The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
You are amazed by what perhaps others teach. For that is not anything that I say nor is that my view.
Really? You don't believe that you were chosen? Of course, you do. And this is where OSAS rears it's ugly head. If you later renounce your belief in Christ, people who believe as you do will have to conclude you were never saved. But, you sure thought you were saved, so the truth is, you don't know if you are chosen or if you just are deceived.
<<<Really? You don't believe that you were chosen?>>>

You apparently do not even realize what is the straw man you made. For I do believe I am among those chosen by God as I believe that all who believe (genuinely that is) in Him are.

Let me tell you what your straw man said, that God JUST chooses some individuals.

<<<If you later renounce your belief in Christ, people who believe as you do will have to conclude you were never saved.>>>

And this is where when the Christian fails to distinguish faith that comes from himself and faith that comes from God. That faith that comes from God is faith that has power and which does not fail.

The scriptures says of the genuine believer, that he abide in God’s words. In other words, he continues believing to the end of his days. Thus, if one who believes but continue not, and rejects Christ later and remain there, he is manifested to not be among the chosen of God.

<<<But, you sure thought you were saved, so the truth is, you don't know if you are chosen or if you just are deceived.>>>

As a believer, I could only trust what the scriptures says of them who put their faith in God and in Jesus Christ. That those who believe (genuinely that is) have been and are saved and shall be saved. Why, do you not believe that you were saved and is being saved and shall be saved?

Tong
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brightfame52

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Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.176
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
First the answer to the question “is there any one will of the Father that He commanded of Jesus to do that Jesus had not done or will not be able to do?” is NONE. Is that not true? How could truth be a problem?

Now, let’s go to verse 40. It is clear, Jesus said “the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life,”. This speaks of the will of the Father concerning those who sees the son and believes in Him. It’s basically the same as what He told us in v.39.

At this point let me take you back to verse 37. In v.37, Jesus tells us about those the Father had given Him in v.39, saying “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me”. Now what does Jesus meant in saying “will come to Me”? As per context, it is another way of saying “will believe in Him”. It does not mean going to Jesus and seeing Him. So those whom that Father has given to the Son, Jesus in effect is telling us, that they will believe in Him. Now considering v.65 where Jesus said “no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father“, it means that the coming to Jesus or the believing in Jesus is something no one could do, unless it has been granted to him by the Father.

Having said that, we go back to v.40. We can now tell who the “everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him” refers to them whom the Father had given to the Son in v.39.

Now the question is, did the Father give them to the Son to raise up at the last day because they believe, or did they believe in Him because the Father has given them to the Son? Clearly, it is the latter.
I’d like to draw our attention to the CONTEXT clue given in verse 38.

Everyone whom my Father gives me will come to me. I will never turn away anyone who comes to me, 38 because I have come down from heaven to do not my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And it is the will of him who sent me that I should not lose any of all those he has given me, but that I should raise them all to life on the last day. (John 6:37-39, emphasis added)

Jesus is clearly speaking contextually of what is happening while he is “down from heaven.” While on earth God has clearly sent Christ to accomplish a specific part of His redemptive will. Is that will to be a great evangelist, like Peter in Acts 2, and win thousands to faith? Clearly not. God’s will is for Jesus to come “down from heaven” and train a group of pre-selected Israelites (those given to Him to be apostles) to carry the gospel to the rest of the world and establish His Church after He is raised up (John 12:32; Mt. 28:19).

Jesus, while here on earth in the flesh, is speaking to Israel by means of parables, and they are, generally speaking in spirit of stupor, and he's using provoking language, while only drawing to himself (while on earth) a remnant of Israelite messengers (to carry out the purpose for which Israel was elected from the beginning: to bring the light to the rest of the world – Gen. 12:3; Rom. 3:2).
In other words, Jesus’ audience in John 6 is made up of his apostles from Israel and the already calloused Israelites.
The reason his audience walks away is not because God rejected them from before the foundation of the earth, as Calvinism presumes.
God has consistently expressed his desire for the repentance and faith of the Israelite people (Mt. 23:37; Rom. 10:31; Ezk 18:30-31; 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Tim. 2:4, etc). They are walking away because God has sealed them over in their already rebellious condition for a time in order to accomplish His redemptive plan, as was prophesied (Acts 2:23). Israel is not rejecting God because God rejected them!
Is the intent of John 6 to tell us the narrative of Jesus’ provoking Israel in their hardened unbelief while drawing out for himself a remnant of messengers to take the gospel into all the world, drawing all to himself, after he is raised up?

When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me. – John 12:32

Yes, no one can come to Christ unless they are drawn by his truth. As Paul states, “How can they believe in one whom they have not heard?” But one must understand that the Jews of that day were “seeing but not perceiving” because of their being temporarily blinded by God (John 12:39-41), not because of a innate disabled nature due to the Fall.
This was their temporary state until the powerful and enabling truth of the gospel is completed in Christ’s resurrection and He is lifted up that He sends that gospel to be proclaimed in all the earth, thus drawing “all men to himself” (John 12:32).

For this people’s [Israel’s] heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’ “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen! (Acts 28:27-28)


Israel has become calloused otherwise they might turn and be healed, but the Gentiles, who have not become calloused, will listen to the message. The means of drawing all men is the gospel and even Calvinists admit that is sent to be proclaimed to every individual. “Faith comes by hearing” and the only reason someone may not “have ears to hear” is if God has blinded them as He did to Israel at that crucial point in history. So, unless you happen to come across someone who is being blinded by God from the truth of the gospel so as to accomplish the redemption of the world through their rebellion, you can assume that the gospel is more than sufficient to enable their response to it’s appeal.

The gospel truth is the means God has appointed to DRAW all men to himself, so preach it boldly and confidently knowing that it is the power of God unto salvation (Rom. 1:16). For ALL men.

There seems to be nothing in what you said there that refutes what I said in my post that you responded to.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

Eph 5:25

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

This indicates that He died only for His Church, not everyone without exception.176
Yes that verse indicates that He died for the church. But it does not say “only” for His church that His death was for.

Tong
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Renniks

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The scriptures says of the genuine believer, that he abide in God’s words. In other words, he continues believing to the end of his days. Thus, if one who believes but continue not, and rejects Christ later and remain there, he is manifested to not be among the chosen of God.
That's not what it says. It says we have to remain in the vine or we will be burned up.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
The scriptures says of the genuine believer, that he abide in God’s words. In other words, he continues believing to the end of his days. Thus, if one who believes but continue not, and rejects Christ later and remain there, he is manifested to not be among the chosen of God.
That's not what it says. It says we have to remain in the vine or we will be burned up.
It is what it says.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Tong
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Renniks

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Scripture please!
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.
 
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Renniks

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It is what it says.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

Tong
R2376
Yes,"If" !
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Seeing a theme here?
 
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brightfame52

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Yes that verse indicates that He died for the church. But it does not say “only” for His church that His death was for.

Tong
R2368
Truth isn't based on what it does not say, but what it reveals. So Eph 5:25 reveals exactly who Christ loved and gave Himself for.
 

Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
It is what it says.

John 8:31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
Yes,"If" !
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Seeing a theme here?
That’s right, “if”. And that nails the point. There is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding. Jesus said that one is indeed His disciple if His faith in Him or believing in Him is one that is abiding or continuing.

The scriptures you make reference to os a metaphor, the point of the metaphor being of bearing fruit. While it speaks about abiding in Jesus, it is about the matter of bearing fruit and is not the issue of our discussion here.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
Yes that verse indicates that He died for the church. But it does not say “only” for His church that His death was for.
Truth isn't based on what it does not say, but what it reveals. So Eph 5:25 reveals exactly who Christ loved and gave Himself for.
The passage reveals that Christ died for His church and it does not say “only”. So yes, truth isn’t based on what it does not say. Adding something to the passage as adding “only” does not necessarily make what is added, to be truth revealed, does it? In fact, adding to scriptures is not allowed and one who does commits a grave sin.

Tong
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Renniks

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That’s right, “if”. And that nails the point. There is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding. Jesus said that one is indeed His disciple if His faith in Him or believing in Him is one that is abiding or continuing.

The scriptures you make reference to os a metaphor, the point of the metaphor being of bearing fruit. While it speaks about abiding in Jesus, it is about the matter of bearing fruit and is not the issue of our discussion here.

Tong
R2392
Wow, you are good at reading things backward. The "if" is on us. We decide if we are going to abide or if we are going to abandon him and become apostates. Yes, this is about salvation.
 

brightfame52

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The passage reveals that Christ died for His church and it does not say “only”. So yes, truth isn’t based on what it does not say. Adding something to the passage as adding “only” does not necessarily make what is added, to be truth revealed, does it? In fact, adding to scriptures is not allowed and one who does commits a grave sin.

Tong
R2393
Thats specific, He died for His Church To go beyond that is silence and speculation, not faith
 

Grailhunter

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You know when someone is trying to pull a con because they start tap dancing. Bunches of tap dancing going on here to try to change what the Bible says about God's love of the world. No scripture has those words that they wish so much that were there....God loved some of the world...part of the world....the select few....God only loves the chosen....that the will of the father in heaven that some of the little ones will not perish....just not there, they can try to con people all they want but know for sure and certain those words are not there. The offer of salvation is to the whole world....our choice to accept it.

John 1:29
The next day he saw Jesus coming to him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!"

Matthew 18:14
"Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish."

2nd Peter 3:9
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not willing for any to perish, but for all to come to repentance."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

1st John 2:2
“He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 8:32
“He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?”
 
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
That’s right, “if”. And that nails the point. There is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding. Jesus said that one is indeed His disciple if His faith in Him or believing in Him is one that is abiding or continuing.

The scriptures you make reference to os a metaphor, the point of the metaphor being of bearing fruit. While it speaks about abiding in Jesus, it is about the matter of bearing fruit and is not the issue of our discussion here.
Wow, you are good at reading things backward. The "if" is on us. We decide if we are going to abide or if we are going to abandon him and become apostates. Yes, this is about salvation.
While the “if” may well be on those Jews who believed, it is with regards their abiding in His words, which qualifies their believing, whether their believing is one that is abiding or not. For as I pointed out, there is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding.

Tong
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Tong2020

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Tong2020 said:
The passage reveals that Christ died for His church and it does not say “only”. So yes, truth isn’t based on what it does not say. Adding something to the passage as adding “only” does not necessarily make what is added, to be truth revealed, does it? In fact, adding to scriptures is not allowed and one who does commits a grave sin.
Thats specific, He died for His Church To go beyond that is silence and speculation, not faith
Yes. Nobody denies that that verse is specific to the church. But it does not say anything to the effect that the death of Christ had not accomplish other things for other people. To conclude anything other than what it say is going beyond what it says.

Tong
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brightfame52

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Scriptures that indicate that Jesus Christ died and rose again for a specific and definite people !

John 10:11,15

11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

This omits indication that He layed down his life for the goats.178