The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Renniks]

While the “if” may well be on those Jews who believed, it is with regards their abiding in His words, which qualifies their believing, whether their believing is one that is abiding or not. For as I pointed out, there is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding.

Tong
R2408

No, there isn't. Now you are adding other conditions to salvation. Salvation is by faith through grace. If you truly believe, that's it, you are saved. There's not true belief and kinda belief. You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe or stop believing you are not saved.
Yes, if you believe you will produce fruit. But the question here is whether one can be truly saved and fall away into disbelief and the Bible is clear that you can.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
While the “if” may well be on those Jews who believed, it is with regards their abiding in His words, which qualifies their believing, whether their believing is one that is abiding or not. For as I pointed out, there is believing that is abiding and there is believing that is not abiding.

No, there isn't. Now you are adding other conditions to salvation. Salvation is by faith through grace. If you truly believe, that's it, you are saved. There's not true belief and kinda belief. You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe or stop believing you are not saved.
Yes, if you believe you will produce fruit. But the question here is whether one can be truly saved and fall away into disbelief and the Bible is clear that you can.

Yes there is. And that is in no way adding to salvation.

<<<Salvation is by faith through grace.>>>

Perhaps you meant Salvation is by grace through faith.

<<<If you truly believe, that's it, you are saved.>>>

And one who truly believe is one who has faith that comes from God, not faith that comes from man. Faith that is referred to in scriptures through which man is saved, is faith that comes from God. It is not faith that comes from oneself.

<<<There's not true belief and kinda belief.>>>

There is true faith and there is false faith, as there is true love and false love, true hope and false hope, etc..

<<<You either believe or you don't. If you don't believe or stop believing you are not saved.>>>

That’s right. A person either believes or not. But him who does not abide to the end, while he believed, is not a true believer, not a true disciple.

Why? It is because salvation is through faith. But the faith he had is not one that is abiding, not that which is from God. His faith is one that which is from himself.

<<<Yes, if you believe you will produce fruit. But the question here is whether one can be truly saved and fall away into disbelief and the Bible is clear that you can.>>>

Whether one is among the chosen people of God, will be revealed in time. It is not that we get to be saved by doing this and that for God and keeping ourselves in that, and then get to be chosen by God. We are saved by God by doing this and that for us and keeping us from in that, having been chosen by Him to raise up to be His people.

Tong
R2413

 

[Renniks]

And one who truly believe is one who has faith that comes from God, not faith that comes from man. Faith that is referred to in scriptures through which man is saved, is faith that comes from God. It is not faith that comes from oneself.

Now you are just making stuff up.

 

[brightfame52]

He died for a specific and definite People !

Isa 53:6,8

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

The all in view here is all His People, all the Children of God, the Children of Promise. Jn 11:50-52

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Rom 9:8

8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The LORD laid all their sins, not all the sins of everyone in the world, but the sins of all who would believe.

Its the sins of all His Sheep who had gone astray that were laid upon Him, not of the goats whom He will say " I never knew you ". It was for the sins of the Sheep that He paid their sin debt to God. He was the Lamb slain from the foundation for the lambs. Remember He told Peter Jn 21:15

So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

Feed them with the Gospel of Truth.

Not one of these Lambs, these Sheep shall be lost Jn 6:39

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Remember who Jesus said the Father gave Him Jn 10:27-29

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

All the Sheep have their sins Paid for by the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

His Sheep are a specific definite People that Christ died for ! The My People is My Sheep, and it was all of their iniquity that was laid upon Him, and no others.179

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And one who truly believe is one who has faith that comes from God, not faith that comes from man. Faith that is referred to in scriptures through which man is saved, is faith that comes from God. It is not faith that comes from oneself.

Now you are just making stuff up.

Of course not.

Read scriptures and you will find out about the faith that comes from God.

Tong
R2417

 

[Renniks]

Of course not.

Read scriptures and you will find out about the faith that comes from God.

Tong
R2417

I have read them and people are commended for their faith.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Of course not.

Read scriptures and you will find out about the faith that comes from God.

I have read them and people are commended for their faith.

What you have read is perhaps about people who were commended for works they have done by and through faith. But have you read about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as having power, as abiding or that remains?

Tong
R2421

 

[Renniks]

What you have read is perhaps about people who were commended for works they have done by and through faith. But have you read about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as having power, as abiding or that remains?

Tong
R2421

No, they are commended for having faith. The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith, and he threw the ball back in their Court, saying if you have faith as a mustard seed you can move mountains. That's just one example.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
What you have read is perhaps about people who were commended for works they have done by and through faith. But have you read about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as having power, as abiding or that remains?

No, they are commended for having faith. The disciples asked Jesus to increase their faith, and he threw the ball back in their Court, saying if you have faith as a mustard seed you can move mountains. That's just one example.

I don’t see that as an example of people commended for having faith.

The disciples correctly asked Jesus to increase faith. For they were right in their understanding of what faith is, the faith that comes from God. At least, at that point in time, they knew Jesus as Him who can help them regarding faith. Interestingly, Jesus told them, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.“. This speaks of the faith I was telling you to look into in scriptures, as have power. But it seems you do not see that. What must be pondered upon in that passage is Jesus’s answer to their asking of Him to increase their faith. What is the point of Jesus’ answer to them?

So you now have read about the faith, that it has power. How about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as abiding or that remains? The scriptures awaits for you to read that about the faith I am telling you about.

Tong
R2425

 

[brightfame52]

Another verse that sets forth the Limited Atonement, that Christ did not die for all without exception ! 2 Cor 5:21


21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


Now, is Paul speaking to or about everyone in the world without exception here ? I am afraid not, but to believers of the Gospel He preached 1 Cor 15:3-4..The Church of Christ, His Bride. Paul wrote this to them in his second epistle 2 Cor 11:2

2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Rev 14:4


These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Tong2020]

Unless one realize that the death of Christ was not only as a sacrificial offering for the forgiveness of sins, he will continue to have problems with scriptures that speak of other things accomplished by the death of Christ, that he will take and interpret them always to be referring to the remission of sins.

Regarding the forgiveness of sin, Christ Jesus did not died for all men.
Regarding atonement, Christ Jesus died for all men.

Tong
R2428

 

[brightfame52]

Unless one realize that the death of Christ was not only as a sacrificial offering for the forgiveness of sins, he will continue to have problems with scriptures that speak of other things accomplished by the death of Christ, that he will take and interpret them always to be referring to the remission of sins.

Regarding the forgiveness of sin, Christ Jesus did not died for all men.
Regarding atonement, Christ Jesus died for all men.

Tong
R2428

False !

 

[Renniks]

I don’t see that as an example of people commended for having faith.

The disciples correctly asked Jesus to increase faith. For they were right in their understanding of what faith is, the faith that comes from God. At least, at that point in time, they knew Jesus as Him who can help them regarding faith. Interestingly, Jesus told them, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.“. This speaks of the faith I was telling you to look into in scriptures, as have power. But it seems you do not see that. What must be pondered upon in that passage is Jesus’s answer to their asking of Him to increase their faith. What is the point of Jesus’ answer to them?

So you now have read about the faith, that it has power. How about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as abiding or that remains? The scriptures awaits for you to read that about the faith I am telling you about.

Tong
R2425

Asking God to increase our faith is a good thing, but Jesus makes it plain that we have to have faith of our own first.

 

[brightfame52]

The Lord Jesus Christ coming into the world to die for sin was in keeping with a covenant promise to a special covenant People, it was to be a mercy to them.

Deut 7:6-9

6For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.

7The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:

8But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

9Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;

cp Lk 1:68-72

68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,

69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;

70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;

72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;

This is why the Apostle Paul, the servant to the gentiles spake this:

Acts 13:23181

23 Of this man's seed hath God according to his promise raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:

This Israel however is not ethnic jews or National Israel, but the mystical or Spiritual Israel of God comprised of both jews and gentiles of the spiritual seed of Abraham..

And so the promise of salvation has always been to a specific and definite people. Hence Matt 1:21

21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Unless one realize that the death of Christ was not only as a sacrificial offering for the forgiveness of sins, he will continue to have problems with scriptures that speak of other things accomplished by the death of Christ, that he will take and interpret them always to be referring to the remission of sins.

Regarding the forgiveness of sin, Christ Jesus did not died for all men.
Regarding atonement, Christ Jesus died for all men.

False !

That does not refute what I posted.

Tong
R2445

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I don’t see that as an example of people commended for having faith.

The disciples correctly asked Jesus to increase faith. For they were right in their understanding of what faith is, the faith that comes from God. At least, at that point in time, they knew Jesus as Him who can help them regarding faith. Interestingly, Jesus told them, “If you have faith as a mustard seed, you can say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.“. This speaks of the faith I was telling you to look into in scriptures, as have power. But it seems you do not see that. What must be pondered upon in that passage is Jesus’s answer to their asking of Him to increase their faith. What is the point of Jesus’ answer to them?

So you now have read about the faith, that it has power. How about faith, as coming from God, as a gift given by God, as abiding or that remains? The scriptures awaits for you to read that about the faith I am telling you about.

Asking God to increase our faith is a good thing, but Jesus makes it plain that we have to have faith of our own first.

Yes it’s a good thing.

<<<, but Jesus makes it plain that we have to have faith of our own first.>>>

And that’s what I am talking about, the faith that comes from man, from oneself. And that faith does not have the power as that faith that comes from God, which even as it is as tiny as a mustard seed, can uproot a mulberry tree.

Tong
R2446

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:15

The false concept that Christ died for all men without exception, is a distorted doctrine that minimizes the effects and consequences of Christ death, in order to give man credit for the efficaciousness of Christ work, this is a work of the enemy.

Now lets look at another scripture teaching of Paul, in His Gospel of Christ.

The consequences or effects of Adam verses that of Jesus Christ..

Rom 5:15

15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one [Adam] many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Many [ those who Adam was the representative head of ] died or be dead [alienation from God] through or because of one man's offense or trespass [Rom 5:12]

Now, it should be pointed out and made clear, that the effects of Adams actions was received, given and not offered and made available to all those he represented in his offence. It was not offered them, hey since Adam sinned, you wanna accept being made dead, or accept that you died its up to your freewill ? It was none of that, but simply, they received of God the sentence of death, nothing they could do or say about it.

Now the contrast !

Much more, as the consequences and effects of the One Man Christ Jesus, and those He represented, as a effect the Grace of God, and the Gift by Grace [ righteousness] again which is by or through one Man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded to many. That is, they have received, been given the Grace of God and the gift of righteousness, it was not offered them, made available to them, but it was received by them as effectively as death was received by those that Adam represented.

This Grace of God Paul says abounded unto many, that is they [the many] was furnished with abundant grace. not only that, but they were given the gift by grace !

What gift ? vs 16 tells us Justification of life:

but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

and vs 18

even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

So this is the effects and consequences of each Man, the Man Adam, for all whom He represented, His act brought many to be dead, not offered, and likewise, the consequences and effects of the Man Christ Jesus, much more, for those He represented, His act brought many the grace of God and Justification of life.

Now unless, we say that all men without exception have been given Justification of life, which we know is not true, then we are saying that Adams act and consequences are greater than that of Christ which is praising the creature over the Creator , the will of man over the will of God, the effects of Adam greater than the effects of Christ.183

 

[brightfame52]

That does not refute what I posted.

Tong
R2445

Thats all it took to me.

 

[Tong2020]

Thats all it took to me.

And that is because, unless one realize that the death of Christ was not only as a sacrificial offering for the forgiveness of sins, he will continue to have problems with scriptures that speak of other things accomplished by the death of Christ, that he will take and interpret them always to be referring to the remission of sins. Just like 1 John 2:2 which is very clear that Christ’s death served as a propitiation not only for the Christians but for the whole world. But in such a view like yours, one have to explain that away as to making the whole world to mean not the whole world.

Tong
R2453

 

[brightfame52]

And that is because, unless one realize that the death of Christ was not only as a sacrificial offering for the forgiveness of sins, he will continue to have problems with scriptures that speak of other things accomplished by the death of Christ, that he will take and interpret them always to be referring to the remission of sins. Just like 1 John 2:2 which is very clear that Christ’s death served as a propitiation not only for the Christians but for the whole world. But in such a view like yours, one have to explain that away as to making the whole world to mean not the whole world.

Tong
R2453

Post 1117, did u read it and understand it ?