The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Ezra]

however you understand this it is up to you all of us are just the same we all have our own understanding have you also wonder why no religion seems to recommend other unrelated to their religion stating that this religion is also one of us a true church of God and if you join them they can help you be saved

i agree with you. but i have to wonder why you put your 2 cents in also

 

[brightfame52]

that is amazing since the Bible says have all men be saved
1 Timothy 2:4

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”


will all be saved ? no since God gives mankind freewill there will always be those who reject salvation there is even the whosoever shall .
i been down this road so many times .butting heads with reformed/Calvinism teaching. i am like a pro wrestler scar tissue on my forehead.

facts are Christ paid the price so any that calls upon him can be saved
Romans 5:8
King James Version

8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

2 Peter
Chapter 3 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

i am by far a universalists believes everyone gets saved and goes to heaven. but the cross was the penalty payment for sins . clearing the way that all can be saved provided they have been drawn by the spirit/conviction . its Jesus way truth life not mans doctrine

Again Jesus Mission was never to come and save all mankind

 

[Ezra]

Again Jesus Mission was never to come and save all mankind

and again he paid the price so all men could be saved not a select few

 

[Tong2020]

and again he paid the price so all men could be saved not a select few

May I ask, if one encounters the word of God, especially the gospel preached by the apostles, and do not believe (until the end of his life), what do you know scriptures says of such people? What does Jesus say why they do not believe?

Curious.

Tong
R4642

 

[Kermos]

It's sinful, some would say evil, for God to punish Jesus instead of me. But God didn't punish Jesus instead of me. God forgave my sins. Right? Matthew 9:2 And he continues to forgive my sins. 1 John 1:9 To forgive sins is to absolve from payment.

At the end of Romans chapter 5, Paul argues that grace trumps justice. Or in his words, God's grace is overabundant. (It superabounds) God forebears sins; he passes over them; eventually he takes them away.

So then, if God forgives our sins, why the cross then? What did Jesus say about going to the cross? What purpose did he give for his own sacrifice? In his words, his blood would inaugurate a new, eternal covenant. Luke 22:20 1 Corinthians 11:25 He gave his blood for the forgiveness of sins. Matthew 26:28 And though we are forgiven of our sins, we remain slaves of sin. John 8:34. Jesus likens the cross to the fiery serpent Moses lifted up on a staff. Numbers 21:8, John 3:14 He tells the people that he came to set the people free. John 8:36 Presumably this is why the cross is associated with redemption, which is the act of paying to have prisoners set free. Ephesians 1:7

Since Jesus likens the cross to the fiery serpent Moses placed on a staff, we understand the essential correlation between them involves the way the cross is perceived by the penitent. What do you see? What does it indicate? What does it mean to me personally? These are the questions we face when we think about the cross. And since Jesus made this association, perhaps this is the reason why Paul argues that the cross served as a public demonstration -- again, optics. Romans 3:26

When "Jesus likens the cross to the fiery serpent Moses lifted up on a staff", then He explains "that he came to set" specific "people free".

Lord Jesus did not indicate that God loves every person everywhere as you illegitimately purported, and the truthful explanation follows.

The Word "World" in John 3:16 (John 3:14-16)
The first order is to look at Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).

The second order is to examine the history of "the serpent in the wilderness" that Jesus mentions (see John 3:14):

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)

The third order is to listen to the Master.

Jesus sets "the serpent in the wilderness" "lifted up" in relation to "the Son of Man" "lifted up" (all in John 3:14).

Jesus then states "so that every believing will in" Jesus "have eternal life" (John 3:15), but He intensifies this statement by repeating it right away.

Jesus continues with "for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son" (John 3:16), and here is where Jesus mentions "world".

Jesus follows up with intensifying his prior declaration (John 3:15) with "that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

The fourth order is to acknowledge the Master's words.

Jesus mentioned "the serpent in the wilderness", so by this He brings up the account of the bronze serpent (John 3:16includes Numbers 21:8-9).

The relation that Jesus set between the bronze serpent lifted up and Himself lifted up bears significance upon the population of persons that Jesus establishes for the word "world" in John 3:16.

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).

Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).

Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).

Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Post continued to post #2266

 

[Kermos]

continued from post #2265

God told Moses that a person bitten by one of the serpents "will live" when the person looks at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

In other words, the population of persons associated with living by looking at "the serpent in the wilderness" was restricted to ONLY the bitten persons that looked at the bronze serpent. For simplicity, I'll call this the "population of bitten look livers".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons. This population of persons are not in the "population of bitten look livers". For example, this population of persons could include bitten persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness". This population of persons I'll call the "population of non-bitten-look-livers".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16). There was the "population of bitten look livers"; meanwhile, there was the "population of non-bitten-look-livers"

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "population of bitten look livers" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9) and the population of persons represented by the word "world" who believe in Jesus (John 3:16).

God requires for persons to believe in Jesus in order to be granted eternal life by God (John 3:15, John 3:16).

So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

This relation set by Jesus establishes that the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:14-16includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

Before and after saying "world", Jesus establishes the requirement of believing in Jesus in order for persons to be in the population of persons granted eternal life by God.

Jesus, the Word of God, says "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent" (John 6:29).

Jesus defines righteous faith/belief such that a person believing in Jesus whom the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29).

Jesus attributes a complete package, a whole gift, a finished work which He refers to as "that you believe in Him whom He has sent".

God deposits "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" in a person as a complete, sufficiently functioning work by God unto salvation of the person with nothing additional by the person as necessary, no choice by the person, no work of a decision by the person, no acceptance by the person, nothing by the person to achieve salvation.

So, "that you believe in Him whom He has sent" is a complete thing with nothing more to add by the person to the righteous faith/belief deposited by God unto being saved from the wrath of God.

Jesus clearly explains that the "believe in Him whom He has sent" is locked inside of the "you" specified by Jesus (John 6:29).

This "locking" is "the work of God" for God secures all of God's own persons unto eternal life (John 10:27-29).

The whole pagkage is done, finished, and complete.

There is nothing more "to be done" by the "you" with the finished package in order to obtain the gift of eternal life in God.

Thus, the only persons with righteous faith/belief implanted by God for a person's salvation are in the population of persons with eternal life in God (John 6:29, John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of God's chosen persons ONLY.

When self-will persons (2 Peter 2:9-10) define the "world" in John 3:16 as everyone everywhere without exception, then such persons assert that the Truth (Jesus - John 14:6) tells a lie. The deception results because such persons have Jesus losing persons eternally in spite of Him saying "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

The "no one" in "no one will snatch them out of My hand" means no one, not the devil, not the person himself or herself, not another person. The "no one" means absolutely NO ONE.

If the word "world" in John 3:16 includes the population of persons who die while in disbelief/unfaith, then God lost some persons to eternal punishment instead of eternal life.

Since believing in the Son of God whom God the Father has sent is the work of God (John 6:29) and no one will snatch a God rooted believer out of Jesus' hand (John 10:28), then the population of persons represented by the word "world" by Jesus as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:16) must of necessity be only persons who currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus unto eternal life in God.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the "world" as the population of believers, God's chosen persons, existing or yet to be ONLY.

The word "world" in John 3:16 is the population of persons currently are or in the future to be imparted the work of God unto salvation that is faith/belief in Lord Jesus Christ whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

 

[Ezra]

May I ask, if one encounters the word of God, especially the gospel preached by the apostles, and do not believe (until the end of his life), what do you know scriptures says of such people? What does Jesus say why they do not believe?

Curious.

Tong
R4642

if you come into the Bod at 11:59 you still make it in . the Bible says God word will not return Void .while your curious about what i am not sure . the spirit quickens . we have no control over when a person is saved .

 

[Ezra]

So, it follows, when Lord Jesus says "God so loved the world" (John 3:16), then specifically He is saying God loves the ones who will believe in Jesus whom the Father has sent (John 6:29).

this is one of the lace i split with Calvinism if he tasted death for all he is not willing any should perish if he dies for US while WE were yet sinners. he does not pick and chose what sinners get saved/ if one hears the word a seed is sown it may take a while for that seed to find good ground.

 

[Kermos]

None of the verses you quote speak to the question. Have you ever read this passage?

Romans 5:6-11

For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

Points to consider:
Christ died for us while we were still helpless
Christ died for the ungodly
Christ died for sinners, while they were yet sinners
We were reconciled while we were enemies
We shall be saved by his life.

For this reason, the New Testament says that Christ died for the whole world. The scriptures you quoted speak to the part I highlighted in bold. The world isn’t saved by his death because no one is saved by his death. Those whom God is saving are saved by his life. This is a very important distinction don’t you think?

Since you wrote “Christ died for the whole world” which appears to be a reference to 1 John 2:2, then here is a question for you:

@CadyandZoe, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of “the whole world” as it is written in “the whole world lies in the evil one” (1 John 5:19)?

 

[Kermos]

this is one of the lace i split with Calvinism if he tasted death for all he is not willing any should perish if he dies for US while WE were yet sinners. he does not pick and chose what sinners get saved/ if one hears the word a seed is sown it may take a while for that seed to find good ground.

Lord Jesus Christ, the Christ in Christian, has me here proclaiming Christian Truth (John 14:6).

So, you convey that you "split with" Christian Truth.

You wrote "if he tasted death for all", but Christ did not taste death for all because that results in Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You wrote "he is not willing any should perish", so in your heart's thoughts you have Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

You wrote "if he dies for US while WE were yet sinners", but Christ did not die for all sinners.

You wrote "if one hears the word a seed is sown it may take a while for that seed to find good ground", but the only persons that hear and understand are persons whom the Lord has opened the ears for Christ speaks powerfully with "Ephphatha" (Mark 7:31-35).

You wrote "he does not pick and chose what sinners get saved", but, truly, truly the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
May I ask, if one encounters the word of God, especially the gospel preached by the apostles, and do not believe (until the end of his life), what do you know scriptures says of such people? What does Jesus say why they do not believe?

if you come into the Bod at 11:59 you still make it in . the Bible says God word will not return Void .while your curious about what i am not sure . the spirit quickens . we have no control over when a person is saved .

What I am curious about is if you know what Jesus said why they do not believe.

They do not believe, not for so many other reasons, but because they are not His (Christ’s) sheep.

Tong
R4649

 

[ThePuffyBlob]

i agree with you. but i have to wonder why you put your 2 cents in also

just a proof that i am a sinner also a hypocrite no different than those people whom i hate knowing this makes me feel lost

 

[brightfame52]

and again he paid the price so all men could be saved not a select few

Wrong, it was for a select few in comparison to all without exception.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Since you wrote “Christ died for the whole world” which appears to be a reference to 1 John 2:2, then here is a question for you:

@CadyandZoe, do you believe that you, right now, are a part of “the whole world” as it is written in “the whole world lies in the evil one” (1 John 5:19)?

Of course.
Jesus said, "
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

 

[Ezra]

What I am curious about is if you know what Jesus said why they do not believe.

blinded by the god of this world.................................................. i speak from experience the call it free will which leaves a bad taste in a Calvinist............. sorry

 

[Ezra]

Wrong, it was for a select few in comparison to all without exception.

i suppose you was of the select few.. aint you special

 

[MatthewG]

What does Jesus say?

For more on God raising Jesus and paying for all sins. If anyone is curious.

 

[Tong2020]

blinded by the god of this world.................................................. i speak from experience the call it free will which leaves a bad taste in a Calvinist............. sorry

As I said “They do not believe, not for so many other reasons, but because they are not His (Christ’s) sheep.”

I learned that from Jesus Christ Himself, in the scriptures.

Tong
R4651

 

[Kermos]

Of course.
Jesus said, "
These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world.”

That's right, and the only persons that hear and understand are persons whom the Lord has chosen to open the ears for Christ speaks powerfully with "Ephphatha" (Mark 7:31-35).

Therefore "the world" in "I have overcome the world" (John 16:33) represents the people saved from the wrath of God by Christ - the people whom Christ has chosen for the Christ says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) and "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).

 

[charity]

Lord Jesus Christ, the Christ in Christian, has me here proclaiming Christian Truth (John 14:6).
So, you convey that you "split with" Christian Truth.
You wrote "if he tasted death for all", but Christ did not taste death for all because that results in Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30).

You wrote "he is not willing any should perish", so in your heart's thoughts you have Christ failing to fulfill His promise of "I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand" (John 10:28).

You wrote "if he dies for US while WE were yet sinners", but Christ did not die for all sinners.

You wrote "if one hears the word a seed is sown it may take a while for that seed to find good ground", but the only persons that hear and understand are persons whom the Lord has opened the ears for Christ speaks powerfully with "Ephphatha" (Mark 7:31-35).

You wrote "he does not pick and chose what sinners get saved", but, truly, truly the Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Hello @Kermos,

I hope you will bear with me, as I consider the verses you have quoted in your entry (above), beginning with John 14:6, quoted from verse 3:-

'And if I go and prepare a place for you.
I will come again, and receive you unto Myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.
And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
Thomas saith unto Him,

"Lord, we know not whither Thou goest;
and how can we know the way?"​

Jesus saith unto him,

"I am the way, the truth, and the life:
no man cometh unto the Father, but by Me."​

(John 14:3-6)

* The Lord Jesus Christ tells His disciples not only where He is going ('unto the Father'), but also the means by which they can be with Him. it is by the Lord Jesus Christ. For He has told them that He will come again, and receive them unto Himself, that where He is, there they may be also. Praise His Name!

* Then you quoted John 10:27-30:-
'My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish,
neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand.
My Father, which gave them Me, is greater than all;
and no man is able to pluck them out of My Father's hand.
I and My Father are one.'
(John 10:27-30)

* The Lord Jesus was talking to Jews, unbelieving Jews, who sought to kill Him, so He did not speak to them plainly: once more He resorts to figurative speech. They had been given opportunity to believe. The works that He did, were obviously Divine miracles, and therefore should have testified to Who He was to anyone with eyes to see. No, 'He came unto His own, and His own received Him not. But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.' (Joh 1:11-13) He came unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel, but only a remnant would believe. They were His sheep, for they heard His voice and followed Him. Paul explains in Romans why a remnant only were saved, but assured that believing remnant, that one day all Israel would be saved.

'For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,
lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written,
'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:
but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.'
(Rom 11:25-29)

* You referred also to Mark 7:31-35:-
'And again, departing from the coasts of Tyre and Sidon,
He came unto the sea of Galilee, through the midst of the coasts of Decapolis.
And they bring unto Him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech;
and they beseech Him to put His hand upon him.
And He took him aside from the multitude, and put His fingers into his ears,
and He spit, and touched his tongue;
And looking up to heaven, He sighed, and saith unto him, "Ephphatha, that is, Be opened."'
And straightway his ears were opened, and the string of his tongue was loosed, and he spake plain.'
(Mark 7:31-35)

* This was a miraculous happening towards a man who had an impediment of his speech, so not dumb, but possibly rendered so by his inability to hear. This man's malady was Satanic in origin, his tongue bound:The Lord loosed the string of his tongue, and once loosed he spoke plainly (see Luke 13:16 [10-16]).

* John 15:16: Here the Lord Jesus was talking to His disciples:-
'Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth:
but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of My Father I have made known unto you.
Ye have not chosen Me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you,
that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain:
that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in My name, He may give it you.'
(Joh 15:15)

* These were the twelve, chosen indeed by God the Father, through the Son.

* John 15:19:
'If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you.
If ye were of the world, the world would love his own:
but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world,
therefore the world hateth you.'
(Joh 15:18-19)

* These are the twelve, many who would go on to know martyrdom for His Name.

'* You also referred to:-
John 17:20-21, - 'Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;

That they all may be one; as Thou, Father, art in me, and I in Thee,
that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent Me.'
​

Matthew 19:25-26, - 'When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.'​

John 15:5, - 'I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit:

for without me ye can do nothing.'​

Isaiah 42:8, - 'I am the LORD: that is My Name: and My glory will I not give to another, neither My praise to graven images.'
Psalm 3:8. - 'Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: Thy blessing is upon Thy people.'

* With respect these verses should be kept within their context, and understood in relation to it. For they do not provide the evidence you require to back your argument.

* Salvation is open to all who will believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour and Lord, and acknowledge Him to be the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris