The Nature of Jesus Christ

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Matthias

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Is there anyone else among the trinitarians on this forum who will assert that they believe in the Gods of Israel?

Gods = more than one God = polytheism, not monotheism.

I’m a monotheist, not a polytheist.
 

Johann

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Yachid is never used in scripture in reference to the God of Israel; echad is. There is only 1 God. Everything else is idols.

You will find many examples in scripture of echad meaning 1.

What we are doing is forcing our viewpoints and pitting ourselves against each other, as long as we believe in Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior...

listen to this and see if we can come to some kind of agreement...



Shalom


1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
J.
 

Matthias

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What we are doing is forcing our viewpoints and pitting ourselves against each other, as long as we believe in Christ Jesus as our Lord and Savior...

listen to this and see if we can come to some kind of agreement...



Shalom


1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
J.

I wouldn’t ask you to compromise on your viewpoint and I won’t compromise on mine.
 

RedFan

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Is there anyone else among the trinitarians on this forum who will assert that they believe in the Gods of Israel?.

I don't think any trinitarian would say that. The issue for us is never multiple gods, it's always multiple persons in a single god.
 
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Matthias

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I don't think any trinitarian would say that.

They shouldn’t, but see the quote from Ritenbaugh. (Post #194.)

The issue for us is never multiple gods, it's always multiple persons in a single god.

Yes. That’s why every trinitarian should object to what Ritenbaugh said.
 

Johann

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Yachid is never used in scripture in reference to the God of Israel; echad is. There is only 1 God. Everything else is idols.

You will find many examples in scripture of echad meaning 1.


What does yachad mean in Hebrew?
Yachad means "together" and comes from echad, one. The most famous pair who were beyachad - as one - was Abraham and Isaac, "And the two of them walked together, vayelchu sh'nehem yachdav" (Genesis 22:8)

Many other examples, but you have stated your position, and I mine, who is your Lord and great God Christ Jesus?
J.
 

Matthias

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Genesis 1:1

Even before leaving the first verse, a serious student of the Bible is confronted with a difficulty - unless he is willing to believe what the Bible consistently shows from the beginning to the end. The fourth word in the Bible is "God," Elohim in Hebrew. But that takes some explaining. Elohim is God - plural. "In the beginning Gods created the heaven and the earth." For an English-speaking person, this is confirmed in Genesis 1:26, where the translators finally used plural pronouns ("Us" and "Our") to conform to the plural noun antecedent, Elohim.

The translators recognized in verse 26 that Elohim - "God" - was speaking to somebody, and He was speaking to someone who was just like Him, which is why the word Us is used. They were forced into using a plural pronoun. "Let Us make man in Our image." In fact, Elohim is used 66 times in a row at the beginning of the Bible before any other Hebrew word is translated into the English "God." That occurs in Genesis 6:5 when finally another word is used for God.

Someone reading this beginning in Hebrew would have to be impressed that the author of this book was trying to get something across to the reader that "Gods" (plural) did everything - not an individual but a least two. Elohim is used in the Old Testament 2,570 times, and every usage is plural - "Gods."

As shown by this plurality, the God Family clearly consists of more than one Being, or more than one Person or Personality.

John W. Ritenbaugh

There goes your 'Elohim conversed with the angels'
J.

Do you agree with Ritenbaugh that the Trinity is “more than one being”?

Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.

Would it be helpful if I documented that the Trinity is one being using trinitarian sources?
 

Johann

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If you believe that elohim is plural in meaning then it’s not unreasonable to ask that you translate it as plural in English. Will you do it?

Elohim-im...is always plural but according to Syntax, if followed by a single verb, makes the plural singular, correct?
J.
 

Johann

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Do you agree with Ritenbaugh that the Trinity is “more than one being”?

Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.

Would it be helpful if I documented that the Trinity is one being using trinitarian sources?

You and I have veered off the topic under discussion, "Did Christ Pre-Exist?"
Would you kindly stay on that topic and not impose your bias upon me?
This can go ugly, fast
J.
 

RedFan

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Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.


The problem for me has always been wrapping my head around what a single "being" means in this context, yet maintain that Father and Son and Holy Spirit are not identical. We can express the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity (three persons in one God) as a set of propositions in this way:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
5. The Holy Spirit is God.
6. The Holy Spirit is not the Father.
7. The Holy Spirit is not the Son.

For simplicity’s sake we need consider only 1 through 4 (for 5 through 7 will stand or fall on the same logical analysis we apply to 1 through 4):

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.

The difficulty in understanding the Trinity has always been that these four propositions are, as a group, logically inconsistent when analyzed from the standpoint of the three basic rules of logical equivalence: self-identity (everything is identical to itself, i.e., x = x); symmetry (if two things are equivalent, they are equivalent in any order, i.e., if x = y, then y = x); and transitivity (if one thing is the same as another and that other is the same as a third, then the first is the same as the third, i.e., if x = y and y = z then x = z). The orthodox doctrine of the Trinity fares ill in this analysis.

To make them logically consistent, we would need to sacrifice one of the four tenets. Thus, Arius sacrificed the third one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
4. The Father is not the Son.
3′. Therefore the Son is not God.

and Sabellius sacrificed the fourth one:

1. There is only one God.
2. The Father is God.
3. The Son is God.
4′. Therefore the Father is the Son.

Both Arius’ argument and Sabellius’ argument are logically consistent because, unlike the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity, they satisfy all three of the aforementioned principles of logical consistency. Arius and Sabellius, although approaching the inconsistency from different perspectives, each preferred rationality to irrationality―even if it meant preferring heresy to orthodoxy.

Now, we Trinitarians have two choices. We can simply throw up our hands and declare that God does not have to play by the rules of logical consistency, thereby forever assigning the Trinity to the status of unfathomable mystery. Or, we can allow for identity and equivalence to be relative to their contexts. Thus, “Robert is good” can be consistent with “Robert is not good” as long as a different sense of “good” holds for each proposition (e.g., he is a good theologian; he is not a good golfer.)

To say that “The Father is not the Son” is likewise context-dependent and predicate-specific. One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood.

How to tease them apart is the ultimate challenge of orthodox Trinitarian theology.
 

Johann

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Do you agree with Ritenbaugh that the Trinity is “more than one being”?

Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.

Would it be helpful if I documented that the Trinity is one being using trinitarian sources?

Three in Person, echad.
J.
 

Matthias

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Elohim-im...is always plural but according to Syntax, if followed by a single verb, makes the plural singular, correct?
J.

Plural in form. Context is the key to whether it is singular or plural in meaning.

A single pagan deity (ex. Dagon) is elohim.

Dagon is god (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

Dagon is not gods (i]elohim[/i], plural in form, plural in meaning.)

The same is true with the God of Israel.

YHWH is God (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

YHWH is not Gods (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

If someone is telling you that the Trinity is elohim and they mean that the Trinity is elohim plural in form, plural in meaning then they are telling you something which trinitarianism denies.
 

Matthias

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Three in Person, echad.
J.

I asked about “being.” Ritenbaugh says more than one being. Trinitarianism says only one being.

I have to step away for a while. I would like to suggest that you consult trinitarian sources on how many beings the Trinity is. Those sources should explain the difference between “being” and “person”.

I’ll post some of them when I get home tonight if you or someone else doesn’t.
 

TLHKAJ

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That aside, Arsenal is a trinitarian theologian / scholar. I quoted him and provided a link to what he wrote in order to further document that trinitarian theology historically rejects the teaching that Jesus is a human person.
Idk why you keep saying this when every trinitarian here (including myself) knows and believes that Jesus who was the Word of God and (as scripture says) was God ....came in the likeness of sinful flesh. The fact that He came in the flesh is essential to salvation.

1 John 4:2-3
[2]Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 John 1:7-8
[7]For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
[8]Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.


We must believe that ...Jesus Christ... came in the flesh. If we believe it was some other Jesus (and not the Christ Jesus) ...or we altogether deny He came in a flesh body ...we miss it and will not receive a full reward.

Furthermore....

John 1:1-3,14
[1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2]The same was in the beginning with God.
[3]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


We believe - as the scriptures declare - that the Word of God was made flesh. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and yet he knew no sin.

Romans 8:3
[3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


He condemned sin in the flesh! Our sins were laid on Him!

Isaiah 53:1-12
[1]Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8]He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10]Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


In these following verses, we see that the Word of God (who, as the scriptures have declared, is Jesus Christ) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Many pass right over this. But look at verse 13. The Word of God is given pronouns (his/him) that denotes personhood. This is further confirmed in verse 14, which is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest.

Hebrews 4:12-15
[12]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[13]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
[14]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
[15]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest, was touched with the feeling of our infirmities (not His own), and He was tempted in every way that we've been tempted. Yet, He had no sin.

We must take the whole scripture. Where it seems to conflict or not say what we want it to say, we need to get with Him on it. (Which to me, it doesn't, because I let it speak for itself.) If we wrest the scriptures, we get into serious trouble. We begin to rationalize with the carnal mind and reason Him away.

2 Peter 3:16-18
[16]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

 
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Johann

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Do you agree with Ritenbaugh that the Trinity is “more than one being”?

Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.

Would it be helpful if I documented that the Trinity is one being using trinitarian sources?

Since I have joined this forum I have never in my life heard terminologies and philosophizing as here..YouTube and the Internet is no help at all and when there is a sudden "powercut" and lights out on the WWW many are going to go 'lights out' as well..two members are using scriptures, one said ' can we please debate WITHOUT using scripture, why must the bible always being used?"

..and we have veered of the topic..
J.
 
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TLHKAJ

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If Jesus was merely (only) a man, He couldn't be the Christ (Messiah). If He was merely a man, then Joseph may as well have biologically fathered him (as in, knowing Mary in a physical sense and Jesus being a product of his sperm uniting with Mary's egg). And yet scripture states that Mary knew no man (was a virgin) when she became with child. If He were merely a man, He would have sin ....for, as the scripture says, all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Romans 3:23
[23]For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;


But we know, according to scripture, Jesus Christ was "full of grace and truth." He didn't fall short of God's glory. He was "the brightness of His glory."

Hebrews 1:2-3
[2]Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
[3]Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;


How is it that a mere man could uphold all things by the word of his power? He was both God and man ....Son of God, and Son of man.

Saul (before he was called Paul) was on his way to Damascus, persecuting Christians, when the light from heaven shined around him. He heard a voice and immediately addressed Him as Lord.

Acts 9:1-5
[1]And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
[2]And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.
[3]And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:
[4]And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
[5]And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

Saul was like most other Jews. Well ...he was a Jew of Jews. He was opposed to the idea that Jesus Christ was the Messiah and thought Jesus was a blasphemer to claim that He was God. Therefore, he set out to persecute followers of Jesus Christ believing he was doing God's service.

But when the light, that Jews knew belonged to God, appeared around him ....he knew Who it was that spoke to him, and addressed Him as "Lord."

 
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Johann

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Do you agree with Ritenbaugh that the Trinity is “more than one being”?

Trinitarianism has historically taught that the Trinity is one being, not more than one being.

Would it be helpful if I documented that the Trinity is one being using trinitarian sources?




When speaking of God's oneness, what we see is a mix of words, both in the Hebrew and the Greek. There does not appear to be a clear pattern of usage: In the Old Testament, "echad" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "bad" is also used which means a numeric oneness. Similarly, in the New Testament, "hen" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "monos" is also used which means a numeric oneness.
These facts delight Trinitarians and send Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike scurrying for the shadows.

While Trinitarians would expect both kinds of words to be used in reference to God, Anti-Trinitarian are left with their mouths hanging open in bewilderment. To make matters even worse, the word
"monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3), but also Jesus is said to be the "monos Master", "monos Lord" and "monos Sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:16; Jude 4).

This proves that Jn 17:3 no more excludes Jesus from being "true God" than 1 Timothy 6:16 and Jude 4 exclude the Father from being Master, Lord and Sovereign.

Anti-Trinitarians who reject the fact that "echad" means a unified one between individuals, should always remember that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the Jews replaced "echad" with "yachid" in Deut 6:4.

Obviously these Jews who knew the Hebrew language 2000 years ago, saw something modern Unitarians do not.

So in the end it is a win-win for Trinitarians! It is most devastating to Jews and Anti-
Trinitarians that Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between individuals.

The same word echad is used to say that God is one and that husband and wife are one. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ and his apostles who could look back to the most important Jewish Bible verse and show them Jesus was there too!

Instead of converting to Christianity, the Jews twisted the word of God and started telling lies about the resurrection of Jesus.
Zechariah prophesied that at the time of the Messiah all will know that God is one: "And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one [echad]." (Zechariah 14:9)

Again the unified word for one is used!
If ever there was a place YACHID would have been used, this would have been it, but no, the unified one was used.
Today Jews live under a veil of darkness unable to come to the truth:
"But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14–16)
J
 
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Wrangler

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One can maintain without contradiction both that “The Father is not the same person as the Son” and “The Father is the same God as the Son” by separating out personhood from Godhood

Even here, the doctrine remains inherently contradictory. Exclusivity applies when one says X is Y and not equal to X is part of Y. Stated mathematically
1=1
1 = 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3
1 <> 1+1+1

So, we can say the Father is God because Scripture explicitly says that over and over again.

But we cannot say Jesus is God AND 3 persons make God AND not contradict ourselves.

Scripture talks about Oneness, which is the way we speak today. Your mother and I are one on this matter. It is figurative language to mean in the same page or of one mind. However, trinitarians falsely take this to be literally the case. Obviously, your parents are 2 people with 2 minds.

In the final analysis, trinitarians must resort to mysticism and jettison logic by invoking dualism; the proposition that contradictory statements are both true.

In your analysis, you understandably and logically changed your reference point so as not to contradict, I.e., not the same person. (Obviously, trinitarians also must parse synonyms - being with person and begotten from created).