The Narrow Way
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And yet Paul was striving for the full stature of Christ. The narrow way is a race to attainment. To relegate the forming of the Body to a later date is a grave error...we see this error so much in the present churches. This relegating denies the present available grace that Jesus died to provide us with. Church life IS our witness to the world. The whole truth involves not just studying single cells under the microscope...but the entire creation that God is effecting. To look only at the individual cells of a body is to miss the bigger picture of what the purpose of God is in the first place. Then we will miss the forest for the trees.
Ironically the RC witness, although dead, remains as a picture of the oneness of the true church. But navel gazers will miss that altogether.
Again this seems to uplift Christ by downplaying His ability to create true saints. But it is rather a downgrading of the plan of salvation into a rescue of the flesh from hell...but without the glory that God is looking for in sending His own Son to prepare a bride for Himself.
God is the tree and we are to be fruit from that tree EXACTLY conformed to Him. So we are the witness of who God is through the New Covenant of light. WE are to be the light in the Lord. WE are to be the righteousness of God in Christ. Those who look superficially at a salvation scheme for themselves have missed the wonderful plan of God. It is never wise to do this. Just ask the Pharisees.
But who will pay the cost of this? Jesus did His part...but where is the faith in response?
If possible even the elect will be side-tracked. Our job, is to preach, teach, exhort, but mainly to live out both the private AND corporate realities of what God has established. But we need a consuming faith that takes us away from the worldly reasoning that continues to frustrate the grace of God. Limiting God seems to be a passion for so many. Is God really so limited that He cannot fulfill His own promises> Can He not empower us to fulfill even the most stringent commandment like being perfect as He is? Can we not walk like Jesus and do at least as much as Him...through the empowering of a new life of His presence both in us and around us in the brethren?
But the argument will be that God has not done THAT much so that faith remains dormant. No wonder we are overcome so easily by the influences of this world...the people don't have any idea of what Jesus accomplished through His visitation among us.
An apple falls from an apple tree and the faithless say...it is not a REAL apple...the real apples only come later after it is baked in a pie.
Above, you answered your own question. But I'm not so sure we will be judged on how well we fit the body "corporate". Your statement doesn't fit my reading of a well known parable.
Matthew 25:14-15
[sup]14 [/sup]“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. [sup]15 [/sup]And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.
We will then be judged by what we have done with what we have been given. This is based on the individual not the corporate.
dragonfly9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
You really think that walking in the Spirit is according to a man's own ability> You are truly barking up the wrong tree.
So you say.
But do you have any idea what is meant by 'objective truth'? If you do, you can answer Strat's question in a direct a way.
If you don't know, you should. Then a proper discussion would be possible.
It still doesn't clarity if it is God's objective truth...or what men want.
For instance..are we being built into many different habitations of God..or one holy habitation? Does God have many houses or many rooms within the same house? Are we members one of another or do all just deal directly with God without any real connectedness other than having a common source?
That is why some names are in the Lamb's book of life and some are not,and why some will be told depart from me i never knew you....if essential tuth is not absolute and the same for everyone then preaching the"the" Gospel is pointless because everyone hearing it will pick what portion they like and reject the rest....oh that's right....they already do that.
What is suppose to connect us is His life, Episkopos.
There is only One Body. Therefore, God only has one habitation. As we join ourselves to Him in truth and love then we are joined to others who honor and love Him, as well. True unity is not found in starting with each other but in starting with Him. There are many "bodies" of people that have so-called "unity", but if they are not lined up with the Lord Jesus then they will not be "one" with He and His Father (John 17) and subsequently, each other. You can sense this by the Spirit because you won't discern life (Jesus) in that "body". Where Jesus is not the center and the focus of each individual, that particular "body" will give off a savor of death.
If the Spirit of God is absent, then it is just another religious tower of Babel. Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty and there is life. Conformity exists today in many groups and "bodies", but that is not unity with the Son and the Father. As each individual lines their hearts up with Jesus, then they will recognize/discern others who have done the same and the resulting unity amongst one another is a result of FIRST being joined to the Lord in His purposes and will.
The focus is never even on the Body, but on Jesus Christ (the Head). He must always remain the focus and the Centrality of all things. There are many "groups" that major and focus on themselves and their collective unity and that is also a deception and not according to the Lord's prayer, "That they may be one as WE ARE ONE". What does that mean? Jesus lined up His will with His Father's will. His Father's will became His will. "Not my will but Thine, be done". That is how we are one. Not by becoming one with each other, but by becoming one with Him. By becoming one with Him, we will be one with each other. We labor to enter His rest, not each other's.
So, we are not to be conformed to men or be conformed by men. Many think that if they can conform others to a certain standard (their standard) then they will have achieved something on earth that is of God, but "unless the Lord builds the House, they that labor, labor in vain". The only acceptable "conforming" is to be conformed to the image of Christ by the inward work of the Holy Spirit. As each man yields to the Lord and allows His work to go on in his/her life, they will be a functioning and loving member of the Body and in complete unity with another member (who is also fully looking to and yielded to the Lord).
We are not to be 1-dimensional, focused on the outward and not discerning what God may be doing in individual hearts. We build up individuals and leave it to God to position (fit) them in His Body. As we build up those whom the Lord brings to us then we are building up the Church. No need to conform anyone to our "vision" and the foundation we need to be building on is the foundation of Christ.
1Co 3:10 ... But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph_4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Col 2:19 And not holding the Head, (that is the key) from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
As we hold the Head we will receive nourishment and be healthy (no gangrene) and our sinews and muscles and tendons will remain knit together, and we will continue to grow strong and increase and this life is from the Lord.
Only as each individual holds the Head will they then be in unity and harmony with each member of the Body. It does not happen the other way around.
Axehead
7. Though kings and nations in his view
Are but as motes and dust;
His eye and ear are fixed on you,
Who in his mercy trust.
8. Not one concern of ours is small,
Are but as motes and dust;
His eye and ear are fixed on you,
Who in his mercy trust.
8. Not one concern of ours is small,
Hi Episkopos,
I asked if you know what 'objective truth' is, because it is all the 'essential truth' to which Strat referred. If you're not on board with that, no wonder you find yourself at variance with Christians who have stopped striving to be right according to their own understanding, having settled in their hearts to receive His understanding. There is only one 'narrow way', and that's the one He is walking. Either we are individually yoked with Him, or we are not.
Matthew 11: '... thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come to me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
I asked if you know what 'objective truth' is, because it is all the 'essential truth' to which Strat referred. If you're not on board with that, no wonder you find yourself at variance with Christians who have stopped striving to be right according to their own understanding, having settled in their hearts to receive His understanding. There is only one 'narrow way', and that's the one He is walking. Either we are individually yoked with Him, or we are not.
Matthew 11: '... thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. 26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. 27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him]. 28 Come to me, all that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest to your souls. 30 For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
Moral Relativism Refuted
Have you ever heard these words: ‘What is true for you is not true for me’ -- ‘Don’t impose your values on me’ -- ‘You have no right to tell me what to do’? Sure you have. These words are very popular. Unfortunately, they have been taught in schools. How many teachers have you heard say, “Come on guys, don’t be scared. There is no right or wrong opinions.”
This is from the idea called relativism. Relativism is the philosophy that denies absolutes or what is really true. There are four kinds of relativism: metaphysical, epistemological, moral, and religious. The metaphysical relativism is the claim that there are no absolutes in reality; epistemological is that there are no absolutes in knowledge; morality is the denial of moral absolutes; and religious is the clam that there is no true religion. We are going to deal mostly with moral relativism in this essay. But first, I must refute the propositions ‘what is true for you is not true for me’ and ‘there is no right or wrong opinion.’
The first proposition, what is true for you is not true for me, is self-contradictory since it asserts an absolute, which is, what is true for you is not true for me. In other words, is it absolutely true that what is true for you is not true for me? Again, it asserts an absolute, making it self-contradictory.
The second proposition........, go here
Have you ever heard these words: ‘What is true for you is not true for me’ -- ‘Don’t impose your values on me’ -- ‘You have no right to tell me what to do’? Sure you have. These words are very popular. Unfortunately, they have been taught in schools. How many teachers have you heard say, “Come on guys, don’t be scared. There is no right or wrong opinions.”
This is from the idea called relativism. Relativism is the philosophy that denies absolutes or what is really true. There are four kinds of relativism: metaphysical, epistemological, moral, and religious. The metaphysical relativism is the claim that there are no absolutes in reality; epistemological is that there are no absolutes in knowledge; morality is the denial of moral absolutes; and religious is the clam that there is no true religion. We are going to deal mostly with moral relativism in this essay. But first, I must refute the propositions ‘what is true for you is not true for me’ and ‘there is no right or wrong opinion.’
The first proposition, what is true for you is not true for me, is self-contradictory since it asserts an absolute, which is, what is true for you is not true for me. In other words, is it absolutely true that what is true for you is not true for me? Again, it asserts an absolute, making it self-contradictory.
The second proposition........, go here
I`m in agreement with Axe here - the narrow way is to be IN it and not aiming for it. You are either in or out and if out you are not in Christ. And you can only discern the body once you are part of it because you must be joined to it by being delivered from the sin nature and walking as He walked in sinless perfection. Of course it is better to be seeking to be part of the body, but there is no merit in how the seeking is conducted - whether alone due to circumstances, or in a group. Being part of a group does not make the attaining of it any more likely. It is a personal contract between ourselves and Christ - one to One. Once we are part of the body then Christ can place us into our position and there will be acceptance of our ministry in the body because the others are also joined to Him. There is the danger of not actually being in the right place once we are joined to Christ.
The visable forming of the body is not happening today but there are various groups who are seeking it. Many have been seeking for some time and it is not happening. Something is stopping it and I have an idea what it is because they all have one thing in common which was not an accepted practice amongst those who did actually achieve it in the past.. Those who held this practice in the past fell into dispute and division and the holiness movement ended.
The problem with joining groups who are seeking but not there, is that there is a danger of vunerable members being hurt or at least not having their needs met, as a man who is not in Christ cannot do other than have self on the throne, no matter what his intentions are. The group is not actually led by the Spirit and will often bring condemnation onto Christ. It is common for them to produce a spirit of pride.
The visable forming of the body is not happening today but there are various groups who are seeking it. Many have been seeking for some time and it is not happening. Something is stopping it and I have an idea what it is because they all have one thing in common which was not an accepted practice amongst those who did actually achieve it in the past.. Those who held this practice in the past fell into dispute and division and the holiness movement ended.
The problem with joining groups who are seeking but not there, is that there is a danger of vunerable members being hurt or at least not having their needs met, as a man who is not in Christ cannot do other than have self on the throne, no matter what his intentions are. The group is not actually led by the Spirit and will often bring condemnation onto Christ. It is common for them to produce a spirit of pride.
This is very true. The road to the seeking of making the church reflect the biblical witness is littered with casualties. But the other side of the equation is "because of lawlessness the love of many will wax cold". So the solution is not to give up on the corporate witness. Even Abraham created his own "Ishmael" in order to try speeding up or even accomplishing the promise of God. Yet Isaac did come!!!!
I think it begins with an attitude of faith. Faith believes all things are possible. A faith that leaves out the biblical admonitions and testimony is not faith at all.
So rather than see the corporate witness as failed and the personal relationship with God as healthy...I suggest that the corporate witness fails because there is little or no ACTUAL connection to God in any relationship. In other words the corporate gathering cannot make up for a lack of personal relationship. I think THAT is where we see the failure of the corporate enterprise. You can't deepen something that isn't there.
We need vision...faith and a great patience. The ones who have this will see the goodness of God. Those who wait for it to happen first before that commitment...risk being mere tourists. The oil has to be in the lamps already!!!
We all would want to have what others have striven for....and have it easily. But there is no way that this works in the kingdom. There are no shortcuts around the cross that leads to life.
The day of Pentecost found 120 people who were empty but fully seeking the Lord experience the promise of God. I am quite positive that the kind of seekers that exemplify the "Ananias and Sapphira" shortcut type were NOT among those 120.
It is my experience that those seekers who come to a group looking for something from THEM are detrimental to that group. It is like the old adage..."if you find a perfect group don't join them...because the group won't be perfect anymore!"
In the world you find mostly takers but also a few givers...in the kingdom of God there are only givers.
If the corporate witness is a requirement for salavation then why will we be judged individually ? can i not be saved by being a member of the right group ? when Jesus said if you deny me before men i will deny you before my father....the word you being used to adress the individual not the group.I am told to work out "my" salvation with fear and trembling...the worst part of human nature is that which desires to control and manipulate other people and this is only accomplished in a corporate setting where certain personalities dominate others....this is not a lack of faith,it is truth and in my 52 years i have never seen church discipline practised like the Bible requires it to be or a church that puts forth any effort to create a truely biblical environment,it's the world plus a little religion...all i ever hear is a bunch of tolerance and forgiveness nonsense...i say nonsense because the bible says that those who are evil doers and sow discord among the bretheren are to be kicked out...not tolerated or forgiven when no real repentence is present.
I understand the importance of worshiping together and good relationships among christians but you seem to have elevated it to a salvation essential...finding these things is not easy and one may die before finding them,but if they are a true believer in Jesus and trust him for their salvation they will be saved.....you seem to be saying otherwise.
What do you mean by a salvation issue? Are you thinking a life and death issue as in survival?
The church is not there to save us...Jesus is. But if we wish to progress beyond mumbling and drooling we need the church...in order to move onto maturity. So we are talking about the depth of salvation...not whether a person is saved or not.
Epi
You have a point and indeed the 120 waited together for Pentecost. However, they were meeting together for which proved to be a short period, and were not at the point of sharing their worldly possessions and throwing in their all together. They were waiting to be enabled to do that, they were not doing it first.
If the corporate witness you mean is the one we see after Pentecost, then it cannot be achieved, it will be a weak imitation because it is from men walking in the flesh, and will do no good displaying the witness required and has been done many times by cults, and people see that it is a group of people who are no different to them at heart despite how kind and caring they present themselves to the world. It is only when a group are Spirit led that we see the real thing and a copy of it can be even harmful as we have agreed and even gain an unhelpful reputation due to the exclusiveness that invariably developes because of uncrucified flesh.
Please dont get me wrong, I dont say that believers should be in their little corners and have thought for a long time that believers should aim to live in the same districts in an area but unless they are in the Spirit few will actually do it as worldly demands will take precedent.
I dont say communal living is wrong, but for people who are still in the flesh there are dangers, of a, developing the problems that cults are known for, and b, that they will be closed communities for some who can only be a part of them if the others can provide a safe environment for those with extremely challenging health problems for example and for those who have emotional issues and need a great deal of love and attention. Only those who walk in the Spirit will be capable of extending the hand of fellowship to these.
I agree with the basic premise that we are to be united, and show the world that we love one another and that fit and healthy believers who are devoted more than the average, working together are a better witness but as I said, there is no merit in it, they are not earning more brownie points with God because they are living together because they are still in the flesh and not in obedience in having Christ on the throne in their hearts. That is my meaning. You seem to be saying that they are being more obedient.
If there was a group today walking in the Spirit I would immediately go to them. Otherwise I would be a burden to them or worse have to contend with deep convictions that my healing is in my hands if I have enough faith.
You have a point and indeed the 120 waited together for Pentecost. However, they were meeting together for which proved to be a short period, and were not at the point of sharing their worldly possessions and throwing in their all together. They were waiting to be enabled to do that, they were not doing it first.
If the corporate witness you mean is the one we see after Pentecost, then it cannot be achieved, it will be a weak imitation because it is from men walking in the flesh, and will do no good displaying the witness required and has been done many times by cults, and people see that it is a group of people who are no different to them at heart despite how kind and caring they present themselves to the world. It is only when a group are Spirit led that we see the real thing and a copy of it can be even harmful as we have agreed and even gain an unhelpful reputation due to the exclusiveness that invariably developes because of uncrucified flesh.
Please dont get me wrong, I dont say that believers should be in their little corners and have thought for a long time that believers should aim to live in the same districts in an area but unless they are in the Spirit few will actually do it as worldly demands will take precedent.
I dont say communal living is wrong, but for people who are still in the flesh there are dangers, of a, developing the problems that cults are known for, and b, that they will be closed communities for some who can only be a part of them if the others can provide a safe environment for those with extremely challenging health problems for example and for those who have emotional issues and need a great deal of love and attention. Only those who walk in the Spirit will be capable of extending the hand of fellowship to these.
I agree with the basic premise that we are to be united, and show the world that we love one another and that fit and healthy believers who are devoted more than the average, working together are a better witness but as I said, there is no merit in it, they are not earning more brownie points with God because they are living together because they are still in the flesh and not in obedience in having Christ on the throne in their hearts. That is my meaning. You seem to be saying that they are being more obedient.
If there was a group today walking in the Spirit I would immediately go to them. Otherwise I would be a burden to them or worse have to contend with deep convictions that my healing is in my hands if I have enough faith.
By salvation issue i mean that corporate worship is a requirement for salvation...don't know what you mean by mumbling and drooling but i have progressed out side a group quite well over the past few years...you seem to be socially obsessed,no life outside the group,no hope,no progress and God forbid anyone spend any time in solitude despite the fact that Jesus pulled away from the group many times...again i understand the power of the true church for the believer but God can speak to the individual about their individual lives apart from the group.
I am seeking to make a point about the purpose of the gospel WITHOUT making an "either or" issue out of the private and corporate witness. We are living in a time and in a society that is individuality crazed. The fact that this seems okay reflects on the depth of the understanding of the biblical witness of those who claim to have been truly enlightened by God's Spirit.
Again, I agree with you! As perilous as the road to a full witness of the truth may seem...I feel we have no choice but move forward towards the ends of God...while waiting for Him to fulfill His will in us and in our midst. As we grow a little as an individual it is only natural to desire to see the house of God being built and His witness being made manifest in a dying world.
It is the "how" that is at issue. Did Abraham leave His own country by his own will? Did Paul become an apostle because that was his life's ambition?
God is at work. But it seems that very few are on the proper wavelength in order to hear Him and actually recognize what He is doing. Has God completely forsaken the western churches? Who will intercede for them?
There is a new move of the Spirit coming and it is already on the horizon. Those that wait upon the Lord will surely be strengthened and give the world a final witness of what grace really is and the availability of that grace to the world for those who would believe.
We live in a time of great cynicism...which is so much against the child-like faith that is required to have victory in the Lord. Sure the churches are a mess. But this has no bearing on the reality of the kingdom of God. We need a deep repentance both individually AND corporately if we wish to be a part of what God has planned for those who love Him. He WILL build His church. The question is...who will join with Him and fulfill His will?
The church must advance against an entrenched enemy. Those who take the enemy lightly will certainly become casualties (and make others think twice before contemplating such a reckless undertaking). It is very unwise to be too cocky and think taking the enemy will be a cake walk. The cults fall into this category. They plant a flag on the wrong hill and then claim victory...meanwhile the enemy laughs that men are so easily deceived. But the opposite stance is to be too fearful. The vast majority fall into this category. We can point out that there is barbed wire, minefields, and sharpshooters that stand in the way and have TOO MUCH FEAR to move forward. But true faith and courage properly assesses the risks but then does it anyway. THAT takes courage. The General is urging us forward. He says that victory will be ours. Who will obey?
Will He find faith in the ranks?
Episkopos,no one has said that anything is ok,your point as usual is to elevate yourself as the only one with eyes to see or ears to hear...the only one that God has bestowed any knowledge,wisdom or understanding on.
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