The myth of grace-only & easy-believism shattered forever

[BreadOfLife]

That is the craziest version I ever saw.
Wow, get it right...

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

It just says the man, Jesus, was not made an angel but made by God of the seed of Abraham.
It does NOT say God took on the seed of Abraham.
You think God took on the seed of Abraham?

This is a glaring example why the ignorant and unstable should steer CLEAR away from the KJV.

Not because it’s a “bad” version – but because the Old English is FAR too difficult for somebody of your limited abilities to comprehend.
The Greek word πασ that is used here for "every respect" and "every way" and "all things" means:
1) all, the whole, all things, everything

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

NKJV
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, IN ALL THINGS He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NIV
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

ESV
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NASB
For assuredly He does not [a]give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He [c]had to be made LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

ASV
16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore it behooved him IN ALL THINGS to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NAB
Surely he did not help angels but rather the descendants of Abraham;
therefore, he had to become like his brothers IN EVERY WAY, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No, per the 95 theses nailed to the church door.
Pope officially deleted.

Really??
Show me where Luther's 95 Theses makes the claim that he deleted the "Pope's writings" from the Bible.

By the way - if Luther didn't delete the 7 Books from the OT - then WHO did??

 

[BreadOfLife]

Sooooo, you finally admit your flawed baptism is in error.

Now was that so hard to do :)

Not at ALL.
I simply used YOUR argument against YOU.

I fully understand that "in the name of" simply means "by the AUTHORITY of" - as do the bulk of linguistic scholars.
Do you need for me to explain it to you again?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Son of man?
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Mary's son..

WRONG.
He became the Son of Man when he was incarnated.

Try again . . .

 

[Doug]

Initially, through His grace, God gives to new believers:
Jesus’ righteousness, redemption, reconciliation, etc. and salvation.
However, this grace/salvation is NOT guaranteed to last forever!
Because ONLY their old-past-former sins have been forgiven (2 Peter 1:9).
And because NT verses warn about the possibility of losing salvation.

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Being justified is now, at this time, not future after you have completed your salvation as you say.
It is freely given by grace.
It is a sufficient salvation by the redemption of Christ.

3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus shed his blood for the new testament for Israel, to redeem their transgressions committed under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). 2 Peter 1:9 says it is the old sins because Peter is addressing Israel and speaking of the redemption under the first testament. That is one of the problems of not rightly dividing and thinking Peter spoke that to the church today.

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This verse is saying that through the redemption in Christ, God can declare his righteousness for the remission of sins "at this time" ,and be just, because Christ has paid for all sins.

Through faith in Jesus alone, the church in this dispensation of grace, "at this time", has the blood applied for forgiveness and justification.

 

[user]

Not at ALL.
I simply used YOUR argument against YOU.

I fully understand that "in the name of" simply means "by the AUTHORITY of" - as do the bulk of linguistic scholars.
Do you need for me to explain it to you again?

Are you even able to keep up?

Please allow me to refresh your memory...


Post #2236 I said: Jesus is the only saving name and the name in which sins are forgiven and remitted. To baptize in Jesus’ name is to baptize with His power and authority, the Apostles baptized in Jesus name, NOT "Father, Son, Holy Ghost." You do NOT have one scripture of anyone being baptized with the formula of "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" ... If you think you do, then please, by all means, horse-whip this forum and provide it now.

You failed to provide the scripture we were all waiting on.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Are you even able to keep up?
Please allow me to refresh your memory...

Post #2236 I said: Jesus is the only saving name and the name in which sins are forgiven and remitted. To baptize in Jesus’ name is to baptize with His power and authority, the Apostles baptized in Jesus name, NOT "Father, Son, Holy Ghost." You do NOT have one scripture of anyone being baptized with the formula of "Father, Son, Holy Ghost" ... If you think you do, then please, by all means, horse-whip this forum and provide it now.

You failed to provide the scripture we were all waiting on.

I already responded to this by showing that YOU have failed to show me ONE single verse to support your position.
show me ONE example of somebody in Scripture being Baptized in the name of Jesus "alone".

Your failure is only magnified by your desperate rejection of the scholarly evidence I presented showing that "in the name of" (Acts 2:38) simply means "by the AUTHORITY of".
Here it is again, since you seem to have forgotten . . .

From Macmillan Dictionary:

1. REPRESENTING someone or something
Ex. - They said they came “in the name of peace.”

From Cambridge Dictionary:
1. REPRESENTING someone or something
Ex. - "Open up in the name of the law" before they broke the door down.

From Thesaurus.com:
“In the name of” synonyms
1. THROUGH
2. THROUGH the agency of
3. Under the AUTHORITY of

From english.stackesxhange.com:
What does “in the name of…” actually mean?
Putting all religious contentions aside for the sake of our language, the etymology of name offers a good place to start understanding:

Old English nama, noma "name, reputation,"
from Proto-Germanic *namon

(cognates: Old Saxon namo, Old Frisian nama, Old High German namo, German Name, Middle Dutch name, Dutch naam, Old Norse nafn, Gothic namo "name"),

from PIE *nomn- (cognates: Sanskrit nama; Avestan nama; Greek onoma, onyma; Latin nomen; Old Church Slavonic ime, genitive imene; Russian imya; Old Irish ainm; Old Welsh anu "name").
IN ALL CULTURES, people of authority have always lent their reputation and their authority to their delegates. The founders and leaders of religious movements use the same delegation strategies as the founders and leaders of nations.
The English phrase in the name of simply asserts the reputation and authority of another person.

Here us an example from classic literature:
Victor Hugo's “Dramas” 1519, page 364:
“Richard Varney, in the name of God and Saint George we dub thee knight!”


Hopefully, it sinks in this time . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Romans
3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Being justified is now, at this time, not future after you have completed your salvation as you say.
It is freely given by grace.
It is a sufficient salvation by the redemption of Christ.

3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Jesus shed his blood for the new testament for Israel, to redeem their transgressions committed under the first testament (Hebrews 9:15). 2 Peter 1:9 says it is the old sins because Peter is addressing Israel and speaking of the redemption under the first testament. That is one of the problems of not rightly dividing and thinking Peter spoke that to the church today.

3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

This verse is saying that through the redemption in Christ, God can declare his righteousness for the remission of sins "at this time" ,and be just, because Christ has paid for all sins.

Through faith in Jesus alone, the church in this dispensation of grace, "at this time", has the blood applied for forgiveness and justification.

NOWHERE does Scripture state that a born again believer's FUTURE sins are forgiven without having repented of them.

As @Zachary correctly stated - the Bible is filled with examples of DIRE WARNINGS for born again believers - NOT to fall back into a life of willful sin or they will LOSE their security . . .

Romans 11:22
“See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell, but God's kindness to you, provided you REMAIN in his kindness; otherwise you to will be cut off.”
Paul is warning the faithful to REMAIN in God’s favor or they will lose their salvation. How can they lose what they never had?

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”
This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the loss of our salvation. The Greek ford for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if they, having escaped the defilements of the world through the KNOWLEDGE of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ, again become entangled and overcome by them, their last condition is worse than their first.
For it would have been better for them not to have KNOWN the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment handed down to them.
Here, Peter illustrates that those who had a full, experiential knowledge (epignosei) of Christ – CHRISTIANS – who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

Matt. 5:13
You are the salt of the earth. But if salt loses its taste, with what can it be seasoned? It is no longer good for anything but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.
This one is self-explanatory . . .

1 Cor. 9:27
"I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."
Paul is saying that he wrestles with his own fleshly desires so that he might not fall back into sin.

2 Peter 3:17
Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.
Peter is warning the faithful not to fall back into sin and lawlessness.

1 John 2:24
See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. IF it does, you also will REMAIN in the Son and in the Father.
This is an admonition to try to remain faithful.

Rev. 3:5
He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.
God cannot blot out a name that was never there in the first place. He is talking about CHRISTIANS who are already saved and how they can LOSE their salvation.

Rev. 22:19
And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
How can God “take away” somebody’s “share” of heaven if they never had it to begin with? This is about CHRISTIANS who may or may NOT make it into Heaven.

 

[Truther]

WRONG.
He became the Son of Man when he was incarnated.

Try again . . .

The son of man was in heaven while on earth?

The son of man was spotted in the O.T.

He was always known to God as his only begotten son...

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.


....Around 1000 years before his birth.

 

[Truther]

Really??
Show me where Luther's 95 Theses makes the claim that he deleted the "Pope's writings" from the Bible.

By the way - if Luther didn't delete the 7 Books from the OT - then WHO did??

The baloney of the Pope was nailed to the church door.

Luther debunked the Pope.

Luther started the reformation.

You and your Pope have been debunked centuries ago, and today.

 

[Truther]

This is a glaring example why the ignorant and unstable should steer CLEAR away from the KJV.

Not because it’s a “bad” version – but because the Old English is FAR too difficult for somebody of your limited abilities to comprehend.
The Greek word πασ that is used here for "every respect" and "every way" and "all things" means:
1) all, the whole, all things, everything

Do your HOMEWORK . . .

NKJV
For indeed He does not give aid to angels, but He does give aid to the seed of Abraham. 17 Therefore, IN ALL THINGS He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NIV
16 For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. 17 For this reason he had to be made like them, FULLY HUMAN IN EVERY WAY, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people.

ESV
For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. 17 Therefore he had to be made LIKE HIS BROTHERS IN EVERY RESPECT, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NASB
For assuredly He does not [a]give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He [c]had to be made LIKE HIS BRETHREN IN ALL THINGS, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
ASV
16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore it behooved him IN ALL THINGS to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

NAB
Surely he did not help angels but rather the descendants of Abraham;
therefore, he had to become like his brothers IN EVERY WAY, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest before God to expiate the sins of the people.

Egad!

More phony versions per the Catholic.

What will they think of next?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The son of man was in heaven while on earth?

The son of man was spotted in the O.T.

He was always known to God as his only begotten son...

Psalm 2
7 I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

....Around 1000 years before his birth.

The Son was "spotted" in the OT??
The ENTIRE OT revolves around the Son, Einstein.

Sooooo, what was His name in the OT - before He was incarnated as man in the NT?

 

[BreadOfLife]

Egad!
More phony versions per the Catholic.
What will they think of next?

Like I said - this is precisely why the ignorant and unstable should steer CLEAR away from the KJV.
he Old English is FAR too difficult for somebody of your limited abilities to comprehend.

Besides - I gave you the GREEK translation of the phrase, showing that He was human, Einstein.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Another LIE - what a surprise . . .

The Church has never taught that we "earn" our salvation.
Probably a good idea to do your homework before responding . . .

Your deceived if you think your church does not teach works.

If you can not see your church teaches works. You are deceived. Plain and simple

if you did not teach works. You would not teach sacraments as essential for salvation

You would not teach salvation is losable

You would teach salvation is by grace through faith, and those truly saved WILL WORK.

You would not teach (if your of this denomination of catholics) that purgatory is there just in case.

Your teaches teaches non of the above

If you desire to keep following them. Thats on you

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your deceived if you think your church does not teach works.
If you can not see your church teaches works. You are deceived. Plain and simple
if you did not teach works. You would not teach sacraments as essential for salvation
You would not teach salvation is losable
You would teach salvation is by grace through faith, and those truly saved WILL WORK.
You would not teach (if your of this denomination of catholics) that purgatory is there just in case.
Your teaches teaches non of the above
If you desire to keep following them. Thats on you

Let's start with your first blunder in RED - then we'll go down the list . . .

The Catholic Church does not teach that we "earn" our way into Heaven by our wroks.
The Church teaches - as the BIBLE does - that works are an essential element of faith (James 2:14-26) - and NOT simply an "after-effect" of coming to belief in Christ. TRUE Faith = Belief + works (obedience).

1 Cor. 13:1-3 says that you can’t even have true faith without love – that faith is worthless without love (agape). Agape is what makes us want to serve and God and each other. Galatians 5:6 reminds us that works don’t mean a thing without love. ALL that matters is faith – “working through love.”
Remember that 1 Cor. 13:13 tells us that faith is NOT the greatest virtue – but LOVE is.
Any attempt to separate love and faith is a perversion of the Gospel.

As for the ability to LOSE Salvation - again, the church teaches this because the BIBLE teaches it so plainly. There are MANY warnings in Scripture for born again believers NOT to fall back into a life of willful sin or they will LOSE their security (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Tim. 4:1, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

As for Grace through faith - I couldn't agree with you more - as long as you understand what the BIBLE says that TRUE faith is not simply "believing" as most Protestants think. the BIBLE says that TRUE faith involves:
- Being Baptized (Matt. 28:19-20, John 3:5, Rom. 2:29, Rom. 6:1-11, Col. 2:12-17, 1 Peter 3:21)
- Picking up our cross daily to follow him (Matt. 16:24, Luke 9:23)
- Works of mercy and charity (Matt. 19:21, 25:31–46, Luke 18:22)
- Obeying his commandments (John 14:15, 15:10)
- Doing the will of the Father (Matt. 7:21, James 1:22)
- Suffering with Christ (Matt. 10:38, 16:24, Mark 8:34, John 12:24, Rom. 8:17, 2 Cor. 1:5-7, Eph. 3:13, Phil. 1:29, 2 Tim. 1:8, 1 Peter 2:19-21, 4:1-2).

Finally - as to Purgatory - this is a subject that has had many threads on its own and is a very large subject.
Suffice it to say - it IS a BIBLICAL principle.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, it’s a “final purification of the elect” (1030-1032).

We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.

1 Cor. 3:10-15 uses the SAME imagery when talking about Judgement - and how some with "suffer loss" but will eventually be "saved".
- This CAN'T be Heaven because there is "suffering".
- This CAN'T be Hell because the person is eventually "saved".
- This is talking about a THIRD state - the state of final purification.

Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or "purgation" is necessary for some before entering Heaven.

2 Macc. 12:42-46 describes prayers for the dead and how this is a "noble" thing to do.

We see in Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10, where God is the Refiner who burns away the impurities to get to the precious metal – the gold and silver.
Matt. 18:32-35 and Luke 12:58-59 are additional verses that support this doctrine.

 

[Truther]

Like I said - this is precisely why the ignorant and unstable should steer CLEAR away from the KJV.
he Old English is FAR too difficult for somebody of your limited abilities to comprehend.

Besides - I gave you the GREEK translation of the phrase, showing that He was human, Einstein.

The newer the Greek redefinition, the funner?

 

[user]

I already responded to this by showing that YOU have failed to show me ONE single verse to support your position.
show me ONE example of somebody in Scripture being Baptized in the name of Jesus "alone".

You are the one which baptizes in the formula of Father, Son, Holy Ghost. You were asked multiple times to provide the scripture with anyone actually being baptized with that formula .... You failed to provide.

Soooo, let's take a look at how they baptized to fulfill Matthew 28:19...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")


Now let's take a look at what NAME the Apostles did baptized with ... "Jesus Christ" and "Lord Jesus"

By-the-way...
Is the name of your father - Father?
Is the name of your mother - Mother?
Is the name of your wife - Wife?
Do you know the difference?

 

[BreadOfLife]

The newer the Greek redefinition, the funner?

When in doubt - ALWAYS go to the original languages in Scripture.

Again - you LOSE because you don't do your homework . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

You are the one which baptizes in the formula of Father, Son, Holy Ghost. You were asked multiple times to provide the scripture with anyone actually being baptized with that formula .... You failed to provide.
Soooo, let's take a look at how they baptized to fulfill Matthew 28:19...

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")

Acts 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. (No mention of any "Father, Son, Holy Ghost formula")

Now let's take a look at what NAME the Apostles did baptized with ... "Jesus Christ" and "Lord Jesus"

By-the-way...
Is the name of your father - Father?
Is the name of your mother - Mother?
Is the name of your wife - Wife?
Do you know the difference?

Once again - not ONE of these verses details HOW these people were Baptized.

HOWEVER, Biblical scholars, as I have repeatedly proven - explain that Peter's statement in Acts 2:38 about Baptizing "in the name of" Jesus Christ simply meant to Baptize "by the AUTHORITY of" Jesus Christ. In case you missed it again - I posted it for about the FIFTH time in post #2367.

Look - I fully understand how painful and frustrating it is for you to lose a debate.
That's why I do my homework . . .

 

[Truther]

When in doubt - ALWAYS go to the original languages in Scripture.

Again - you LOSE because you don't do your homework . . .

I there an original manuscript, or are they all copies and copies of copies?

Is there anyone on earth today that knows ancient Greek perfectly?