effort of man to keep religious standards.

 

[Episkopos]

Sure, and the things of God are imputed to us who abide, and these things are fruit unto Gods Righteousness, not the effort of man to keep religious standards.

We do fulfill the perfect standards in Christ. That is the power of Christ in you...the hope of glory!

Anybody can fail the test....

 

[HiddenManna]

We do fulfill the perfect standards in Christ. That is the power of Christ in you...the hope of glory!

Anybody can fail the test....

Well I doubt that very much that some are keeping a "perfect standard" and the standard is perfect in that which Christ works through the Spirit, not the works of man or mans religious efforts.

 

[Levi]

Well I doubt that very much that some are keeping a "perfect standard" and the standard is perfect in that which Christ works through the Spirit, not the works of man or mans religious efforts.

Exactly, Christ is the overcomer, who lives where? IN US! He overcomes in us.

It's not rocket science.