The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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Kermos

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* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

This is more about the recorded Word of God in John 15:16 and John 15:19 as mentioned in post #2283 which shows that you try to limit the audience to exclusively the apostles for the supper covered in John chapters 14 to 17.

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

The Audience Identified For Lord Jesus Christ's Words About Choosing

Lord Jesus says to Peter, James, John, and Andrew "What I say to you I say to all" (Mark 13:37).

Lord Jesus says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) to all His own disciples (John 10:27-29) in all time.

Related post 1: more disciples present at supper

Related post 2: Free-willian's Claim To Superiority Over The Apostles

Related post 3: The Friend Of Jesus (John 15:15) Is Exclusively Chosen By Jesus (John 15:16)
 

Tong2020

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'Now we have received,
.. not the spirit of the world,
.... but the spirit which is of God;
...... that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak,
.. not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth,
.... but which the Holy Ghost teacheth;
...... comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
.. for they are foolishness unto him:
.... neither can he know them,
...... because they are spiritually discerned.'

(1 Cor. 2:12-14)

Hello @Tong2020,

You ask for my 'take' on 1 Corinthians 2:14: presumably you ask with the subject heading of this thread in mind, yes? :) With the question, 'Did Christ die for all men without exception?'

The spirit which is of God is something that the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ receives. It is not something that he is born with naturally. Also the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. This requires enlightenment, which the believer on the Lord Jesus Christ receives, the spirit which is of God in Christ Jesus.

What are the things of the Spirit of God which are being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14? They are, 'the things that are freely given to us of God,' in Christ Jesus: they are things which accompany salvation. This is not the gospel message. The testimony of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ is plainly spoken in Scripture and is within the ability of all who hear it to either receive or reject.

'The entrance of Thy words giveth light;
it giveth understanding unto the simple.'

(Psa 119:130)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The natural man is the unregenerate, one as dead, as pertains to the things of the Spirit of God. As such, he is not able to know them. He cannot know them.

<<<What are the things of the Spirit of God which are being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14? They are the things that are freely given to us by God , in Christ Jesus. This is not the gospel message. >>>

Don’t you think the gospel message is not about the things of the Spirit of God? Is the gospel message not discerned spiritually?

<<<The testimony of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ is plainly spoken in Scripture and is within the ability of all who hear it to either receive or reject.>>>

Do you think the natural man is able to discern the gospel or they find it to be foolishness, such as what Paul calls the message of the cross in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians?

Tong
R4733
 

brightfame52

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The all for whom Christ was given to be a ransom for !2

Redemption is the result of the Ransom, for the ransom payment is so that Redemption may be set in motion; make active , for they must go hand in hand, like we here Ps 49:7

7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him: The Lone exception is Jesus Christ, who redeemed His Brethren !

Jer 31:11

11 For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and ransomed him from the hand of him that was stronger than he. This Pictures how the Elect of Christ are ransomed and redeemed out of the power of the devil, the strong man ! See Luke 11:21-23

Hos 11:14

14 I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

And next, even though the words aren't together in the same verse, they are in the same immediate context here Isa 35:9-10

9 No lion shall be there, nor any ravenous beast shall go up thereon, it shall not be found there; but the redeemed shall walk there:

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

And notice Vs 8 of the same context Isa 35:8

And an highway shall be there, and a way, and it shall be called The way of holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it; but it shall be for those: the wayfaring men, though fools, shall not err therein.

It is the way that the ransomed and redeemed shall walk therein ! This does not speak of any possibilities or contingency, that it may or may not occur, but its one of the sure shalls of God !

And the way spoken of is none other that Jesus Christ, their Redeemer, He is the Way to God Jn 14:6

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

And He is that Narrow and Unpopular way Matt 7:14

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

He's that narrow way that Leadeth to Life, Jn 14:6 and its this way all the ransomed shall go 1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Thats the same ransomed of Isa 35:8-10 !

Now if it is never the case for one, then they simply were not part of the All of 1 Tim 2:6 !
 

brightfame52

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Again, you are confusing "meaning" with "significance."

Suppose a teacher reminds her students that the term paper is due on Friday. This general statement applies to the entire class without exception. She means to say that everyone must have turned in a term paper by Friday. Then suppose some of the students have already turned in a term paper. The significance of her statement, then, depends on the student. If the student has already turned in a term paper, the reminder is of little importance. But if the student has not turned in a paper, the reminder is meaningful and important.

1 Timothy 2:5-6
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.


Paul tells Timothy that Jesus gave himself as a ransom for all. He means this as a general statement concerning the large, overarching truth that no one is excluded from the ransom payment. No category of human being will be excluded or denied. As John puts it in Revelation 7 "Look! a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes . . ." Revelation 7:9 What Paul means to say is that Jesus Christ gave himself as a ransom for all: individuals from every nation, tribe, peoples, and tongues.

What is the significance of Paul's statement then? In the larger context, Paul is asking Timothy and his flock "that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity." Here, once again, Paul means to be inclusive. No category of human being should be left off of the list of those for whom you pray. This includes "kings and all who are in authority". We should pray for these men also. Why? Because Christ gave himself as a ransom for them also.

Your exclusionary interpretation undercuts Paul's point. If we were to take your view to its logical conclusion, Timothy and his flock might be right to say, "Paul didn't intend for us to pray for Nero. Christ didn't die for him did he?
I believe you are confused friend, and Im giving you the truth.
 

brightfame52

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Q) Did Christ die for all men without exception?

'I am come a light into the world,
that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.
And if any man hear My words, and believe not, I judge Him not:
for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
He that rejecteth Me, and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him:
the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge Him in the last day.'

(Joh 12:46)

'And it shall come to pass,
that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord
shall be saved.'

(Act 2:21)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
The whosoever believing describes His Chosen Sheep. Its them He exclusively died for Jn 10
 

charity

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The natural man is the unregenerate, one as dead, as pertains to the things of the Spirit of God. As such, he is not able to know them. He cannot know them.

<<<What are the things of the Spirit of God which are being spoken of in 1 Corinthians 2:12-14? They are the things that are freely given to us by God , in Christ Jesus. This is not the gospel message. >>>

Don’t you think the gospel message is not about the things of the Spirit of God? Is the gospel message not discerned spiritually?

<<<The testimony of God concerning the Lord Jesus Christ is plainly spoken in Scripture and is within the ability of all who hear it to either receive or reject.>>>

Do you think the natural man is able to discern the gospel or they find it to be foolishness, such as what Paul calls the message of the cross in the first chapter of 1 Corinthians?

Tong
R4733
Hello @Tong2020,

As a young person I heard the gospel of the grace of God spoken, and I believed what I heard. God brought me under conviction of sin and drew me to Himself to seek forgiveness and salvation through faith in His Beloved Son. Until I heard I had no knowledge of sin. Faith came by hearing and hearing by the word of God. The entrance of His word brings the light of the knowledge of God in Christ Jesus.

God's light is shining forth with the gospel message, and His truth is available to all. Yet not all will believe or receive it.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 

charity

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The whosoever believing describes His Chosen Sheep. Its them He exclusively died for Jn 10
'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have eternal life.'

(Joh 3:14-15)

Hello @brightfame52,

The Bible does not make that distinction.

God in His foreknowledge knows beforehand who will believe and who will not: not because He has foreordained it that way; but because He knows the hearts of man and knows whether they will believe or not; but the word is sounded forth that all may have the opportunity to hear and believe on His Name. All without distinction. For God is no respecter of persons (Matthew 5:45).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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charity

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'For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,
that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world;
but that the world through Him might be saved.

He that believeth on Him is not condemned:
but He that believeth not is condemned already,
because He hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.'

(Joh 3:16-18)
 
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charity

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'And you hath He quickened,
who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Wherein in time past ye walked
according to the course of this world,
according to the prince of the power of the air,
the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: ... '

'Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past
in the lusts of our flesh,
fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind;
and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
But God, Who is rich in mercy,
for His great love wherewith He loved us,
Even when we were dead in sins,
hath quickened us together with Christ,
( by grace ye are saved )'

(Eph 2:1-5)

Praise God!
 
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CadyandZoe

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I believe you are confused friend, and Im giving you the truth.
I didn't say you were confused. Perhaps you didn't know that "confuse" has more than one meaning.

For instance, If I say, "a lot of people confuse a stroke with a heart attack", I'm saying that people mistakenly get the two mixed up. They identify the symptoms incorrectly.

As a brother in Christ, I am trying to help you with your exegetical skills, pointing out that understanding the meaning of a passage is different than understanding the significance of a passage.

Your arguments in this thread superimpose the significance of the cross over the top of various passages that speak about the inclusiveness of the cross, inadvertently obscuring what the passages are actually trying to say. This forces you to redefine words like "all" and "whosoever", which is a clear indication that you have work to do with regard to your understanding of these passages.
 

Kermos

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Hello Kermos,

No, Christ Jesus our living Lord is the only way to the Father, both spiritually and physically (ie., for reconciliation, and for resurrection). He is the true and living way to the Father.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

You replied to me, and you focused in on John 14:6. Why?
 

Kermos

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"He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. But as many as received Him, to them He gave the power to become children of God, to those who believe in His name, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:11-13)

'He came unto His own,
and His own received Him not.
But as many as received Him,
to them gave He power to become the sons of God,
even to them that believe on His name: ... '
(John 1:11-12)

Hello @Kermos,

Yes those are my own words: but I did not give any indication that they were anything other than my own words, so I do not see why you are drawing attention to them. For the Lord came to His own, (the lost sheep of the house of Israel), to confirm the promises made to them by The Father, and to destroy the works of the Devil. This He did. Israel did have the gospel of the Kingdom preached to them, so they did have opportunity to believe, not only during the ministry of Christ Himself, but also during the forty years of the Acts period, when the twelve continued His ministry, in His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Nonetheless, "to them He gave the power to become children of God" (John 1:12), so they could not believe without God imparting power in them (John 6:29).

Furthermore, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13), so they could not believe without God imparting power in them (John 6:29).

You are the person who singled out where God had me write:
You wrote "if he tasted death for all", but Christ did not taste death for all because that results in Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You wrote "he is not willing any should perish", so in your heart's thoughts you have Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).​

The bottom line is that no one, @charity, absolutely no one can snatch Christ's chosen person whom Christ died for out of Christ's hand; therefore, Lord Jesus Christ did not die for everyone everywhere in all time.
 

Kermos

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Hello Kermos,

In the margin of my Bible in relation to those words in John 1:13, 'Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God,' I am told that the word, 'which' is 'who', referring to those who believe on His Name. However it also says that antecedent to any manuscripts eg., of Irenaeus (AD178), Tertullian (AD208), Augustine (AD395) and the other 'Fathers', the words were, 'Who was begotten'.(singular not plural). The 'hos' (= 'Who') agreeing with 'autou' (His name. Gr. 'onoma autou', 'name of Him'). Verse 14 goes on to speak of the incarnation of Him Who was not begotten by human generation. Tertullian says that 'believers' could not be intended in this verse, 'since all who believe are born of blood'. So the words, 'Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God', refers to Christ Himself and not those who would believe on His Name.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

The first word of John 1:13, the Greek word "οἳ" is plural, and "οἳ" is the word "which" (KJV) / "who" (NASB); therefore, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13) refers to believers in Christ.

John 1:14 starts a new paragraph, and John 1:13 concludes a paragraph; therefore, John 1:13 and John 1:14 are different paragraphs. These different paragraphs have individual paragraphical topics.

Now back to the paragraph which includes John 1:13.

Neither Irenaeus, Tertullian, nor Augustine are contributors to the scripture recorded by the Apostle John.

Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Augustine are subsequent to John; in other words, neither Irenaeus, Tertullian, nor Augustine are antecedents to John.

Your use of Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Augustine serves to illumine your precepts of men (Matthew 15:9).

The topic of the paragraph containing John 1:13 can be found in the first verse of the paragraph "There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man" (John 1:9); therefore, the topic is Christ affecting individual men, and Christ is God (John 20:28).

So, the paragraph topic maintains that John 1:13 illumines how God affects man. "Nor of the will of man" eliminates free-will choice for individual men, and "who were born" "of God" solidifies that God causes man to believe (John 6:29).

John did not use a singular form for the first word of John 1;13, and the singular form is requisite for "who" to refer to Christ; therefore, your narrow "refers to Christ Himself and not those who would believe on His Name" is deception.

Since John used the plural inflection for "who" in "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:13) refers to God causing individual men to believer in Christ (John 6:29).
 

Kermos

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Hello Kermos,

God says what He means and means what He says. He says, 'All Israel shall be saved': Israel comprises the seed of Isaac; for God told Abraham, 'in Isaac shall thy seed be called'. (Genesis 21:12; Romans 9:7; Hebrews 11:8).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

(Note: I have responded to your reply #2282. This is all I have time for at the moment. Replies #2283 and #2284 will have to be addressed at another time.}

God caused Paul to write what God means with "they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel" (Romans 9:6).

In reference to unbelieving Israelites, Paul wote "for if God did not spare the natural branches" (Romans 11:21).

"if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree" (Romans 11:17).

All of Israel will be saved from the wrath of God (Romans 11:26), and this Israel is made up of the persons whom God chooses to compose Israel (Romans 11:24). God grafts into Israel the persons whom God grafts into Israel; moreover this is not a function of the free will choice of man, rather this is the Power of God unto salvation (1 Corinthians 1:24, Romans 1:16).
 
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Kermos

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Hello Kermos,

You claim to know my heart!! Yet only the Lord Himself can know men's hearts, or make righteous judgments. I leave this subject to Him Who knows all, and bow to His authority. May His Word, rightly divided, be the Arbiter on this matter as all others.

* It would have been good to have responded to replies #2283 and #2284, but as you have already passed judgement upon me, I really do not see that anything can be achieved by doing so.

Within the love of Christ our Saviour,
our Lord and Head.
Chris

"The things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. These are the things which defile the man" (Matthew 15:18-20) proclaims Lord Jesus, Who is Christ and Savior and Word and Light and GOD!

Your free-willian philosophy comes out of your heart.

"Judge with righteous judgment" (John 7:24) declares Lord Jesus to we born of God.

Lord Jesus has me here judging you righteously based upon that which proceeds from your heart.
 

brightfame52

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The all for whom Christ was given to be a ransom for !3

All those whom Christ was given as a ransom for 1 Tim 2:6

6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

They shall be returned [unto God] or converted, Isa 35:10

10 And the ransomed of the Lord shall return, and come to Zion with songs and everlasting joy upon their heads: they shall obtain joy and gladness, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away.

The promise is, they shall return and come to zion Heb 12:22-24

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

The idea is that the ransomed of the Lord shall be converted and returned from their captivity to sin, the world and the devil, which all men by nature are captive by, yet the ransomed [those Christ died for] they shall be returned or converted out of it.

All the elect originally in Adam were taken captive by the devil as indicated here 2 Tim 2:26

26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Adam through his wife eve was taken captive by the devil at his will, notice the sacred narrative of Gen 3:1-8, but the ransomed of the Lord shall be recovered from this captivity in order to believe and submit to the Truth !
 

brightfame52

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'And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish,
but have eternal life.'

(Joh 3:14-15)

Hello @brightfame52,

The Bible does not make that distinction.

God in His foreknowledge knows beforehand who will believe and who will not: not because He has foreordained it that way; but because He knows the hearts of man and knows whether they will believe or not; but the word is sounded forth that all may have the opportunity to hear and believe on His Name. All without distinction. For God is no respecter of persons (Matthew 5:45).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris
Its only the Sheep that believe, they were ordained to eternal life Acts 13:48
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

God in His foreknowledge determined who should believe.
 

brightfame52

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I didn't say you were confused. Perhaps you didn't know that "confuse" has more than one meaning.

For instance, If I say, "a lot of people confuse a stroke with a heart attack", I'm saying that people mistakenly get the two mixed up. They identify the symptoms incorrectly.

As a brother in Christ, I am trying to help you with your exegetical skills, pointing out that understanding the meaning of a passage is different than understanding the significance of a passage.

Your arguments in this thread superimpose the significance of the cross over the top of various passages that speak about the inclusiveness of the cross, inadvertently obscuring what the passages are actually trying to say. This forces you to redefine words like "all" and "whosoever", which is a clear indication that you have work to do with regard to your understanding of these passages.
You still sound confused friend, Im laying out the truth here in this thread.
 

charity

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God in His foreknowledge determined who should believe.
Hello @brightfame52,

I would ask you to seriously consider the implication of what you are saying, and not ascribe unto God something so grossly contrary to His nature.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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