The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Kermos]

Just as the loss of humanity through Adam was in the bag so now the salvation of humanity through Jesus is in the bag.

Well, then @quietthinker, in effect, you asserted that Jesus Christ is soooo weak that He fails to save some people from the wrath of God for whom He died to save from the wrath of God.

Somewhere, there is a lady who rejected Jesus Christ, and she died while she rejected Jesus Christ.

The gospel, the Jesus, that you confess failed to save her even though your Jesus died to save her from the wrath of God. The atonement sacrifice of your Jesus Christ was insufficient for her to enter his Joy, so she who died suffers the wrath of God because your he who died is miserably weak. (Galatians 1:6-7)

Truly, the gospel of Jesus Christ includes that He succeeds in saving every single one of the people for whom he died from the wrath of God (John 10:28). Jesus Christ is Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6), and there is none like God (Isaiah 46:9).

Moreover, Lord Jesus Christ died exclusively to save all the people who believe in Jesus whom the father has sent (John 6:29, John 10:27).

 

[brightfame52]

A scripture that testifies to the fact that Christs death was only for some and not all without exception, is found in Isa 53:8

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

It His death was for the sin of Gods People, or His Sheep, He was punished for them !

 

[brightfame52]

Just as the loss of humanity through Adam was in the bag so now the salvation of humanity through Jesus is in the bag.

So did Christ a. Come to save sinners b. Make sinners savable c. Make sinners salvation possible ?

 

[quietthinker]

So did Christ a. Come to save sinners b. Make sinners savable c. Make sinners salvation possible ?

Why are you trying to trap me? God's love is not limited to a few...it over flows for every child of Adam!

 

[brightfame52]

Why are you trying to trap me? God's love is not limited to a few...it over flows for every child of Adam!

You scared.

 

[brightfame52]

Christ didnt die for everyone without exception just as He didnt pray for everyone without exception in His Classic intercessory prayer as He anticipated His Death Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.67

 

[brightfame52]

Jn 17:9 is also a picture of who Christ does make intercession for in heaven, not the whole world without exception, but for His Elect whom He died for Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

I hope you can see the correspondence here. Jn 17:9 is Christ interceding and He specifies who He is doing it for, not all without exception, but them whom the Father has given Him. Those given Him corresponds to the elect in Rom 8:33 ; Now those in Jn 17:9 who were given to Christ, also He died for Jn 17:19

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Which corresponds to the fact He died for His Elect indicated in Rom 8:33 in Vs 34

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

And so the whole Scope of His Intercession was for them He died for, believers and those who shall be believers Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

And so it is these, the given, the elect He maketh inrercession for in Heaven Rom 8:34

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

So Christ died only for them He made or makes Intercession for ! Which isnt all without exception, but His Elect given to Him by the Father !

Heb 7:25 complements

25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The ones the Father gave Him !

 

[brightfame52]

Christ only died for them that are the called !

Heb 9:15

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death[on the cross], for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are [The] called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance

In the original its the called with the definite article, its therefore denoting a special group of people that are the called. The call is to the heirs of the inheritance, the eternal inheritance.

They are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ Rom 8:17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

They are the heirs of salvation Heb 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And this call isn't merely an outward external call, but an inward internal call made effectual by the Spirit of God.

 

[quietthinker]

Christ only died for them that are the called !

Heb 9:15

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death[on the cross], for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are [The] called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance

In the original its the called with the definite article, its therefore denoting a special group of people that are the called. The call is to the heirs of the inheritance, the eternal inheritance.

They are heirs of God, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ Rom 8:17

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

They are the heirs of salvation Heb 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

And this call isn't merely an outward external call, but an inward internal call made effectual by the Spirit of God.

It was the 'faithful' brother who stayed home who was miffed when his reckless brother who had squandered his inheritance came home and had a party put on for him by their Father.
Jesus crafted this story because he knew those who considered themselves 'called' discounted those who they considered not called.

 

[Enoch111]

So for those of you who believe Christ died for all without exception, even for they which shall be lost, and they which shall be saved, then it is whatever you think that made the difference in being saved and lost among men, that becomes your saviour ! If you believe it is your freewill, freewill is your saviour, if you think it was your believing or faith, then that is your saviour and not Christ !

We need to go to Scripture and the actual recorded words of Christ to refute your fallacies: For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17) For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

There are two outstanding truths in these words of Christ:
1. Atonement is UNLIMITED (which contradicts Limited Atonement)
2. Salvation is for THE WHOLE WORLD (which contradicts Unconditional Election)

We are to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and take Him at His Word. So no fancy theology can change what He has said.

 

[brightfame52]

It was the 'faithful' brother who stayed home who was miffed when his reckless brother who had squandered his inheritance came home and had a party put on for him by their Father.
Jesus crafted this story because he knew those who considered themselves 'called' discounted those who they considered not called.

I dont know what you talking about, did you understand the post points ?

 

[brightfame52]

We need to go to Scripture and the actual recorded words of Christ to refute your fallacies: For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17) For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

There are two outstanding truths in these words of Christ:
1. Atonement is UNLIMITED (which contradicts Limited Atonement)
2. Salvation is for THE WHOLE WORLD (which contradicts Unconditional Election)

We are to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and take Him at His Word. So no fancy theology can change what He has said.

Evasion from point. What makes the difference then in saved and lost ?

 

[quietthinker]

I dont know what you talking about, did you understand the post points ?

You are attempting to justify that some are chosen and others not. Isn't that your basic objective?.....it's called eisegesis.

Eisegesis

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out a text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

We need to go to Scripture and the actual recorded words of Christ to refute your fallacies: For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17) For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

There are two outstanding truths in these words of Christ:
1. Atonement is UNLIMITED (which contradicts Limited Atonement)
2. Salvation is for THE WHOLE WORLD (which contradicts Unconditional Election)

We are to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and take Him at His Word. So no fancy theology can change what He has said.

if atonement was unlimited, then everyone would be saved. If salvation was for everyone, again everyone would be saved. Universalism isnt Biblical.

 

[Kermos]

We need to go to Scripture and the actual recorded words of Christ to refute your fallacies: For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. (John 3:17) For the bread of God is He which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. (John 6:33) I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. (John 6:51)

There are two outstanding truths in these words of Christ:
1. Atonement is UNLIMITED (which contradicts Limited Atonement)
2. Salvation is for THE WHOLE WORLD (which contradicts Unconditional Election)

We are to listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and take Him at His Word. So no fancy theology can change what He has said.

@Enoch111, you abandoned context of Lord Jesus' words.

For example, Lord Jesus constrained the meaning of the word "world" in John 3:17. John 3:17's starts out with a "for" conjunction with a "not" added to the conjunction; therefore John 3:17 is inextricably, conjunctively tied to John 3:16.

The first word of John 3:16 is a conjunction that inextricably ties John 3:14-15 to John 3:16, and here are the Lord Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John:

"As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that every believing will in Him have eternal life, for God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that every believing in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life" (John 3:14-16).

Lord Jesus brings in history by way of mentioning "the serpent in the wilderness" John 3:14), so here is the contextually linked passage about history:

Then YHWH said to Moses, "Make a fiery [serpent], and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live." And Moses made a bronze serpent and set it on the standard; and it came about, that if a serpent bit any man, when he looked to the bronze serpent, he lived. (Numbers 21:8-9).

Based on God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14) and the results of the "bronze serpent" that Moses set on the standard (Numbers 21:9), the population of persons that certainly were affected by God's command about "the serpent in the wilderness" in order to live were ONLY each bitten person that looked at "the serpent in the wilderness".

Furthermore, there is a different population of persons which includes persons that DID NOT LOOK AT "the serpent in the wilderness".

Therefore, there are separate populations of persons identified in Jesus' words as recorded by the Apostle John (John 3:14-16) with the first "population of bitten look to live" and there was the second "population of everyone else".

In the next four paragraphs, we see the Word of God speaking to Moses (Numbers 21:8) in relation to the Word of God speaking to Nicodemus (John 3:16).

1. Notice how "everyone who is bitten" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "world" (John 3:16).
2. Notice how "when he" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "that every" (John 3:16, note that the Greek word pas [Strong's 3956] translates accurately as "every" not so much as the unfettered promiscuous connotation of "whosoever" [KJV] or "whoever" [NASB]).
3. Notice how "look" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "believing" (John 3:16).
4. Notice how "live" (Numbers 21:8) relates to "eternal life" (John 3:16).

Jesus sets the relation between differing populations of persons by way of Him including the "the serpent in the wilderness" (John 3:14, Numbers 21:9), so the "population of bitten look to live" directly corresponds with the word "world" as per Jesus' usage (John 3:16).

The Word of God conclusively proves that the context establishes the word "world" as used by Jesus in John 3:16includes ONLY the population of persons that currently believe in Jesus or will in the future believe in Jesus.

A more descriptive discourse is found here in this page link.

 

[Kermos]

You are attempting to justify that some are chosen and others not. Isn't that your basic objective?.....it's called eisegesis.

Eisegesis

Eisegesis (/ˌaɪsɪˈdʒiːsɪs/) is the process of interpreting text in such a way as to introduce one's own presuppositions, agendas or biases. It is commonly referred to as reading into the text.[1] It is often done to "prove" a pre-held point of concern, and to provide confirmation bias corresponding with the pre-held interpretation and any agendas supported by it.

Eisegesis is best understood when contrasted with exegesis. Exegesis is drawing out a text's meaning in accordance with the author's context and discoverable meaning. Eisegesis is when a reader imposes their interpretation of the text. Thus exegesis tends to be objective; and eisegesis, highly subjective.

"Many are called, but few are chosen" (Jesus Christ, Matthew 22:14).

Hmmm, it appears, quietthinker, that you practice eisegesis.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Doctrine of election. Its Biblical, truthful, and a heavy doctrine to consider. Peter talks about it, paul really talked about it, john talked about it. But the real dilemma isnt who is of the elect, but how the elect are chosen.

 

[Enoch111]

f atonement was unlimited, then everyone would be saved.

Did you even read, and understand, and digest, the words of Christ? Or do you really believe you can simply ignore Him?

 

[Enoch111]

@Enoch111, you abandoned context of Lord Jesus' words.

No. I did not abandon context, and the words of Christ are categorical. But if you want context, kindly go back to John chapter 3 and read and study it in depth. God and Christ do not contradict themselves.

 

[Enoch111]

Evasion from point. What makes the difference then in saved and lost ?

You are the one evading the plain declarations of Christ. As for the difference it has already been explained by Him in John 3:18-21.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.