The Narrow Way

[Xian Pugilist]

wow - every time I come back to this board after a break, all I see is more fight between different combinations of people (no offense Strat, I know you are in the middle of it all - didn't mean to overlook your hard work).

All of this disagreement is moot anyway because it is based on a false dichotomy - compassion for people OR adherence to God's law at all cost. Of course, God's Mercy is His Justice and His Justice is His Mercy and the Sum of the Law is Love, so compassion for all people IS the right interpretation of the Law, which was written for people, not to enslave us; but I guess it is more fun to continue murmuring in the desert.......

At least Xtian Pugilist's name matches his purpose.

Perhaps I need a longer break

Carry on....

There is no T. X is CHRIST Pure and Simple. Has been since the founding of the CHurch.

Why would you imply I am beating up on people, when the name represents apologetics defense.

And why would you pat Strat on the back when he has lied to try to make himself look better on the board about people.

You have an odd sense of what the faith is about.

Hard at work, would not require him to lie about me then refuse to apologize for it.

 

[Episkopos]

wow - every time I come back to this board after a break, all I see is more fight between different combinations of people (no offense Strat, I know you are in the middle of it all - didn't mean to overlook your hard work).

All of this disagreement is moot anyway because it is based on a false dichotomy - compassion for people OR adherence to God's law at all cost. Of course, God's Mercy is His Justice and His Justice is His Mercy and the Sum of the Law is Love, so compassion for all people IS the right interpretation of the Law, which was written for people, not to enslave us; but I guess it is more fun to continue murmuring in the desert.......

At least Xtian Pugilist's name matches his purpose.

Perhaps I need a longer break

Carry on....

Man has a knack for exploitation. We think we can profit by everything we see. Many also think that godliness is a means of making money. Did Jesus exploit His power to become rich? Wasn't that one of the temptations of the devil that Jesus resisted?

What is lost in all this exploitation is the purpose of God. It has not dawned on too many that we are saved to God's purpose...not just rescued to live our lives on our democratic understanding of personal freedom. What we need is a return of slavery...a slavery to God in Christ. Now that is sure to go over well with the carnally minded pew warmers!!!! ;)

There is no T. X is CHRIST Pure and Simple. Has been since the founding of the CHurch.

Why would you imply I am beating up on people, when the name represents apologetics defense.

And why would you pat Strat on the back when he has lied to try to make himself look better on the board about people.

You have an odd sense of what the faith is about.

Hard at work, would not require him to lie about me then refuse to apologize for it.

There are many ways to be hard at work!

 

[Xian Pugilist]

Man has a knack for exploitation. We think we can profit by everything we see. Many also think that godliness is a means of making money. Did Jesus exploit His power to become rich? Wasn't that one of the temptations of the devil that Jesus resisted?

What is lost in all this exploitation is the purpose of God. It has not dawned on too many that we are saved to God's purpose...not just rescued to live our lives on our democratic understanding of personal freedom. What we need is a return of slavery...a slavery to God in Christ. Now that is sure to go over well with the carnally minded pew warmers!!!! ;)



There are many ways to be hard at work!

Well, errrr, yeah.

 

[aspen]

For the record, I wasn't referring to the 'Xtian' part of your name......... your consistent overreaction towards others, shows everyone that you are looking to fight.

And as far as me patting Strat on the back.......your mere suggestion has probably wounded Strat more than anything you've said, up til now....ha

 

[Episkopos]

Can anyone answer why it is necessary to forsake all in order to follow Christ and be His disciple?

 

[aspen]

Forsaking all is necessary because our idea of 'all' is pure illusion. I am not saying that creation itself is illusion, but our 'worldly lenses' that we view creation with is all false. The crazy part is, we cannot even see our closest relationships with others without our own distortion - this includes our relationship with God. We need to distrust our own conclusions about everything and trust God's vision regarding our relationships with Him and others - His vision is unconditional love. Nothing else matters.

Christians that try to discount science in place of their understanding of the Bible, are just as lost as everyone else. Knowledge as we understand it is important, but not to be trusted as hard fact. Absolute Truth exists, but we can only view it through a shifting fog. Better to love deeply and experience the rest of life with a soft touch.

 

[dragonfly]

Can anyone answer why it is necessary to forsake all in order to follow Christ and be His disciple?

It goes along the same lines as a person getting no inheritance unless someone has died. As Paul said:

1 Timothy 6:7 For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.

People have to get their heads round the idea that Jesus Himself gave up everything to gain His inheritance Luke 19:12, Luke 20:9, Matt 25:14, and we have to do the same. One of the best short descriptions in scripture, is in Ephesians 1, but there is much much more to apprehend, through reading the OT.

Paul speaking - Ephesians 1:15 - 23 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love to all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and has put all under his feet, and gave him the head over all to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all.

This is the power which enables us to fulfil our Father's will:

Ephesians 3:7 '... according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effectual working of his power.

Through having died in Christ (attended our own funeral, effectively), and being raised to new life by the Holy Spirit, Rom 6:4, we now live disowning our lives, because they belong to Him since He redeemed (bought back) our souls (from sin and death) with His blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.


Ephesians 2:18 - 22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together grows to an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.





Marks out of ten? ;)

 

[Episkopos]

Forsaking all is necessary because our idea of 'all' is pure illusion. I am not saying that creation itself is illusion, but our 'worldly lenses' that we view creation with is all false. The crazy part is, we cannot even see our closest relationships with others without our own distortion - this includes our relationship with God. We need to distrust our own conclusions about everything and trust God's vision regarding our relationships with Him and others - His vision is unconditional love. Nothing else matters.

Christians that try to discount science in place of their understanding of the Bible, are just as lost as everyone else. Knowledge as we understand it is important, but not to be trusted as hard fact. Absolute Truth exists, but we can only view it through a shifting fog. Better to love deeply and experience the rest of life with a soft touch.

good response

 

[Axehead]

dragonfly!!

We cannot serve two Masters. If we are to be wholly His and realize our inheritance (as you mentioned) in Him then we must not have a divided heart. If we try to serve two masters, we will hate one and love the other. We will not be able to fully love either one. And there is really only one that deserves all of our heart. He is the one that gave us all of His.

We will not be able to fulfill the following verse if we have a divided heart.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Thus, we will not be able to fulfill God's will for our lives because we will not be where He is. We will not be hearing Him and even if we do "hear" His voice, our hearts will not be disposed to obeying His voice because we love another "master".

Additionally, we don't know God's will for another. Here we see Jesus telling an individual (not a group) to follow Him.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Axehead

Christianity 101 - Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, mind and strength.

 

[Episkopos]

It goes along the same lines as a person getting no inheritance unless someone has died. As Paul said:

1 Timothy 6:7 For we brought nothing into [this] world, [and it is] certain we can carry nothing out.

People have to get their heads round the idea that Jesus Himself gave up everything to gain His inheritance Luke 19:12, Luke 20:9, Matt 25:14, and we have to do the same. One of the best short descriptions in scripture, is in Ephesians 1, but there is much much more to apprehend, through reading the OT.

Paul speaking - Ephesians 1:15 - 23 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love to all the saints, cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, and what the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenlies, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and has put all under his feet, and gave him the head over all to the church, which is his body, the fulness of him that fills all in all.

This is the power which enables us to fulfil our Father's will:

Ephesians 3:7 '... according to the gift of the grace of God given to me by the effectual working of his power.

Through having died in Christ (attended our own funeral, effectively), and being raised to new life by the Holy Spirit, Rom 6:4, we now live disowning our lives, because they belong to Him since He redeemed (bought back) our souls (from sin and death) with His blood.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore to yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost has made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he has purchased with his own blood.


Ephesians 2:18 - 22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together grows to an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.





Marks out of ten? ;)

5 out of 10!!! :)

Ephesians 2:18 - 22 For through him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone]; In whom all the building fitly framed together grows to an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

You understand the personal part of the gospel. But there is 5 more points available for discerning the Body of Christ which is the building of God on earth.

 

[aspen]

dragonfly!!

We cannot serve two Masters. If we are to be wholly His and realize our inheritance (as you mentioned) in Him then we must not have a divided heart. If we try to serve two masters, we will hate one and love the other. We will not be able to fully love either one. And there is really only one that deserves all of our heart. He is the one that gave us all of His.

We will not be able to fulfill the following verse if we have a divided heart.

John 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

Thus, we will not be able to fulfill God's will for our lives because we will not be where He is. We will not be hearing Him and even if we do "hear" His voice, our hearts will not be disposed to obeying His voice because we love another "master".

Additionally, we don't know God's will for another. Here we see Jesus telling an individual (not a group) to follow Him.

John 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Axehead

Christianity 101 - Love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, soul, mind and strength.

What about Mark 9:40 ?

 

[Axehead]

What about Mark 9:40 ?

What did you have in mind, Aspen?

 

[Axehead]

If we discern Christ and His Life flowing through a person, then surely that is what is most important; not the many things we perceive to be wrong with them. His ways of dealing with us and exposing our flesh are perfect and right for us, and how He deals with us will often not be how He will deal with someone else.

All each of us needs is to hear and see Him for ourselves, to have Him and His Life working and living within us and He will perfect and complete all the work which He has begun in us. When we are living in Him and He in us then He WILL do the work of adjustment, teaching and correcting which is so necessary in our lives; either directly or through using other people and circumstances.

Too often we look upon one another after the flesh and not the spirit, and consequently we do not discern the work of God that is being done in others. We are so fixated on what we think others should be doing.

John_21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
John_21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Psa_127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

 

[Episkopos]

If we discern Christ and His Life flowing through a person, then surely that is what is most important; not the many things we perceive to be wrong with them. His ways of dealing with us and exposing our flesh are perfect and right for us, and how He deals with us will often not be how He will deal with someone else.

All each of us needs is to hear and see Him for ourselves, to have Him and His Life working and living within us and He will perfect and complete all the work which He has begun in us. When we are living in Him and He in us then He WILL do the work of adjustment, teaching and correcting which is so necessary in our lives; either directly or through using other people and circumstances.

Too often we look upon one another after the flesh and not the spirit, and consequently we do not discern the work of God that is being done in others. We are so fixated on what we think others should be doing.

John_21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
John_21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.

Psa_127:1 Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain.

I mainly agree with you except I think you take the individual thing way too far...Does God want us to be each different kinds of beings??? Or are we to be in ONE body having different parts....but the exact same being in Christ? And what about the victory of God's people? Where do we see that?

Could God want one person to be clergy and the other laity??? Or are we all brethren? So here the argument is turned on it's head.... or is the individual still the most important thing? So we see the shades of meaning being misunderstood by both the RC's AND the non-Rc's. They cannot hear each other's perspective so we remain divided and powerless .

We will be judged by how well we fit into the Body. A house divided cannot stand. Divisive brothers are heretics and cancers in the body. It is about love and learning to make the main thing the main thing. All this harping on theological points that bring confusion and division do not reflect a proper understanding of the truth.

So we can take the individual private salvation with it's nirvana like fulfillment too far just like we can make the church into a rigid statue like lifeless form that seeks to enforce the proper unity to the body. Both are in the ditch. Who wants to walk on the path rather than just sling mud from ditch to ditch?

Both sides are rigid and lack grace.

All in the name of "a" truth.

The protestants have reduced the way of God in Christ to what men can do. The RC's have created a monument to the ways of old. Both neither walks in apostolic power and life. Instead these just argue amongst themselves claiming to be "more right" than the other. Talk about men comparing themselves with each other.

 

[neophyte]

Episkopos, you wrote; " Instead these just argue amongst themselves claiming to be "more right" than the other. Talk about men comparing themselves with each other"

"Truth can not contradict Truth '' Jesus instituted a Truthful Church [ Matt. 16; 15-19 ] and that truthful Church only contains truthful Doctrine [ Romans 16:17-18 and 1 Cor. 1:10 ] [ Matt. 18:15-18 ] and all of God's doctrine was only giving to His Apostolic/ Universal Church,[ Luke 10:16 ] so the only Church for the past two-thousand years that has followed Apostolic Teaching/Tradition as been the Catholic/ Apostolic Church along with it's never, ever changing Truthful Doctrine. .

 

[Axehead]

I mainly agree with you except I think you take the individual thing way too far...Does God want us to be each different kinds of beings??? Or are we to be in ONE body having different parts....but the exact same being in Christ? And what about the victory of God's people? Where do we see that?

Could God want one person to be clergy and the other laity??? Or are we all brethren? So here the argument is turned on it's head.... or is the individual still the most important thing? So we see the shades of meaning being misunderstood by both the RC's AND the non-Rc's. They cannot hear each other's perspective so we remain divided and powerless .

We will be judged by how well we fit into the Body. A house divided cannot stand. Divisive brothers are heretics and cancers in the body. It is about love and learning to make the main thing the main thing. All this harping on theological points that bring confusion and division do not reflect a proper understanding of the truth.

So we can take the individual private salvation with it's nirvana like fulfillment too far just like we can make the church into a rigid statue like lifeless form that seeks to enforce the proper unity to the body. Both are in the ditch. Who wants to walk on the path rather than just sling mud from ditch to ditch?

Both sides are rigid and lack grace.

All in the name of "a" truth.

The protestants have reduced the way of God in Christ to what men can do. The RC's have created a monument to the ways of old. Both neither walks in apostolic power and life. Instead these just argue amongst themselves claiming to be "more right" than the other. Talk about men comparing themselves with each other.

I'm sure you will agree Episkopos that through your writings I really don't know how far you take the "Body" and you can't possibly know how far I take the "individual".

Without talking past one another, I and others are speaking of one particular valid subject and I grant that you are, too.

One thing is sure, that everything must start with the individual. It is the individual stones that are sought out for the building of and by the Lord.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Axehead

 

[dragonfly]

We will be judged by how well we fit into the Body.

As I've said before, the body is going to be put together at a later date, and the present situation is one of preparation. 1 Kings 6:7 In an era when tares have been sown along with the good seed, it is a snare to make god out of church life. Church life is what it is. We see from Paul's epistles how confusing it can be, but Paul doesn't truncate his teaching to simplify it for the masses. He teaches the whole truth. Acts 20:27.

A house divided cannot stand. Divisive brothers are heretics and cancers in the body.

But this doesn't really apply to the Church. The Church has no heretics in it - only true brethren. Tares there may be, and goats, but, these are the work of the enemy, not the work of the Lord. And if we are totally honest, we all need refining in the fires of purificaton. Mal 3:3

It is about love and learning to make the main thing the main thing.

So, how would you define 'the main thing' in light of Christ's many teachings? Aren't they all equally cohesive with truth?

All this harping on theological points that bring confusion and division do not reflect a proper understanding of the truth.

I completely agree that some theologians have made a living out of perverting the scriptures and knowingly diverted their meaning, but we can never get away from the reality that God has always been speaking to mankind, from way back in the garden, and His word is true.

Jesus had a saying which meant, 'let this sink deep down into your ears', so He intended 'truth' to be understood, and what's more, He believed it could be understood. (The word 'doctrine' appears nearly fifty times in the NT. In Hebrew, 'doctrine' indicates 'the hearing'.)

This is also the early message of the book of Proverbs - 'get understanding'. 'Understanding' is for everyone, not just church leaders.

The Holy Spirit is to be our teacher, and it's clear from the New Covenant, that God intends everyone to be taught by Himself. That's why it's a tragedy that men who don't have the Holy Spirit and therefore have no understanding, set themselves up to teach falsity using Bible verses to ham up carnal doctrines which don't line up with scripture. It's also why it's important to read scripture with the help of the Holy Spirit, and be prepared to have our own preconceived ideas blown out of the water by the word of God. The Spirit is truth. 1 John 5:6

Don't you think that those who have been confused by false doctrine should be given correct doctrine?

 

[Rex]

Could God want one person to be clergy and the other laity??? Or are we all brethren? So here the argument is turned on it's head.... or is the individual still the most important thing? So we see the shades of meaning being misunderstood by both the RC's AND the non-Rc's. They cannot hear each other's perspective so we remain divided and powerless .

We will be judged by how well we fit into the Body.

Above, you answered your own question. But I'm not so sure we will be judged on how well we fit the body "corporate". Your statement doesn't fit my reading of a well known parable.
Matthew 25:14-15
[sup]14 [/sup]“For the kingdom of heaven is like a man traveling to a far country, who called his own servants and delivered his goods to them. [sup]15 [/sup]And to one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to each according to his own ability; and immediately he went on a journey.

We will then be judged by what we have done with what we have been given. This is based on the individual not the corporate.

dragonfly :) 9.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999

 

[Episkopos]

I'm sure you will agree Episkopos that through your writings I really don't know how far you take the "Body" and you can't possibly know how far I take the "individual".

Without talking past one another, I and others are speaking of one particular valid subject and I grant that you are, too.

One thing is sure, that everything must start with the individual. It is the individual stones that are sought out for the building of and by the Lord.

1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Axehead

I like what XP had to say about maturity. We have to realize that the church is nowhere near the maturity level it is meant to be at. But what is missing? (I mean besides consecration and selfless love).

I think the churches in general have no idea what they are supposed to embody. The focus has become just another facet of the "good life" pursued by seekers after the American dream. You can have your cake and eat it too. But the teaching and direction that this engenders is diametrically opposed and exactly contrary to the sayings of Jesus and the reality of the kingdom of God. The church is not a conquering force in the world...it is a divided and compromised club of people who claim great things for themselves...but with no reality that anyone (other than the brainwashed ones) can discern whether well meaning or not. That is the cred on the street. Trying to distance ourselves from the responsibility (as in...I'm not as bad as them) of this failed witness (washing our hands like Pilate) is just a form of pride that doesn't do anyone any good. Moses interceded with God...Abraham was willing to lose everything.....but what are we doing? When do we disconnect and say "this is too far!"?

God wants to build His church. But He needs living sacrifices among those whom He has called. He needs volunteers...not armchair critics.

In this state of disrepair it is really quite pointless to try correcting the RC institution. It would be the blind trying to lead the blind. So the first priority is to become exactly what God expects us to be...and that takes a whole Body. The Spirit is made manifest to the world through the presence of God among US.

 

[Axehead]

I like what XP had to say about maturity. We have to realize that the church is nowhere near the maturity level it is meant to be at. But what is missing? (I mean besides consecration and selfless love).

I think the churches in general have no idea what they are supposed to embody. The focus has become just another facet of the "good life" pursued by seekers after the American dream. You can have your cake and eat it too. But the teaching and direction that this engenders is diametrically opposed and exactly contrary to the sayings of Jesus and the reality of the kingdom of God. The church is not a conquering force in the world...it is a divided and compromised club of people who claim great things for themselves...but with no reality that anyone (other than the brainwashed ones) can discern whether well meaning or not. That is the cred on the street. Trying to distance ourselves from the responsibility (as in...I'm not as bad as them) of this failed witness (washing our hands like Pilate) is just a form of pride that doesn't do anyone any good. Moses interceded with God...Abraham was willing to lose everything.....but what are we doing? When do we disconnect and say "this is too far!"?

God wants to build His church. But He needs living sacrifices among those whom He has called. He needs volunteers...not armchair critics.

Surely, you are looking at the "visible" church. The visible church trumpets their works to be seen by men and are divided with others. Or, are you also talking about the invisible church, which are all those who faithfully follow the Lamb, not vying for the spotlight or clamoring to be heard, or boasting about the works they do for their Savior?

In this state of disrepair it is really quite pointless to try correcting the RC institution. It would be the blind trying to lead the blind. So the first priority is to become exactly what God expects us to be...and that takes a whole Body. The Spirit is made manifest to the world through the presence of God among US.

The presence of God dwells with the individual believer first and one man who SEES can bring sight to the blind. I would not discourage them. If God does not dwell with the individual believer then He will not be found in the crowd, either.

We should be encouraging and strengthening the individuals on this forum and in our lives to hold fast to Jesus and dwell together with the brethren who are in their lives in unity and love. Whether someone has 1 or many brethren in their immediate circle depending on their circumstances, they must know that they are an integral part of the spiritual, invisible, mystical Body of Christ and their Shepherd has not left them.

John, I may be wrong, but it just appears to me that you are looking at the religious, worldly church that is out to make a name for itself rather than boasting of Christ and are you assuming that all of the Church (Body of Christ) is in the same boat as the visible church. If you know and see the truth, then you have something to offer them. But, I would agree that if one is blind then they cannot lead anyone out of darkness into the light.

Your bro,
Axehead