The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

To limit himself to a human body for eternity is a sacrifice few can grasp.

The very nature of love is to be vulnerable; taking a human body subject to the same weakness we have is a risk, a risk unfathomable for us. The risk involved the universe and eternity.

If Jesus did not succeed everything would have imploded.....what love, what risk, what sacrifice!

My question was “to whom did Jesus Christ offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin?”

Tong
R4087

 

[quietthinker]

My question was “to whom did Jesus Christ offer Himself as a sacrifice for sin?”

Tong
R4087

Your question assumes the word ‘sacrifice’ fits a particular paradigm namely, that of appeasing the Deity. Isn’t this correct?

 

[Tong2020]

Your question assumes the word ‘sacrifice’ fits a particular paradigm namely, that of appeasing the Deity. Isn’t this correct?

The word ‘sacrifice’ in my question is with reference with its use in the OT sacrifices pertaining to sin, and in the book of Hebrews.

So now, what is your answer to my simple question? Unless you don’t believe that Jesus Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for sin.

To whom did Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin?

Tong
R4088

 

[quietthinker]

The word ‘sacrifice’ in my question is with reference with its use in the OT sacrifices pertaining to sin, and in the book of Hebrews.

So now, what is your answer to my simple question? Unless you don’t believe that Jesus Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for sin.

To whom did Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin?

Tong
R4088

He offered himself to humanity....free to us, full of risk to himself.

 

[Tong2020]

He offered himself to humanity....free to us, full of risk to him

To humanity? Hmm.

John the baptist said of Jesus “Behold! The Lamb of God!”

What does it mean for Jesus to be the Lamb of God?

Tong
R4089

 

[quietthinker]

To humanity? Hmm.

John the baptist said of Jesus “Behold! The Lamb of God!”

What does it mean for Jesus to be the Lamb of God?

Tong
R4089

Harmless and undefined, without spot or blemish....being the light of the world; in him is no darkness at all.

 

[LTJMP14]

I don't believe in limited atonement, the scripture makes it clear that the call is for "whosoever will."

When you tell someone that Jesus died for their sins, do you screen that person as to whether they are called by God to salvation?

No you don't! You tell everyone that Christ died for their sins. That is the principle of Christ dying for the sins of the whole world.

We are to give the Gospel to everyone, then let God take it from there.

Yes, only God saves. But God, who is rich in grace and mercy, does not save all; God gives many over to reprobation because they reject God and the Cross. Those who God gives over to reprobation are not forgiven of their sins; only the born again are forgiven and will enter heaven.

Therefore, while the atonement is offered to all sinners by God's grace, not all sinners with say 'yes' to God's grace offer. In that regard the atonement is limited to only those who say 'yes' to God's grace offer.

 

[quietthinker]

Yes, only God saves. But God, who is rich in grace and mercy, does not save all; God gives many over to reprobation because they reject God and the Cross. Those who God gives over to reprobation are not forgiven of their sins; only the born again are forgiven and will enter heaven.

Therefore, while the atonement is offered to all sinners by God's grace, not all sinners with say 'yes' to God's grace offer. In that regard the atonement is limited to only those who say 'yes' to God's grace offer.

‘Given over’ means left to their choices. It does not mean God has rejected them.

We (humans) reject people when they don’t dance to our tune and dare we superimpose our deficit onto God?

 

[LTJMP14]

‘Given over’ means left to their choices. It does not mean God has rejected them.

We (humans) reject people when they don’t dance to our tune and dare we superimpose our deficit onto God?

I said the reprobates reject God. But if you insist, God does reject people: "Rejected silver they are called, for the Lord has rejected them.” Jeremiah 6:30; "The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4. Only God knows who will say yes to HIS grace offer and and be saved, and only God knows who will be eternally damned for rejecting HIS grace offer.

 

[quietthinker]

I said the reprobates reject God. But if you insist, God does reject people: "Rejected silver they are called, for the Lord has rejected them.” Jeremiah 6:30; "The Lord has made everything for its purpose, even the wicked for the day of trouble." Proverbs 16:4. Only God knows who will say yes to HIS grace offer and and be saved, and only God knows who will be eternally damned for rejecting HIS grace offer.

How can you possibly know that you are one of the chosen with this view?
Every religious nut deems themselves selected and feels at liberty to be certain as to who isn’t.

The scripture you quoted is true but how one hears them is contingent to ones paradigm.

 

[LTJMP14]

How can you possibly know that you are one of the chosen with this view?
Every religious nut deems themselves selected and feels at liberty to be certain as to who isn’t.

The scripture you quoted is true but how one hears them is contingent to ones paradigm.

You're a self-professing Christian and you still don't have the confident assurance of your regeneration and salvation? I know I am saved because I am regenerated; I stand on one paradigm and one paradigm alone, and it is not of my own doing: it is the infallible word of God. If you have your own paradigm, it appears you've drifted from the one and only absolute truth and into universal relativism or humanism.

 

[Tong2020]

Harmless and undefined, without spot or blemish....being the light of the world; in him is no darkness at all.

It seems to me from your answer there, that Jesus being the Lamb of God had nothing in relation with sacrificial lambs offered in OT as sacrifice for sin.

Being a Christian, what is the meaning and significance of Christ’s death on the cross for for you? What do you say did His death accomplished?

Tong
R4090

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
To whom did Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin?

He offered himself to humanity....free to us, full of risk to himself.

I asked “To whom did Jesus Christ offered Himself as a sacrifice for sin?”

Your answer “He offered himself to humanity.…”

Please explain to us how and why Jesus offered to humanity, Himself as a sacrifice for sin.

What can you say of the following passage in relation to His sacrifice of Himself?

Hebrews 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

The passage, contrary to your position, says that Jesus Christ offered Himself to God.

Tong
R4091

 

[brightfame52]

Christ's coming into the world and dying in time was premised on a specific Eternal Purpose and for a specific people known as the Elect or foreknown of God, 1 Pet 1:1-2

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:NIV

Now Peter writes specifically to them [ chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father] this 1 Pet 1:20

20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now the word foreknowledge in 1 Pet 1:2 and foreordained in Vs 20 are the same greek word in the original.

The Foreknown of Vs 2 were Chosen in Christ the foreordained One of 1 Pet 1:20, stated here Eph 1:4. Now that is what the foreknowledge of Vs 2 is referring to, and not as the false teachers tell us, that it refers to God foreseeing who by their own freewill will accept Christ when He is Offered to them ! That's just untrue ! No they are foreknown because God chose them in His Beloved foreordained Son, who was again, foreordained before the foundation of the world; In fact its the same phraseology usage as used in Eph 1:4 "before the foundation of the world"

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: &

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That is no small coincidence, and He [Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:3] was manifest [via Incarnation] for you Peter writes in 1 Pet 1:20682

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That you being the Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God 1 Pet 1:2. Now if Our Gospel does not make this point clear and precise, as Peter surely does here, then we preach a false Gospel and a False Christ, its as simple as that !

 

[ChristisGod]

I never tell anyone Christ died for their sins, neither did the Apostles. I simply tell people who it is Christ died for, His Sheep, and what His death accomplished for them. You should only tell people Christ died for the sins of His People Matt 1:21

21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Or His Sheep Jn 10:11,15

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Or His Church Eph 5:25-27

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

That way you tell them the Truth !

So you have never led anyone to Christ, that’s not very effective and you thwart the work of the Holly Spirit since you do not ever proclaim the gospel as per 1 Corinthians 15.

hope this helps

 

[ChristisGod]

Christ's coming into the world and dying in time was premised on a specific Eternal Purpose and for a specific people known as the Elect or foreknown of God, 1 Pet 1:1-2

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:NIV

Now Peter writes specifically to them [ chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father] this 1 Pet 1:20

20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. NIV

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Now the word foreknowledge in 1 Pet 1:2 and foreordained in Vs 20 are the same greek word in the original.

The Foreknown of Vs 2 were Chosen in Christ the foreordained One of 1 Pet 1:20, stated here Eph 1:4. Now that is what the foreknowledge of Vs 2 is referring to, and not as the false teachers tell us, that it refers to God foreseeing who by their own freewill will accept Christ when He is Offered to them ! That's just untrue ! No they are foreknown because God chose them in His Beloved foreordained Son, who was again, foreordained before the foundation of the world; In fact its the same phraseology usage as used in Eph 1:4 "before the foundation of the world"

Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: &

1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That is no small coincidence, and He [Christ the Lamb slain from the foundation Rev 13:3] was manifest [via Incarnation] for you Peter writes in 1 Pet 1:20682

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

That you being the Elect according to the Foreknowledge of God 1 Pet 1:2. Now if Our Gospel does not make this point clear and precise, as Peter surely does here, then we preach a false Gospel and a False Christ, its as simple as that !

No message of the gospel once again .

What is the gospel ?

Please do tell ?

What kind of witness can you be for Christ without the gospel message ?

Do you have the book of Acts in your Bible ? Do you have 1 Corinthians 15 in your Bible ?

 

[brightfame52]

So you have never led anyone to Christ, that’s not very effective and you thwart the work of the Holly Spirit since you do not ever proclaim the gospel as per 1 Corinthians 15.

hope this helps

Not here to talk about that, here to discuss, the myth of saying that Christ died for all men without exception and give my reasons for it.

 

[ChristisGod]

Not here to talk about that, here to discuss, the myth of saying that Christ died for all men without exception and give my reasons for it.

It’s irrelevant. Christ dying for sinners is the first part of the gospel and your conveniently left out the rest of the gospel message to go on your tangent.

 

[brightfame52]

It’s irrelevant. Christ dying for sinners is the first part of the gospel and your conveniently left out the rest of the gospel message to go on your tangent.

Christ did die for sinners, but not all sinners without exception. Im showing that in my posting.

 

[quietthinker]

It seems to me from your answer there, that Jesus being the Lamb of God had nothing in relation with sacrificial lambs offered in OT as sacrifice for sin.

Being a Christian, what is the meaning and significance of Christ’s death on the cross for for you? What do you say did His death accomplished?

Tong
R4090

I asked in a previous post Tong, if your angle is that if an angry God needing to be appeased....you avoided the question. It appears however from your first statement here, this is the route you prefer to take... is this not correct?

To the second part and your question; Jesus’ allowing himself to be killed reveals the heart of God ie, he would rather be killed than kill.

This sort of love draws me like no other. It assures me that God will go to any length to have my company. It dispels fear and gives me certainty. It goes far far beyond a cognitive understanding and embraces what the scripture terms ‘knowing’ God.