The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Davy]

According to you, Christ failed to save everybody he died for on the cross.

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Christ Jesus offered His Salvation to ALL... that believe on Him, irregardless of who they are. The ONLY exception to that is, that His Salvation is only for those born in the flesh.

Since you support such idiocy against Christ, welcome to my IGNORE list.

 

[Kermos]

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Christ Jesus offered His Salvation to ALL... that believe on Him, irregardless of who they are. The ONLY exception to that is, that His Salvation is only for those born in the flesh.

Since you support such idiocy against Christ, welcome to my IGNORE list.

@Davy, you IGNORE the Word of God for God had me proclaim the Word of God to you.

Christ summons (calls), not offers, His salvation, not only based on the original Greek word used for "calls", but truly because...

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Since God exclusively chooses people unto salvation, then Jesus died only for the people that He has chosen unto salvation.

 

[brightfame52]

There's a specific promise of only one seed that shall be justified in the Lord ! Thats limited or particular Justification ! Not intended for all without exception !

Isa 45:25

In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

 

[Kermos]

You don't have a clue as to what you're talking about. Christ Jesus offered His Salvation to ALL... that believe on Him, irregardless of who they are. The ONLY exception to that is, that His Salvation is only for those born in the flesh.

Since you support such idiocy against Christ, welcome to my IGNORE list.

Hey @brightfame52, check out what @Davy wrote.

Davy actually constrained the word "all" to "that believe on Him".

Davy literally provides affirmation of why you started this thread - that is, that Christ died for His sheep ONLY.

 

[brightfame52]

Salvation is made sure through Christ, not to all mankind, but to the Seed Rom 4:16

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

In the original there is a definite article before seed:

διὰ τοῦτο ἐκ πίστεως ἵνα κατὰ χάριν εἰς τὸ εἶναι βεβαίαν τὴν ἐπαγγελίαν παντὶ τῷ σπέρματι οὐ τῷ ἐκ τοῦ νόμου μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τῷ ἐκ πίστεως Ἀβραάμ ὅς ἐστιν πατὴρ πάντων ἡμῶν

The word panti all refers the seed. The word seed means:

1. family, tribe, posterity,
   1. children, offspring, progeny
      
      
      1. metaph. a seed i.e. a residue, or a few survivors reserved as the germ of the next generation (just as seed is kept from the harvest for the sowing)
         
         Its also a residue or remnant. James referred to the gentiles as a residue Acts 15:17
         
         That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
   
   Residue means left remaining.
   
   The promise of salvation to mankind is for a particular seed, its in Christ 2 Cor 1:20
   
   For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
   
   The promises are sure to Christs seed Isa 53:10
   
   10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
   
   Remember Christ is Abrahams Seed Gal 3:16 and the Church is One with Christ because Hes the Head of the Church. Just remember a seed isnt all of mankind but only a residue or remnant.

 

[quietthinker]

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Jesus absorbed humanity's anger. It was in his power to bounce it back on them...a window of this is seen when he asked the mob, 'who are you looking for? and 'I am he'. They fell down as Jesus projected his energy. He asked them again, now submitting to them. I don't think this is a myth. It says something loudly for those with eyes and ears to hear.

 

[brightfame52]

All the Salvation, justification promises are for a specific seed, Israel, not all mankind Isa 45:25 ,17

25In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

These are Gospel Promises ascertained to Gods chosen People in Christ, Israel.

The same to be said about the Gospel promises of the New Covenant which Christ [the head of the church] is Mediator Heb 8:6-12

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he [Christ] is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.


7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.


8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.


10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:


11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.


12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Now here is wisdom, the House of Israel here and Judah contains a Mystery, and that Mystery is this Eph 3:1-6


For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,


2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:


3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,


4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;


6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Mystery is that Gentiles are included within the body of Israel to whom God made Gospel Promises to such as Isa 45:17,25; Heb 8:6-12

 

[Kermos]

The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !
Jesus absorbed humanity's anger. It was in his power to bounce it back on them...a window of this is seen when he asked the mob, 'who are you looking for? and 'I am he'. They fell down as Jesus projected his energy. He asked them again, now submitting to them. I don't think this is a myth. It says something loudly for those with eyes and ears to hear.

Here's the passage you referenced:

4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
6 So when He said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”
9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”
(John 18:4-9)

Three amazing points:

1. Lord Jesus says "I am" twice (verses 6 and 8).
2. the mob of non-disciples "drew back and fell to the ground" (verse 6) which is a signal of judgement, fear, and/or condemnation.
3. Jesus commands the mob of non-disciples regarding His disciples "let these go their way" (verse 8) which illumines that His friends (His disciples) are the persons for whom He died (John 15:13).

Indeed, much is said there, but not some promiscuous dearh on the cross by Jesus for everyone everywhere in all time.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross exclusively for His friends.

 

[quietthinker]

Here's the passage you referenced:

4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, “Whom do you seek?”
5 They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am.” And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them.
6 So when He said to them, “I am,” they drew back and fell to the ground.
7 Therefore He again asked them, “Whom do you seek?” And they said, “Jesus the Nazarene.”
8 Jesus answered, “I told you that I am; so if you seek Me, let these go their way,”
9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, “Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one.”
(John 18:4-9)

Three amazing points:

1. Lord Jesus says "I am" twice (verses 6 and 8).
2. the mob of non-disciples "drew back and fell to the ground" (verse 6) which is a signal of judgement, fear, and/or condemnation.
3. Jesus commands the mob of non-disciples regarding His disciples "let these go their way" (verse 8) which illumines that His friends (His disciples) are the persons for whom He died (John 15:13).

Indeed, much is said there, but not some promiscuous dearh on the cross by Jesus for everyone everywhere in all time.

Truly, Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross exclusively for His friends.

if I call you my friend and you do not call me your friend because we have differences, who is the most generous?
I don't require an answer however, you can work it out!

 

[Kermos]

if I call you my friend and you do not call me your friend because we have differences, who is the most generous?
I don't require an answer however, you can work it out!

I'm not referring to you, a mere mortal, calling anyone friend.

It's a matter of He Who is the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24):

• The Power of God generously and graciously causes persons to be His friends.
• The Power of God saves persons from the wrath of God.

God has me proclaiming to you that God Himself establishes His friends (John 15:15) and that Lord Jesus Christ died for His friends (John 15:13).

Therefore, Jesus Christ died exclusively for His friends.

 

[quietthinker]

I'm not referring to you, a mere mortal, calling anyone friend.

It's a matter of He Who is the Power of God (1 Corinthians 1:24).

The Power of God generously and graciously causes persons to be His friends.

The Power of God saves persons from the wrath of God.

God has me proclaiming to you that God Himself establishes His friends (John 15:15) and that Lord Jesus Christ died for His friends (John 15:13).

Jesus Christ died exclusively for His friends.

If God so loved the World he considers them friends because you don't give your life for those you don't care about.

 

[Kermos]

If God so loved the World he considers them friends because you don't give your life for those you don't care about.

With John 3:16, to understand the population associated with the word "world" that Jesus uses, we start with the concluding object of "eternal life" then we move backward through the statement.

In John 3:16, "eternal life" is exclusively for persons "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, "world" includes persons currently "believing" in Jesus as well as includes persons that do not currently yet will in the future "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, the "world" is the population of persons who prior to death are "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, the "world" is not every person everywhere.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Therefore, Jesus Christ lovingly died exclusively for His friends (John 15:13-15).

 

[McFearless]

Another popular Myth in the religious world today, is the Jesus Christ died or gave His Life for everyone in the world without exception, but the problem with that, is there is not one shred of scripture evidence that states that.

The scripture however does say that He died for His Sheep or His Church as per Jn 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Eph 5:25

25Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

His People Isa 53:8

8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. cp Matt 1:21

Now, are all without exception His Sheep ? No

Are all without exception His Church ? No

Are all without exception His People ? No

For surely the seed of the serpent Gen 3:15 cannot be of His Sheep, His Church, or His People.

So why does the religous world proclaim that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception, when they have no scripture proof ? Because it is a Myth.

When Jesus died you or I wasn’t apart of his church, so luckily I he died for his future church and converted people too.
He already payed the ticket for everyone, but you need to believe to pick that ticket up and use it. If I pay for a buffet and you don’t show up, does that mean I didn’t pay? I agree that there is no way to God except trough Jesus, but to claim that his sacrifice couldn’t purify the entire world seems wrong. Salvation is belief based so he died for everyone, but only a few accepted his offer I think.

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 

[quietthinker]

With John 3:16, to understand the population associated with the word "world" that Jesus uses, we start with the concluding object of "eternal life" then we move backward through the statement.

In John 3:16, "eternal life" is exclusively for persons "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, "world" includes persons currently "believing" in Jesus as well as includes persons that do not currently yet will in the future "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, the "world" is the population of persons who prior to death are "believing" in Jesus.

In John 3:16, the "world" is not every person everywhere.

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

Therefore, Jesus Christ lovingly died exclusively for His friends (John 15:13-15).

the word 'world' or the expression 'in Adam' as Paul uses it it Romans 5:14-21 means all humanity. This qualifies as Good News for all people just as the angels sang on Bethlehem's Hills. Luke 2:10

 

[brightfame52]

When Jesus died you or I wasn’t apart of his church, so luckily I he died for his future church and converted people too.
He already payed the ticket for everyone, but you need to believe to pick that ticket up and use it. If I pay for a buffet and you don’t show up, does that mean I didn’t pay? I agree that there is no way to God except trough Jesus, but to claim that his sacrifice couldn’t purify the entire world seems wrong. Salvation is belief based so he died for everyone, but only a few accepted his offer I think.

John 1:29
29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If a person wasnt part of Christs Church when Christ died for His Church, then Christ didnt die for that person, for Christ died for His Church Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

[Kermos]

the word 'world' or the expression 'in Adam' as Paul uses it it Romans 5:14-21 means all humanity. This qualifies as Good News for all people just as the angels sang on Bethlehem's Hills. Luke 2:10

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
​

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" (see John 3:14), so here is the passage:

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)
​

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

@McFearless, since you brought up John 3:16 a few posts ago, here is a ping for you.

Jesus Christ lovingly died exclusively for His friends (John 15:13-15).

 

[quietthinker]

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." (John 3:14-16).
​

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" (see John 3:14), so here is the passage:

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9)
​

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (Numbers 21:8) and the results of the bronze serpent that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

For the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strongs 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16 includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

@McFearless, since you brought up John 3:16 a few posts ago, here is a ping for you.

Jesus Christ lovingly died exclusively for His friends (John 15:13-15).

The choices of people do not qualify for God's choice.

 

[Kermos]

The choices of people do not qualify for God's choice.

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Since God exclusively chooses people unto salvation, then Jesus died only for the people that He has chosen unto salvation.

 

[quietthinker]

The Word of God says there is no level that a person can choose Lord Jesus because He says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) - Jesus, being God, did not provide any exception for choosing toward Jesus. Lord Jesus speaks to all believers in all time because He also said "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word" (John 17:20)! All these words of Jesus are at the same supper! All glory is God's! With man, salvation is impossible (Matthew 19:25-26)! All glory in the salvation of man is God's (John 15:5, Isaiah 42:8, Psalm 3:8)!

Since God exclusively chooses people unto salvation, then Jesus died only for the people that He has chosen unto salvation.

I see your rational as wanting. There can be no security other than that falsely driven by ego if one has the view some are chosen and others not contrary to what Paul tells us half a dozen time in Romans 5.

Do you lie to people when sharing the good news of Salvation if God has not chosen them? How do you even know you are chosen? (I'm arguing from your perspective) How do you know that Jesus will not say to you depart from me, I never knew you? because, many will say, I did this that and the other....look at my watertight theology?

People disqualify themselves in a myriad of ways....that's how it works. It is not that God disqualifies them. Take for instance the story Jesus told of the Pharisee and the Publican in the temple.....that should be sufficient food for reflection.

 

[Kermos]

I see your rational as wanting. There can be no security other than that falsely driven by ego if one has the view some are chosen and others not contrary to what Paul tells us half a dozen time in Romans 5.

Do you lie to people when sharing the good news of Salvation if God has not chosen them? How do you even know you are chosen? (I'm arguing from your perspective) How do you know that Jesus will not say to you depart from me, I never knew you? because, many will say, I did this that and the other....look at my watertight theology?

People disqualify themselves in a myriad of ways....that's how it works. It is not that God disqualifies them. Take for instance the story Jesus told of the Pharisee and the Publican in the temple.....that should be sufficient food for reflection.

The person who says in their heart "I chose Jesus" is the person who sins against God:

• by self-righteousness just like the Pharisee in the parable of tne Pharisee and the Publican (Luke 18:9-14).
• by rejecting the Word of God and not receiving His sayings (John 12:48), such as "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
• by boasting in their own work of choosing Jesus unto salvation thus opposing Paul's writing in Ephesians 2:8-10.
• by being prideful in their proclamation of "I chose Jesus" for it is written "Pride goes before destruction, and an arrogant spirit before a fall" (Proverbs 16:18).
• by being arrogant in their proclamation of "I chose Jesus" thus claiming greatness over the Master Who says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16).
  
• when the person lies to unsaved people if uttering "God loves you" since unsaved people are sinners under the wrath of God (2 Peter 2:9-10).
• by stealing the glory of God since the Word of God says "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation).
• in the person's own words of "I chose Jesus" leading to the person's condemnation (Matthew 12:37) for the person's heartfelt defiance of Jesus' words of "you did not choose Me" (John 15:16).

Fruit of the Spirit is evidence of God's salvation; moreover, the belief that Lord Jesus says to all Hiis disciples in all time "you did not choose Me, but I chose you" (John 15:16) as well as "I chose you out of the world" (John 15:19, includes salvation) is fruit of the Spirit

Since God exclusively chooses people unto salvation, then Jesus died only for the people that He has chosen unto salvation.