I have no idea what you mean concerning Paul having some part in something. Do you mean to imply Paul had a part in writing the book of Luke?
We know when Paul was converted the book of Acts tells us
The mysteries in the Gospels “Who Do You Believe? The Witnessed Words of Jesus or Paul’s Private Vision?”
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We know when Paul was converted the book of Acts tells us
The writer of Luke and Acts, traditionally called Luke the physician, was not a witness of Jesus’ ministry, crucifixion, resurrection, or ascension. In the opening of his Gospel, he clearly explains how he got his information:
“Inasmuch as many have taken in hand to set in order a narrative of those things which have been fulfilled among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word delivered them to us, it seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write to you an orderly account, most excellent Theophilus, that you may know the certainty of those things in which you were instructed.” (Luke 1:1–4 NKJV)
Here Luke says that he relied on the testimony of eyewitnesses and ministers of the word—people who were there from the beginning of Jesus’ ministry. He gathered and investigated their reports carefully to make an orderly account. Luke most likely gathered his Gospel material from people who had been with Jesus from the start. This could have included the apostles, especially Peter and John, and other early disciples who witnessed Jesus’ works and teachings. Many believe he also spoke with Mary, the mother of Jesus, since his account includes unique details about Jesus’ birth and childhood not found elsewhere. He may have interviewed women who followed Jesus, like Mary Magdalene, Joanna, and Salome, and possibly James, the Lord’s brother, who later led the Jerusalem church. Luke carefully collected their memories, written records, and testimonies to create an accurate and orderly narrative, as he himself explained at the beginning of his Gospel.
In the book of Acts, Luke sometimes uses “we” language (for example, Acts 16:10–17; 20:5–15; 21:1–18; 27:1–28:16), showing that he personally joined Paul on parts of his missionary journeys. But regarding the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus, Luke was not present. His Gospel is based on careful research, interviews, and written accounts from those who saw and heard Jesus firsthand, most likely including apostles and early disciples.
Blessings.
No no evidence of that at all loke wrote it, it id obvious to me I know of no fault found in it.
yes but not exactly only approximately, I am not aware of any dated for paul'c conversion but if you have a reference I will gladly look it up.
Blessings.
Lets go with that, because I have known a few who believe that Paul is a false apostle as you might will go after the authors until all the books are gone (at least some of you). Lets take Luke at having a perfect understanding through the many witnesses in it and later became pals with Paul, what happened there, do you believe that Paul pulled the wool over Luke's eyes, or that somehow Paul forged Acts. Before I waste my time quoting 2Peter (since I need to discard that according to some Paul deniers) and Luke cannot be a first hand witness of Christ (and what that means to you) and what that means for the book of Acts.
Lay this out for us.
I'm surprised 1 Peter can still remain even though Jesus called Peter Satan.
yes, paul cpuld have influenced the writinha pf Luke, rememner luke consulted the 11 disciples and other people to write Luke, if if also very plausable he consulted paul. I mentionned it before nut maybe not to you that I do believe in paul's conversion because of the soecific words Christ used when he rebuked paul so I know that is true but I know also paul at one point changed and said things contrary to Jesus and even himself. If Paul said things contrary from Jesus it cannit be from GOD to put it simply.
yes so?
there are differences between Paul’s accounts of his Damascus road experience, and some details change depending on the audience. In Acts we have three versions: Acts 9:3–19, Acts 22:6–16, and Acts 26:12–18 (his defense before Agrippa).
In Acts 9, Luke narrates that the men with Paul heard the voice but saw no one. In Acts 22, Paul says the men saw the light but did not hear the voice of the one speaking to him. In Acts 26, before Agrippa, Paul adds new elements not mentioned before: that Jesus told him at that moment he was being sent to the Gentiles, and that he was given a direct mission to “turn them from darkness to light.” Earlier accounts suggest Paul was only told to go to Damascus, where he would be told what to do.
These differences raise questions about consistency. The core story of Paul encountering a light and a voice claiming to be Jesus—remains, but the details about what his companions saw or heard, and the timing of his commission, change. Whether these are intentional lies or simply retellings adjusted to the audience is debated, but the discrepancies make it difficult to treat all three accounts as the same event told truthfully in every detail. throughout Paul's epistles similat lack of consistency can be observed.
Share with us who you believe wrote Luke, Acts and Hebrews,
Heres some other NT espistles/or books that were disputed at one time or another
- Hebrews: Traditionally attributed to Paul, but its authorship is uncertain. Early church figures like Origen questioned its Pauline origin.
- James: Not written by a disciple of Jesus, according to some scholars, and it presents a view of salvation by works, which contrasts with Paul's doctrine of salvation by faith.
- 2 Peter: Likely written by a student of Peter, rather than Peter himself, and was disputed in early Christian circles.
- 2 John: Attributed to the unknown John the Elder, not the disciple John.
- 3 John: Also attributed to the unknown John the Elder, and its authorship is uncertain.
- Jude: Includes a quotation from the rejected Book of Enoch, which led to questions about its authenticity.
- Revelation: Its unusual style and imagery, and the belief that its author was John the Elder rather than the disciple John, led to disputes about its authenticity.
- Colossians: Disputed among scholars, with some questioning whether it was genuinely written by Paul.
- 2 Thessalonians: Sharp division exists among scholars regarding its authenticity as a letter from Paul.
- Ephesians: Considered pseudepigraphical by most critical scholars, meaning it was likely not written by Paul.
- 1 Timothy: Part of the Pastoral Epistles, which are generally considered not authentic by critical scholars.
- 2 Timothy: Similarly, this letter is considered pseudepigraphical by many scholars.
- Titus: Another of the Pastoral Epistles, also viewed as non-authentic by most critical scholars.
How many of these do you disregard?
I certainly don't need an exact date, how its laid out in Acts is good enough for me.
what Peter said what he said he was influenced by Satan at that Moment, Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Peter was obviously not satan, Jesus said clearly to peter ;
Jhn 21:15 When they had finished eating, Jesus asked Simon Peter, “Simon son of John, do you love Me more than these?” “Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus replied, “Feed My lambs.”
Jhn 21:16 Jesus asked a second time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” “Yes, Lord,” he answered, “You know I love You.” Jesus told him, “Shepherd My sheep.”
Jhn 21:17 Jesus asked a third time, “Simon son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was deeply hurt that Jesus had asked him a third time, “Do you love Me?” “Lord, You know all things,” he replied. “You know I love You.” Jesus said to him, “Feed My sheep.
do you believe Peter was Satan ?
Your writing style changes like a banned member Peppers would, who was also a Paul denier. His writing would go from readable to almost childlike and ridden with errors in it in an instant out of nowhere. You are reminding me of him right now.
Did you forget your own question?
You asked what family Paul came from.
I quote him on it.
I have posted all three of these account on this forum, theres not much to see there at all.
All the gospels have various added elements between them, why is that even problematic?
I was actually being sarcastic, given all the Paul nitpicking, I am amazed Peter is still standing with that one in his belt.
you are loooking of ways to discredit me I know this, then you can write, You see, LY does not believe in scripture but rejects it?
IF the spirit is with you it becomes easy to know. I
Looking at those books by whether their message stays consistent with what Jesus Himself taught, only a few of them match closely. James agrees with Jesus’ teaching that faith must be lived out through works, like when Jesus said, “You will know them by their fruits” (Matthew 7:16) and “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father” (Matthew 7:21). Jude warns against false teachers and urges believers to keep themselves in the love of God, which echoes Jesus’ own warnings about deceivers and the need to abide in Him. Revelation, despite its symbolic style, centers on the return of Christ, the call to endure faithfully, and final judgment according to works, all of which Jesus taught.
The other letters—Hebrews, 2 Peter, Colossians, 2 Thessalonians, Ephesians, 1 and 2 Timothy, and Titus—contain teachings or emphases that are less directly aligned with Jesus’ words, often focusing on doctrines or ideas Jesus never taught.
I reject all of paul's epistles, he cannot be trusted, said evil things of Christ that i will not repeat here demeaned the disciples as knowing nothing of Christ and boasted to be no lesses than the most eminent amongst the 12, wich is absurd, the 12 knew everyting about the lived with him for 3 years ans witnesset it all.
Here is the continuous explanation for your study:
In my profession, my oective was to go through a ton of writings and data, find what was true and reject the rest, after 30 years plus of this type pf analyses i can spot these differences and untruth quite easily but the point I want to make Here is that The Holy Spirit tells you all things and opens your mind to see truth from non truth, this is what I use. I can make mistakes sometimes but I am certain I do not need any of the wirds of Paul even if some of what he said is sometimes true, the main points of Paul's message is too far apart from Christ's. saved by faitth and grace alone vs. jesus sayinr repend and keep my commandments to enter into life.
I know paul said also to keep the last six commandments but in many verses, he speaks against the law and commandments.
He wrote that Christ “has abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances” (Ephesians 2:15), that believers are “delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by” (Romans 7:6), and that Christ “has redeemed us from the curse of the law” (Galatians 3:13). He argued that “by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Galatians 2:16) and that “if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law”(Galatians 5:18). He also wrote, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4), and that the law was “our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (Galatians 3:24–25). He even said that God had “wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us… having nailed it to the cross” (Colossians 2:14). No wonder everyone os comfused and we have so many demininations that contradict each other!
You must know this is confirmed because paul was arrested ;
Act 21:28 crying out, “Men of Israel, help us! This is the man who teaches everywhere against our people and against our law and against this place. Furthermore, he has brought Greeks into the temple and defiled this holy place.”Jesus never spoke against the commandments on the contrary he said they never will pass away
Jesus always upheld the law and commandments and taught His followers to keep them. He said, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:17‑19). He told the rich young ruler, “If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:17), and summed them up by saying the two greatest commandments are to love God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as yourself, adding, “On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets” (Matthew 22:37‑40). He also warned, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven” (Matthew 7:21). Jesus taught that His words will never pass away (Matthew 24:35) and that those who hear His sayings and do them are like a wise man who built his house on the rock (Matthew 7:24).
Do you see a bit more now why Paul cannot be trusted? he has devided the church just as predicted in prophecy;
The prophecy to comes from Genesis 49:27, where Jacob speaks about his son Benjamin:
“Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil.”
This prophecy has often been linked to Paul, who was from the tribe of Benjamin (Philippians 3:5). Before his conversion, Paul fiercely persecuted the early church, “breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord” (Acts 9:1). This matches the image of the “ravenous wolf… devouring the prey.” After his claimed conversion, Paul divided the spoil by bringing teachings that spoke against the law and commandments—saying they were abolished, nailed to the cross, and that believers were no longer under them (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 7:6, Galatians 3:13, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 5:18, Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:24‑25, Colossians 2:14). These teachings were contrary to Christ, who upheld the law and taught His followers to keep the commandments (Matthew 5:17‑19, Matthew 19:17, Matthew 22:37‑40, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 24:35, Matthew 7:24). In doing so, Paul divided the very spoils of the faith, setting aside what Christ had established and causing division within the body of believers.
The hired hand is not the shepherd, and the sheep are not his own. When he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf pounces on them and scatters the flock.
Jhn 10:12 In John 10:12 Jesus warned, “The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.” Paul can be seen in both of these images at different times in his life. Before his claimed conversion, as a descendant of Benjamin, he matched the prophecy, “Benjamin is a ravenous wolf; in the morning he shall devour the prey, and at night he shall divide the spoil”(Genesis 49:27). Paul hunted the early believers, “breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord” (Acts 9:1), scattering the flock by force. Later, after taking the name of an apostle, he resembled the hired hand because he did not keep the sheep safe by guarding them with the true words of the Shepherd. Instead, he taught that the law of God was abolished, nailed to the cross, and no longer binding (Ephesians 2:15, Romans 7:6, Galatians 3:13, Galatians 2:16, Galatians 5:18, Romans 10:4, Galatians 3:24‑25, Colossians 2:14), which opposed Christ, who upheld the law and commanded His followers to keep it (Matthew 5:17‑19, Matthew 19:17, Matthew 22:37‑40, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 24:35, Matthew 7:24). By leaving the foundation of Jesus’ teaching, he left the flock unguarded, and division entered among the believers. Thus Paul first acted as the wolf who devoured and scattered and later as the hired hand who failed to protect the sheep by standing firmly with the Shepherd’s commands.
People are so Blind or refuse to see.
I will answer no more, I an gone. I have done all I can here and I must spread the Message of Jesus My Lord and shepherd about repentance from sin, the coming Kingdom of Heaven keeping the commandments to enter into life , and all he said and done to whom will listen I urge you all to do the same, We do not have much time..
Peace be with you all.
A disciple of Jesus Christ The Beloved Son of God.
Lets start there and read the verse before it (and behind it) since the accusation also includes polluting the holy place (and this, after the seven days of purifying himself) which really pertains to Paul bringing in a Greeks
Acts 21:27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Whom they supposed Paul brought in
Acts 21:29 (For they had seen before with him in the city Trophimus an Ephesian, whom they supposed that Paul had brought into the temple.)
You cut out that last verse
So that when they finally get Paul before Felix and accuse Paul again saying
Acts 24:5 For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, and a mover of sedition among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes:
Bring up the Greek he supposedly brought in to profane it
Acts 24:6 Who also hath gone about to profane the temple: whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
But this happened
Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
Acts 24:8 Commanding his accusers to come unto thee: by examining of whom thyself mayest take knowledge of all these things, whereof we accuse him.
So the chief captain foiled their plans
Continues on the next post
Acts 24:10 Then Paul, after that the governor had beckoned unto him to speak, answered, Forasmuch as I know that thou hast been of many years a judge unto this nation, I do the more cheerfully answer for myself:
Acts 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
Acts 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Read it all the way through, shares more about this saying
Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
Acts 24:18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
Who arent even there as Paul points out
Acts 14:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
Keep reading, Paul ends up sharing his faith with Felix and his wife and had visits with him only in the hopes of Paul giving him money to loose him
Acts 24:26 He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.
Felix was willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.
Then follow through Acts 25 They were falsely accusing him
Just as they were Stephen, its their same play book
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
I have to make dinner, but before I did I wanted to at least tackle that one verse, but I see you said you arent going to answer again, thats fine.
Acts 24:11 Because that thou mayest understand, that there are yet but twelve days since I went up to Jerusalem for to worship.
Acts 24:12 And they neither found me in the temple disputing with any man, neither raising up the people, neither in the synagogues, nor in the city:
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Read it all the way through, shares more about this saying
Acts 24:17 Now after many years I came to bring alms to my nation, and offerings.
Acts 24:18 Whereupon certain Jews from Asia found me purified in the temple, neither with multitude, nor with tumult.
Who arent even there as Paul points out
Acts 14:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
Keep reading, Paul ends up sharing his faith with Felix and his wife and had visits with him only in the hopes of Paul giving him money to loose him
Acts 24:26 He hoped also that money should have been given him of Paul, that he might loose him: wherefore he sent for him the oftener, and communed with him.
Felix was willing to shew the Jews a pleasure, left Paul bound.
Then follow through Acts 25 They were falsely accusing him
Just as they were Stephen, its their same play book
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
I have to make dinner, but before I did I wanted to at least tackle that one verse, but I see you said you arent going to answer again, thats fine.
Also, the first part of the verse in Acts 21:28, reflects the same false witnesses/ false accusers
The false witnesses against Stephen in Chapter 6
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Same with Paul before Felix in Chapter 21
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Where Paul says,
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
The false witnesses against Stephen in Chapter 6
Acts 6:13 And set up false witnesses, which said, This man ceaseth not to speak blasphemous words against this holy place, and the law:
Same with Paul before Felix in Chapter 21
Acts 21:28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.
Where Paul says,
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Also LoveYeshua, you said,
"You must know this is confirmed because paul was arrested ;"
Simply because it says,
(Paul) whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
Who stood before Felix and said,
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
And neither did the Jews from Asia which accused Paul showed up
Acts 24:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
Acts 25:1 Now when Festus was come into the province in the stead of Felix
And after so long a time, the Jews from Jerusalem again began laying complaints on Paul they could not even prove here
Acts 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
Paul answers this way here
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
And Paul wrote the Corinths also telling them not to give offence
1 Cr 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Cr 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
But again, it says this about Festus
Acts 25:9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
What a trap that would be
Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Acts 25:12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.
He did nothing wrong being examined every which way, and after he gave his testimony to Agrippa it says
Acts 26:32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
So whats confirmed in any sort of arrest here?
"You must know this is confirmed because paul was arrested ;"
Simply because it says,
(Paul) whom we took, and would have judged according to our law.
Acts 24:7 But the chief captain Lysias came upon us, and with great violence took him away out of our hands,
Who stood before Felix and said,
Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
And neither did the Jews from Asia which accused Paul showed up
Acts 24:19 Who ought to have been here before thee, and object, if they had ought against me.
Acts 25:1 Now when Festus was come into the province in the stead of Felix
And after so long a time, the Jews from Jerusalem again began laying complaints on Paul they could not even prove here
Acts 25:7 And when he was come, the Jews which came down from Jerusalem stood round about, and laid many and grievous complaints against Paul, which they could not prove.
Paul answers this way here
Acts 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.
And Paul wrote the Corinths also telling them not to give offence
1 Cr 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
1 Cr 10:33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.
But again, it says this about Festus
Acts 25:9 But Festus, willing to do the Jews a pleasure, answered Paul, and said, Wilt thou go up to Jerusalem, and there be judged of these things before me?
What a trap that would be
Acts 25:10 Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest.
Acts 25:11 For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die: but if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them. I appeal unto Caesar.
Acts 25:12 Then Festus, when he had conferred with the council, answered, Hast thou appealed unto Caesar? unto Caesar shalt thou go.
He did nothing wrong being examined every which way, and after he gave his testimony to Agrippa it says
Acts 26:32 Then said Agrippa unto Festus, This man might have been set at liberty, if he had not appealed unto Caesar.
So whats confirmed in any sort of arrest here?
You do realize that if Paul were here he could say that very same thing to you.
Now this could be the true reason why this has been so incredible difficult for me.
I need more spirit
I am still grateful for this thread regardless because each time I get involved in a Paul is a false apostle thread I get a little something out of it and this did not disappoint.
The rest of these below (Minus the Acts 21:28 which I touched upon ) will take more time to go through and figure out how you are knitting these things together against Paul. So I will put it in a document and see what comes of it.
Regardless, I will still keep what you believe to be arguments and look them over from time to time and when I find something, and thought it through I will come back here and post it to this thread.
Its a good practice .
Yeshuas had mentioned in the above that, James agrees with Jesus’ teaching that faith must be lived out through works
Just adding what Paul wrote this
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Ephes 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
Paul says in 2 Cr 6:1 Not to receive the grace of God in vain
Here is what receiving it not in vain looks like,
1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Whereas James on the otherhand is speaking to the "O Vain man"
(or he that receiveth the grace of God in vain as Paul mentions it)
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And Paul is not an "O vain man, that has faith without works"
But to the contrary, Paul says, his grace which was bestowed upon me was not "in vain"; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Just adding them as I look at them as I said I would.
Just adding what Paul wrote this
2 Tim 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began
Titus 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
Ephes 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Romans 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace
Paul says in 2 Cr 6:1 Not to receive the grace of God in vain
Here is what receiving it not in vain looks like,
1 Cr 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Whereas James on the otherhand is speaking to the "O Vain man"
(or he that receiveth the grace of God in vain as Paul mentions it)
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
And Paul is not an "O vain man, that has faith without works"
But to the contrary, Paul says, his grace which was bestowed upon me was not "in vain"; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Just adding them as I look at them as I said I would.
LoveYeshua had posted on how Jude warns against false teachers
In the which context was implying Jude was "in the know" on Paul being a false teacher and is warning about him (with his, "the certain men that have crept in") in his espistle.
Heres the verse mentioning this
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Lets look at "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" part
Whereas Paul says,
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So Paul says lasciviousness is a work of the flesh and they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not seeing it there
Paul again on those who give themselves unto lasciviousness
Ephes 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephes 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephes 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Next verse
Ephes 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Paul continues
Ephes 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephes 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephes 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephes 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Jude again
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul again
2 Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings,
wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2 Cr 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Paul speaks to lasciviousness in all those places and I cannot see how he turning the grace of God into is.
LoveYeshua wrote (I'll quote the full sentence that I neglected to do because she mashes together 4 mentions into one line)
Jude warns against false teachers and urges believers to keep themselves in the love of God, which echoes Jesus’ own warnings about deceivers and the need to abide in Him.
Okay, so already touched on Judes false teacher thing comparing what Jude called a false teacher (that have crept in) and compared those with Paul's words which contradict that Jude was even talking about him.
I don't want to miss anything concerning the love of God between Jude and Paul, I'll just post these for brevity
Jude wrote
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And Paul also wrote,
2 Thes 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Paul also warns of deceivers
2 Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
And as Jesus said to abide in Him
Paul wrote
2 Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
Just posting these for now, I'll be back Lord willing
In the which context was implying Jude was "in the know" on Paul being a false teacher and is warning about him (with his, "the certain men that have crept in") in his espistle.
Heres the verse mentioning this
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Lets look at "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness" part
Whereas Paul says,
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
So Paul says lasciviousness is a work of the flesh and they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Not seeing it there
Paul again on those who give themselves unto lasciviousness
Ephes 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
Ephes 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
Ephes 4:19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
Next verse
Ephes 4:20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
Paul continues
Ephes 4:21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
Ephes 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Ephes 4:23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
Ephes 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Jude again
Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul again
2 Cr 12:20 For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings,
wraths, strifes, backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults:
2 Cr 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.
Paul speaks to lasciviousness in all those places and I cannot see how he turning the grace of God into is.
LoveYeshua wrote (I'll quote the full sentence that I neglected to do because she mashes together 4 mentions into one line)
Jude warns against false teachers and urges believers to keep themselves in the love of God, which echoes Jesus’ own warnings about deceivers and the need to abide in Him.
Okay, so already touched on Judes false teacher thing comparing what Jude called a false teacher (that have crept in) and compared those with Paul's words which contradict that Jude was even talking about him.
I don't want to miss anything concerning the love of God between Jude and Paul, I'll just post these for brevity
Jude wrote
Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
And Paul also wrote,
2 Thes 3:5 And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.
Paul also warns of deceivers
2 Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
And as Jesus said to abide in Him
Paul wrote
2 Cr 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
Just posting these for now, I'll be back Lord willing
In the book of Revelation, Jesus rebukes the church in Pergamos because they were tolerating people who followed the teaching of Balaam. He said, “But I have a few things against you, because you have there those who hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balak to put a stumbling block before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols, and to commit sexual immorality” (Revelation 2:14). Balaam, in the Old Testament, enticed Israel to sin by leading them into idolatry, causing them to eat food sacrificed to idols and to break God’s covenant. This was not just about the food itself but about fellowship with idols, which God calls spiritual adultery.
From the beginning, God made it clear that idolatry is an abomination. In Exodus 34:14–15 He commanded, “For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice.” Eating food sacrificed to idols was forbidden because it meant sharing in the worship of false gods, breaking the first and second commandments: “You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image… you shall not bow down to them nor serve them” (Exodus 20:3–5). It was also a violation of God’s call to holiness, for He said, “You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy” (Leviticus 19:2).
When the early church faced the question of Gentile believers, the apostles met in Jerusalem to decide what God required of them. Led by the Holy Spirit, they sent a letter to all the churches saying, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well” (Acts 15:28–29). This command was not a temporary cultural rule; it was called a necessary thing by the Holy Spirit and was written to Gentile believers in every place.
Yet Paul, in his letters, permits believers to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as it does not trouble their own conscience or cause others to stumble. He writes, “Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake; for ‘the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.’ … If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake” (1 Corinthians 10:25–27). In the same letter he also says, “An idol is nothing in the world” (1 Corinthians 8:4) and concludes that the act of eating food sacrificed to idols, by itself, does not defile the believer. This stands in open contradiction to Jesus’ rebuke in Revelation, the decree of the Jerusalem council, and the Old Testament law.
By allowing what God calls abomination, Paul speaks against the commandment of the Lord. The issue is not the meat itself but obedience to God’s word. Eating what has been offered to idols dishonors God and associates the believer with idol worship, breaking the first commandment that commands loyalty to the one true God alone. Jesus Himself said you cannot “drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons” (1 Corinthians 10:21)—yet Paul still tells his followers they can eat idol food if they do not ask questions, so long as they think it harmless.
The seriousness of this sin cannot be minimized. Jesus linked the teaching of Balaam with leading believers into sin, and God called it an abomination from the days of Moses. The command of the Holy Spirit through the apostles still stands: believers must abstain from food sacrificed to idols. Any teaching that permits what God has forbidden places itself against God. Jesus warned that breaking even the least of God’s commandments and teaching others to do so makes one least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19). This is absolute proof that Paul was speaking against God and His laws, and it was a legitimate reason for the Jews to arrest him in Acts, for by teaching people to transgress God’s commandments he placed himself in opposition to the Lord.
Continue to make excuses for Paul like everyone else and reject the truth God and Jesus explained clearly and see where it leads you.
From the beginning, God made it clear that idolatry is an abomination. In Exodus 34:14–15 He commanded, “For you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God, lest you make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot with their gods and make sacrifice to their gods, and one of them invites you and you eat of his sacrifice.” Eating food sacrificed to idols was forbidden because it meant sharing in the worship of false gods, breaking the first and second commandments: “You shall have no other gods before Me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image… you shall not bow down to them nor serve them” (Exodus 20:3–5). It was also a violation of God’s call to holiness, for He said, “You shall be holy, for I the Lord your God am holy” (Leviticus 19:2).
When the early church faced the question of Gentile believers, the apostles met in Jerusalem to decide what God required of them. Led by the Holy Spirit, they sent a letter to all the churches saying, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well” (Acts 15:28–29). This command was not a temporary cultural rule; it was called a necessary thing by the Holy Spirit and was written to Gentile believers in every place.
Yet Paul, in his letters, permits believers to eat meat sacrificed to idols as long as it does not trouble their own conscience or cause others to stumble. He writes, “Eat whatever is sold in the meat market, asking no questions for conscience' sake; for ‘the earth is the Lord’s, and all its fullness.’ … If any of those who do not believe invites you to dinner, and you desire to go, eat whatever is set before you, asking no question for conscience' sake” (1 Corinthians 10:25–27). In the same letter he also says, “An idol is nothing in the world” (1 Corinthians 8:4) and concludes that the act of eating food sacrificed to idols, by itself, does not defile the believer. This stands in open contradiction to Jesus’ rebuke in Revelation, the decree of the Jerusalem council, and the Old Testament law.
By allowing what God calls abomination, Paul speaks against the commandment of the Lord. The issue is not the meat itself but obedience to God’s word. Eating what has been offered to idols dishonors God and associates the believer with idol worship, breaking the first commandment that commands loyalty to the one true God alone. Jesus Himself said you cannot “drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons” (1 Corinthians 10:21)—yet Paul still tells his followers they can eat idol food if they do not ask questions, so long as they think it harmless.
The seriousness of this sin cannot be minimized. Jesus linked the teaching of Balaam with leading believers into sin, and God called it an abomination from the days of Moses. The command of the Holy Spirit through the apostles still stands: believers must abstain from food sacrificed to idols. Any teaching that permits what God has forbidden places itself against God. Jesus warned that breaking even the least of God’s commandments and teaching others to do so makes one least in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19). This is absolute proof that Paul was speaking against God and His laws, and it was a legitimate reason for the Jews to arrest him in Acts, for by teaching people to transgress God’s commandments he placed himself in opposition to the Lord.
Continue to make excuses for Paul like everyone else and reject the truth God and Jesus explained clearly and see where it leads you.
You said,
I will answer no more, I an gone. I have done all I can here and I must spread the Message of Jesus My Lord and shepherd about repentance from sin, the coming Kingdom of Heaven keeping the commandments to enter into life , and all he said and done to whom will listen I urge you all to do the same, We do not have much time..
And I had responded saying,
Regardless, I will still keep what you believe to be arguments and look them over from time to time and when I find something, and thought it through I will come back here and post it to this thread.
Its a good practice .
I have only gone through a fews of your complaints against Paul and I am glad you posted some more. I just added them to your Paul is a false apostle file to look over and address as the time allows.
You should be thrilled I am cross examining your claims. I mean you wouldn't want me to take your word for it would you? Afterall even you agree Jesus had spoken of false prophets, and deceivers and so you should be in agreement that this is a good thing, no?
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