The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[michaelvpardo]

Christ died for only His Sheep, or His Church His Body which are the same. And that should be preached to every creature, who Christ specifically died for !

You don't have to argue with me, it's the word of God that you're in disagreement with.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ was manifested for the Elect of God only !

Peter wrote only to Gods Elect/Believers, those whom God had foreknown 1 Pet 1:20-21

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,993

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

Notice carefully Vs 20, Christ was manifested in the last time FOR you, which are these whom Peter addresses here 1 Pet 1:1-2

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

All are not the foreknown of God we know that from Rom 11:2

2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,

And here Matt 7:23

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

He is also writing to them only that had been begotten again by the Resurrection of Christ from the dead 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

This happened before they became believers, and is why they became believers !

Now again this is whom Christ was Manifested for Peter wrote 1 Pet 1:20 !

This election is made manifested or known by their Sanctification of the Spirit unto obedience, which is Gospel obedience, or belief of the Truth as in 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Now thats specifically who Christ was manifested for; this same manifested one is written of here 1 Jn 3:5,8

5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

He was manifested to take away our sins [not for all, but only for them whose sins He took away] which would be the sins of the elect Rom 11:27,

Again 1 Jn 3:8 declares that He was manifested for the purpose of destroying the works of the devil

which one of those works is blinding the minds of the lost so that they believe not, he hides the Gospel from them 2 Cor 4:3-4, or he may snatch away the word that is sowed so they dont believe and be saved according to Lk 8:12

12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

But unto them Christ died for, Christ's Work has destroyed that work of the devil which we read of in Lk 8:12 and 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[brightfame52]

Here is the bottom line. You are attempting to argue for the doctrine of limited atonement based on a faulty premise. Your argument goes something like this: The purpose of the death of Christ was to make reparations for sin. The death of Christ is efficacious for the elect without fail. The death of Christ is limited in purpose and scope to the elect. Therefore, Christ did not die for everyone without exception.

Your argument erroneously assumes that the purpose of the cross was the expiation of sins. This is not Biblical. Paul tells us that the purpose of the cross was reconciliation, not reparations for sin.

Here's the deal, Im showing why from scripture, why its a myth to declare that Christ died for all without exception.

 

[brightfame52]

You don't have to argue with me, it's the word of God that you're in disagreement with.

Its the word of God Im teaching, the truth of God as it is in Christ Jesus.

 

[Kermos]

Jesus didn't buy disciples.

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" says Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 20:28).

Jesus says "ransom" which means to purchase freedom from sin describing we disciples whom He has bought for we live and breathe in the Word of God.

@CadyandZoe it sure sounds to me that you have to excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

@charity you appear to have retreated into the darkness because you have not responded to the post that CadyandZoe has responded with "the word of CadyandZoe".

 

[CadyandZoe]

Here's the deal, Im showing why from scripture, why its a myth to declare that Christ died for all without exception.

So far you haven't addressed that question.

 

[CadyandZoe]

"The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many" says Lord Jesus Christ (Matthew 20:28).

Jesus says "ransom" which means to purchase freedom from sin describing we disciples whom He has bought for we live and breathe in the Word of God.

@CadyandZoe it sure sounds to me that you have to excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

@charity you appear to have retreated into the darkness because you have not responded to the post that CadyandZoe has responded with "the word of CadyandZoe".

Paying the ransom to set a slave free is not the same thing as buying a slave.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ was manifested for the Elect of God only !2


Folks Unbelief is a Work of the devil, it began as his work from the beginning with Eve, whe he caused her to disbelieve God Gen 3:1-6

Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:

3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.

4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

She obviously believed the Lie of the serpent over Gods command, when the serpent said to her "Ye shall not surely die"

She had already stated what God said Gen 3:3 so she believed the devil over God, which means Unbelief, Disobedience ! And man is imprsioned in that Unbelief Rom 11:32, unless Christ was manifested for them and took away their sins, in which case they must be set free from that prison of unbelief !

Now its a simple logical deduction from this, Unbelief is a work of the devil, and for one to remain in unbelief, they are under the power of the devil, and his power over them has not been defeated and they are operating from this spirit Eph 2:2

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

But Glory to God that through Christ, if we be of the Elect, that power of the devil has been destroyed 1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

And because this is True, the Elect become Believers , Obedience 1 Pet 1:2 because of Him that was manifested for them 1 Pet 1:20-21

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

If He was Manifested for Us to take away Our sins, we shall believe in the True God and Jesus Christ Jn 17:3

3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

To Know Him aright is to believe in Him Isa 43:10

Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

So if we teach that one Christ died for goes to hell in unbelief for their sins, we are teaching that Christ's Purpose for coming and being manifested was thwarted by the devil 1 Jn 3:5,8 ! And thats Blasphemy !

 

[brightfame52]

So far you haven't addressed that question.

Yes I have, that's eactly what the thread is about.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes I have, that's eactly what the thread is about.

Not really. So far your posts address questions like, "who are the children of God? Who is God saving?"

You want to argue that Christ died for the sins of the elect alone. But so far, you haven't offered any scriptures to support that idea. You think you have, but you haven't because the set of all people for whom Christ died is greater in number than the set of all people whom God will save. Why? Because the expiation of sin is only one aspect of salvation. Just because a person is not going to be saved doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for that person.

 

[brightfame52]

Not really. So far your posts address questions like, "who are the children of God? Who is God saving?"

You want to argue that Christ died for the sins of the elect alone. But so far, you haven't offered any scriptures to support that idea. You think you have, but you haven't because the set of all people for whom Christ died is greater in number than the set of all people whom God will save. Why? Because the expiation of sin is only one aspect of salvation. Just because a person is not going to be saved doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for that person.

Yes really !

 

[Kermos]

Paying the ransom to set a slave free is not the same thing as buying a slave.

Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), paying the ransom (Matthew 20:28) for "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" is the Righteous One purchasing His disciple. Paul wrote "having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Christ bought His own (John 10:27-29).

In effect, @CadyandZoe you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

 

[brightfame52]

Why He did not die for all without exception !

We know that Christ did not die for all without exception because all without exception were not by His Death Perfected forever Heb 10:10-14

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

If we are not being sanctified by His Death Vs 10, then He did not die or offer Himself for us !

The Being Perfected for ever doeth include our Justification from all sin, because based upon Christ's Offering, His Blood being shed for the New Covenant Matt 26:28 for the remission of sins, these sins and iniquties shall not be remembered anymore as Promised a few verses down after Heb 10:14 in Vs 17

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Now Remission of sins is from the blood of Christ Matt 26:28

28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins/Justification from sins.


And this remission of sins is not for all without exception, whereby their sins are remembered no more, simply because many shall die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24

24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

The only reason why they die in their sins is because God has remembered them against them, like of these Rev 18:5

For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

So these could not have been those Christ died for and Perfected forever, and whose sins are no more remembered by God Heb 10:10-18 !

 

[CadyandZoe]

Lord Jesus Christ, the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), paying the ransom (Matthew 20:28) for "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" is the Righteous One purchasing His disciple. Paul wrote "having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Paul wrote "you have been bought with a price" (1 Corinthians 6:20).

Christ bought His own (John 10:27-29).

In effect, @CadyandZoe you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

You didn't actually address my point. You know the difference between buying a slave and setting a slave free don't you?

 

[Kermos]

You didn't actually address my point. You know the difference between buying a slave and setting a slave free don't you?

The Word of God proved your point wrong before you even wrote your post.

Lord Jesus sets "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) free from the punishment for sin (Matthew 20:28); therefore the Word of God buys "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Since Christ is the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we disciples of Christ are slaves of Christ the Righteousness One because He bought us with His precious Blood (1 Corinthians 6:20).

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

 

[Kermos]

<<<But God still reserves the right to have mercy on whomever he wishes. This is why I say that the offering of Jesus blood is not efficacious for those who will not repent or approach God in contrition.>>>

Of course God does. Nonetheless, we speak of Christ’s offering and not of the old testament offering by the high priest. Now, Christ’s offering is ever effective, and its effectiveness does not, in any way, shape, or form, depended on the people. That God accepted His offering speaks of its effectiveness. And so, accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world. And that was an already done and finished matter.

Now, at this point, I would like mention that propitiation is not salvation unto eternal life. Also, that while Christ died for all men in that sense, Christ did not die for all men for salvation unto eternal life, but only for the people whom the Father had given to the Son to raise up in the last day, those whom God had foreknew, predestined, called, justified, glorified.

That’s right. The means is God’s, not man’s.



Well, as I said, I don’t seem to see any such invitation, or an offer for that matter.



<<<In the same way, we describe the phenomenon of salvation from our own point of view.>>>

“phenomenon of salvation”? That’s new to my hearing.

Going back, my point in that part of my post to which you are here responding to is that, God’s salvation is already been accomplished by Jesus Christ, about a couple of thousand years ago. And since then what He had accomplished is unfolding, and is being revealed in time.

Notice, Jesus’ commandment to the chosen apostles was to preach the gospel and also make disciples of all the nations. Now what is the gospel that the apostles preached? Is it not Jesus Christ ~ His person, life, death, and resurrection? The gospel is not about how to be saved, but about the salvation of God, that is come, Jesus Christ. As is any news that comes to people, we see some who believes and some who don’t. Those who believe, they are those whom Christ saved at the cross, by His death and resurrection. They will all be revealed in time, all from the time of Adam until the last day.

Tong
R4391

You wrote "accepted by God as it is, Christ effectively had made propitiation for the sins of the whole world" with respect to1 John 2:2.

The phrase "the whole world" occurs in one other place in the First Book of John, and the next paragraph shows the location.

@Tong2020, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of "the whole world" as it is written in "the whole world lies in the evil one" (1 John 5:19)?

It appears we are about to find out whether @Tong2020 is capable to give an answer.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Word of God proved your point wrong before you even wrote your post.

Lord Jesus sets "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) free from the punishment for sin (Matthew 20:28); therefore the Word of God buys "the slave of sin" (John 8:34) to become "the slave of righteousness" (Romans 6:18).

Since Christ is the Righteousness of every disciple of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21), then we disciples of Christ are slaves of Christ the Righteousness One because He bought us with His precious Blood (1 Corinthians 6:20).

When you wrote "Jesus didn't buy disciples", then, in effect, @CadyandZoe, you excluded yourself from the ransom that Jesus paid!

Why won't you address my question though? You don't seem to understand the difference between buying a slave and setting one free. His blood was the basis for our redemption but he didn't use his blood as money to buy us. Right?

 

[Cassandra]

I can't figure out what all the hubbub is about. .



Jesus has paved the way for all. whosoever, wants to come, can come. But not all will. But if all would come, no one would be left out.

 

[CadyandZoe]

I can't figure out what all the hubbub is about. .



Jesus has paved the way for all. whosoever, wants to come, can come. But not all will. But if all would come, no one would be left out.

You are right of course.
FYI we are basically discussing the theological doctrine of "Limited Atonement" or "particular redemption." Even more basic is the fundamental question, "why did Jesus need to die? What purpose did his death serve and what did it mean exactly?"

For example, St. Anselm of Canterbury postulated a theory of the atonement based on feudalism, which was common during his era. The following is an excerpt from Britannica St. Anselm of Canterbury - The satisfaction theory of redemption

According to this theory, which is based upon the feudal structure of society, finite humanity has committed a crime (sin) against infinite God. In feudal society, an offender was required to make recompense, or satisfaction, to the one offended according to that person’s status. Thus, a crime against a king would require more satisfaction than a crime against a baron or a serf. According to this way of thinking, finite humanity, which could never make satisfaction to the infinite God, could expect only eternal death. The instrument for bringing humans back into a right relationship with God, therefore, could be rendered only by someone who was both God—because God could overcome sin by sinlessness—and human—because humans were those who were guilty of sin. Anselm held that the death of the God-human (Christ) on the cross was the only rationally intelligible way in which sinful humankind could have been reconciled with God. Atonement is made possible through Christ, by whose infinite merits humanity is purified in an act of cooperative re-creation. Anselm rejected the view that humanity, through its sin, owes a debt to the Devil and placed the essence of redemption in individual union with Christ in the Eucharist (Lord’s Supper), to which the sacrament of baptism (by which a person is incorporated into the church) opens the way.​

Was St. Anselm right? I don't think so. I think he is reading his cultural values into the text. Nonetheless, as we interact with his opinion, comparing his theory with the Biblical text, we learn more about our faith. I think. That's why discussions like these can be helpful as we interact with each other's ideas. Anyway, that's what the hubbub is about.

 

[Cassandra]

I didn't know you were interacting with the validity of his opinion.