The Nature of Jesus Christ

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Johann

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When speaking of God's oneness, what we see is a mix of words, both in the Hebrew and the Greek. There does not appear to be a clear pattern of usage: In the Old Testament, "echad" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "bad" is also used which means a numeric oneness. Similarly, in the New Testament, "hen" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "monos" is also used which means a numeric oneness.
These facts delight Trinitarians and send Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike scurrying for the shadows.

While Trinitarians would expect both kinds of words to be used in reference to God, Anti-Trinitarian are left with their mouths hanging open in bewilderment. To make matters even worse, the word
"monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3), but also Jesus is said to be the "monos Master", "monos Lord" and "monos Sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:16; Jude 4).

This proves that Jn 17:3 no more excludes Jesus from being "true God" than 1 Timothy 6:16 and Jude 4 exclude the Father from being Master, Lord and Sovereign.

Anti-Trinitarians who reject the fact that "echad" means a unified one between individuals, should always remember that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the Jews replaced "echad" with "yachid" in Deut 6:4.

Obviously these Jews who knew the Hebrew language 2000 years ago, saw something modern Unitarians do not.

So in the end it is a win-win for Trinitarians! It is most devastating to Jews and Anti-
Trinitarians that Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between individuals.

The same word echad is used to say that God is one and that husband and wife are one. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ and his apostles who could look back to the most important Jewish Bible verse and show them Jesus was there too!

Instead of converting to Christianity, the Jews twisted the word of God and started telling lies about the resurrection of Jesus.
Zechariah prophesied that at the time of the Messiah all will know that God is one: "And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one [echad]." (Zechariah 14:9)

Again the unified word for one is used!
If ever there was a place YACHID would have been used, this would have been it, but no, the unified one was used.
Today Jews live under a veil of darkness unable to come to the truth:
"But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14–16)
J

Trinity: Oneness in unity not in number: Yachid vs. Echad
 
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Johann

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Wrangler

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You should get a bible.
Once you do, read Paul's verse.
Its clear as a bell unless the person reading the verse can't stand the truth.


1 Timothy 3:16
LOL Nothing there says Jesus is God.

Trinitarians know this and why they have to resort to verses that talk of reflections, forms, and image. When you look into a mirror, it reflects your image but it is still not you. This is as clear as a bell:

For us, there is one God, the Father.’ 1 COR 8:6
 

Johann

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Plural in form. Context is the key to whether it is singular or plural in meaning.

A single pagan deity (ex. Dagon) is elohim.

Dagon is god (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

Dagon is not gods (i]elohim[/i], plural in form, plural in meaning.)

The same is true with the God of Israel.

YHWH is God (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

YHWH is not Gods (elohim, plural in form, singular in meaning.)

If someone is telling you that the Trinity is elohim and they mean that the Trinity is elohim plural in form, plural in meaning then they are telling you something which trinitarianism denies.


Strong's #259: AHLB#1165-C (N)

1165) Dh% (Dh% HhD) ac:
Unite co: Unit ab: Unity: The pictograph h is a picture of a wall. The d is a picture of a door. Combined these mean "wall door". A wall separates the inside from the outside. Only through the door can one enter or exit uniting the inside with the outside.

Who is the door ?
Answer the question.
J.
 
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Johann

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LOL Nothing there says Jesus is God.

Trinitarians know this and why they have to resort to verses that talk of reflections, forms, and image. When you look into a mirror, it reflects your image but it is still not you. This is as clear as a bell:

For us, there is one God, the Father.’ 1 COR 8:6


Yet to us there is one God, the Father (all' hēmin heis theos ho patēr). B omits all' here, but the sense calls for it anyhow in this apodosis, a strong antithesis to the protasis (even if at least, kai eiper).
Of whom (ex hou). As the source (ex) of the universe (ta panta as in Rom_11:36; Col_1:16.) and also our goal is God (eis auton) as in Rom_11:36 where di' autou is added whereas here di' hou (through whom) and di' autou (through him) point to Jesus Christ as the intermediate agent in creation as in Col_1:15-20; Joh_1:3. Here Paul calls Jesus
Lord (Kurios) and not
God (theos), though he does apply that word to him in Rom_9:5; Tit_2:13; Col_2:9; Act_20:28.


Romans 9:5
Of whom (ex hōn). Fourth relative clause and here with ex and the ablative.
Christ (ho Christos). The Messiah.
As concerning the flesh (to kata sarka). Accusative of general reference, “as to the according to the flesh.” Paul limits the descent of Jesus from the Jews to his human side as he did in Rom_1:3.
Who is over all, God blessed for ever (ho on epi pantōn theos eulogētos). A clear statement of the deity of Christ following the remark about his humanity. This is the natural and the obvious way of punctuating the sentence. To make a full stop after sarka (or colon) and start a new sentence for the doxology is very abrupt and awkward. See note on Act_20:28 and note on Tit_2:13 for Paul’s use of theos applied to Jesus Christ.
Robertson


Titus 2:13
Looking for (prosdechomenoi). Present middle participle of prosdechomai, old verb, the one used of Simeon (Luk_2:25) and others (Luk_2:38) who were looking for the Messiah.
The blessed hope and appearing of the glory (tēn makarian elpida kai epiphaneian tēs doxēs). The word epiphaneia (used by the Greeks of the appearance of the gods, from epiphanēs, epiphainō) occurs in 2Ti_1:10 of the Incarnation of Christ, the first Epiphany (like the verb epephanē, Tit_2:11), but here of the second Epiphany of Christ or the second coming as in 1Ti_6:14; 2Ti_4:1, 2Ti_4:8. In 2Th_2:8 both epiphaneia and parousia (the usual word) occur together of the second coming.

Of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ (tou megalou theou kai sōtēros Iēsou Christou). This is the necessary meaning of the one article with theou and sōtēros just as in 2Pe_1:1, 2Pe_1:11. See Robertson, Grammar, p. 786. Westcott and Hort read Christou Iēsou.
Robertson
J.
Christ Jesus not Theos?
J.
 

Johann

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Even here, the doctrine remains inherently contradictory. Exclusivity applies when one says X is Y and not equal to X is part of Y. Stated mathematically
1=1
1 = 1/3 + 1/3 + 1/3
1 <> 1+1+1

So, we can say the Father is God because Scripture explicitly says that over and over again.

But we cannot say Jesus is God AND 3 persons make God AND not contradict ourselves.

Scripture talks about Oneness, which is the way we speak today. Your mother and I are one on this matter. It is figurative language to mean in the same page or of one mind. However, trinitarians falsely take this to be literally the case. Obviously, your parents are 2 people with 2 minds.

In the final analysis, trinitarians must resort to mysticism and jettison logic by invoking dualism; the proposition that contradictory statements are both true.

In your analysis, you understandably and logically changed your reference point so as not to contradict, I.e., not the same person. (Obviously, trinitarians also must parse synonyms - being with person and begotten from created).









Genesis 1:26



"Let US make man in OUR image": Three plural pronouns, (We, Us, Our) used 6 different times in four different passages: Gen 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8. The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that the Father was talking to Jesus.







Genesis 19:24



"Then Yahweh [on earth in human form] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Yahweh [in spirit form in heaven] out of heaven. Genesis 19:24. In this text Abraham is visited by three individuals, one being Yahweh and the other two angels. Here we have God on the earth (Jesus) and God in heaven (father) sending down fire from heaven. This incident when Abraham met with Yahweh God, is what Jesus referred to when he said, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." (John 8:56) The unanimous opinion of the apostolic Fathers was that Jesus visited Abraham in Genesis 18 and 19.







Isaiah 6



Isaiah saw the glory of Yahweh, but John says that Isaiah really saw the glory of Christ. This proves Jesus is Yahweh. Combine this with the fact the Yahweh said, "Who will go for US" is a plural pronoun indicating more than one person in the Godhead.







Isaiah 40-55



Jesus echoes the "I AM" statements in Isaiah chapters 40-55. This spectacular link explores over 20 different passages in Isaiah and John.









Isaiah 45:23-24



I have sworn by Myself, The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance. "They will say of Me, 'Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.' Men will come to Him, And all who were angry at Him shall be put to shame.







Micah 5:2



But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel. His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity.





















Mark 2:5-12



Why does this man speak that way? He is blaspheming; who can forgive sins but God alone?







John 1:1



In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.







John 5:18



For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.







John 8:58



"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews therefore said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?" Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am." Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.







John 10:33



"I and the Father are one." The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. ... Has it not been written in your Law, 'I said, you are gods'?"







John 12:41 + Isaiah 6



A simple reading of the context of John 12 makes it clear that John is saying that Isaiah saw the glory of Jesus Christ himself in Isaiah 6. This proves Jesus is Yahweh.







John 19:7



The Jews answered him, "We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He made Himself out to be the Son of God."

The Jehovah's Witnesses explanation of John 19:7 is so bad, we awarded them the STINCS Trophy.







Romans 14:11



For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, And every tongue shall give praise to God."







2 Corinthians 13:14

Philippians 2:1-2



The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.







Philippians 2:6



"who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:6–8)







Philippians 2:9-11



"Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."







Revelation 22:3



"And there shall no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His bond-servants shall [latreuo] serve Him."

Jesus worshipped in the highest sense of "latreuo"


J.



 
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Johann

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I asked about “being.” Ritenbaugh says more than one being. Trinitarianism says only one being.

I have to step away for a while. I would like to suggest that you consult trinitarian sources on how many beings the Trinity is. Those sources should explain the difference between “being” and “person”.

I’ll post some of them when I get home tonight if you or someone else doesn’t.

The Trinity doctrine didn't start with Christianity but from the rabbis...see if you can rebut this



Thanks
J.
 
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robert derrick

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This would actually make a good new starting point.

Are you able to supply a Biblical meaning of "death" that is true everywhere the word appears?

I mean, I realize that many will say "Death" means the end of life, but that's shallow, and doesn't really answer the question.

Death is cessation of existence, I think is what you will answer, yet that doesn't make sense in a great many places the word appears in the Bible. So therefore the question, what is the Biblical meaning of death?

Much love!
Death of the mortal body is by the spirit departing.

Death of the soul is by the Spirit departing because of sin.

All bodies are made mortal to die as the grass.

All souls are made alive to live through God as the Son.

But the soul that sins, it shall die. The body only dies because it is made mortal flesh, not because of sinning.
 

robert derrick

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*"in Christ’s person the two natures are found in an inseparable union, therefore, wheresoever Christ’s deity is, there also must his humanity needs be"

Jesus was not born with the Adamic nature. As such we can't say that Jesus was born with human nature. He was born with a human nature...but one that was already covered by the Father. Jesus modeled a walk in the flesh (But not according to the flesh) by the eternal Spirit of God so that by putting on Christ we are made able to walk in HIS perfection.

Nature relies on covering. Human nature has a covering of sinful flesh. We have a carnal husk over our inner man...in the heart...that necessitates being circumcised in the heart by going to the cross to have the outer sinful husk broken (crucified).

Not so Jesus. While Jesus had a fleshly covering...there was no power over it. Jesus was free to choose the good and deny evil. Until we are likewise covered by entering into Christ we will be swayed by our outer nature...the outer man...which leads us into sin.
There is no 'Adamic' nor 'Human' nature in the Bible. These are religious and physiologic inventions of men, not truth of God. Scripture calls it science falsely so-called.

The only nature God speaks of is the nature of angels, which is spiritual. The nature of the creation, which is natural and physical and mortal. And the divine nature, which is God's nature of righteousness and true holiness.

The flesh of Jesus was made of the physical seed of Adam, which was in the flesh of Mary, which was used by the Holy Ghost to prepare a body for the Lord.

Jesus in the days of His flesh was all man: Spiritual being and living soul in mortal flesh.

Adam, as will as sinners, became a sinner by nature by sinning, not by birth of His soul not his body.

Many people who worship Jesus Christ as God, only idolize His life as a man, believing that He was made of immortal sinless flesh, unlike other mere mortals. Which is why they reject any possibility of obeying the commandment to live as He did by walking in His steps on earth.

The Word and Son of God did not come into the world and take upon Himself a Superman body. The cross was not built with Kryptonite.
 

Matthias

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You and I have veered off the topic under discussion, "Did Christ Pre-Exist?"
Would you kindly stay on that topic and not impose your bias upon me?
This can go ugly, fast
J.

I’m not imposing anything on anyone. I wouldn’t, even if I could.

This all started with your weird “bombshell” announcement that you’re a trinitarian. I’m sorry I asked about it.

Did Christ Pre-Exist?

Yes. There are two types of preexistence. I’ll refrain from asking if you know what they are since I already know what you believe concerning the issue.
 

Matthias

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When speaking of God's oneness, what we see is a mix of words, both in the Hebrew and the Greek. There does not appear to be a clear pattern of usage: In the Old Testament, "echad" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "bad" is also used which means a numeric oneness. Similarly, in the New Testament, "hen" is used both as a unified one and numeric oneness and "monos" is also used which means a numeric oneness.
These facts delight Trinitarians and send Anti-Trinitarians and Unitarians alike scurrying for the shadows.

While Trinitarians would expect both kinds of words to be used in reference to God, Anti-Trinitarian are left with their mouths hanging open in bewilderment. To make matters even worse, the word
"monos" is not only used of God's oneness (John 5:44; 17:3), but also Jesus is said to be the "monos Master", "monos Lord" and "monos Sovereign" (1 Timothy 6:16; Jude 4).

This proves that Jn 17:3 no more excludes Jesus from being "true God" than 1 Timothy 6:16 and Jude 4 exclude the Father from being Master, Lord and Sovereign.

Anti-Trinitarians who reject the fact that "echad" means a unified one between individuals, should always remember that shortly after the rise of Christianity, the Jews replaced "echad" with "yachid" in Deut 6:4.

Obviously these Jews who knew the Hebrew language 2000 years ago, saw something modern Unitarians do not.

So in the end it is a win-win for Trinitarians! It is most devastating to Jews and Anti-
Trinitarians that Deut 6:4 uses "echad", the word for a unified one between individuals.

The same word echad is used to say that God is one and that husband and wife are one. This laid the ground work for the Trinity to be revealed in Christ and his apostles who could look back to the most important Jewish Bible verse and show them Jesus was there too!

Instead of converting to Christianity, the Jews twisted the word of God and started telling lies about the resurrection of Jesus.
Zechariah prophesied that at the time of the Messiah all will know that God is one: "And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one [echad], and His name the only one [echad]." (Zechariah 14:9)

Again the unified word for one is used!
If ever there was a place YACHID would have been used, this would have been it, but no, the unified one was used.
Today Jews live under a veil of darkness unable to come to the truth:
"But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." (2 Corinthians 3:14–16)
J

Off topic.
 

Matthias

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Since I have joined this forum I have never in my life heard terminologies and philosophizing as here..YouTube and the Internet is no help at all and when there is a sudden "powercut" and lights out on the WWW many are going to go 'lights out' as well..two members are using scriptures, one said ' can we please debate WITHOUT using scripture, why must the bible always being used?"

..and we have veered of the topic..
J.

Off topic.
 

robert derrick

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I’m not imposing anything on anyone. I wouldn’t, even if I could.

This all started with your weird “bombshell” announcement that you’re a trinitarian. I’m sorry I asked about it.

Did Christ Pre-Exist?

Yes. There are two types of preexistence. I’ll refrain from asking if you know what they are since I already know what you believe concerning the issue.
Are you speaking of the eternal Word and then as Melchisedec?
 

Matthias

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Strong's #259: AHLB#1165-C (N)

1165) Dh% (Dh% HhD) ac:
Unite co: Unit ab: Unity: The pictograph h is a picture of a wall. The d is a picture of a door. Combined these mean "wall door". A wall separates the inside from the outside. Only through the door can one enter or exit uniting the inside with the outside.

Who is the door ?
Answer the question.
J.

Off topic.
 

Matthias

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What does yachad mean in Hebrew?
Yachad means "together" and comes from echad, one. The most famous pair who were beyachad - as one - was Abraham and Isaac, "And the two of them walked together, vayelchu sh'nehem yachdav" (Genesis 22:8)

Many other examples, but you have stated your position, and I mine, who is your Lord and great God Christ Jesus?
J.

Off topic.
 

Matthias

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Idk why you keep saying this when every trinitarian here (including myself) knows and believes that Jesus who was the Word of God and (as scripture says) was God ....came in the likeness of sinful flesh. The fact that He came in the flesh is essential to salvation.

1 John 4:2-3
[2]Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
[3]And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


2 John 1:7-8
[7]For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
[8]Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.


We must believe that ...Jesus Christ... came in the flesh. If we believe it was some other Jesus (and not the Christ Jesus) ...or we altogether deny He came in a flesh body ...we miss it and will not receive a full reward.

Furthermore....

John 1:1-3,14
[1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2]The same was in the beginning with God.
[3]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[14]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


We believe - as the scriptures declare - that the Word of God was made flesh. He came in the likeness of sinful flesh, and yet he knew no sin.

Romans 8:3
[3]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.


He condemned sin in the flesh! Our sins were laid on Him!

Isaiah 53:1-12
[1]Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
[2]For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
[3]He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
[4]Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
[5]But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
[6]All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
[7]He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
[8]He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
[9]And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
[10]Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
[11]He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
[12]Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.


In these following verses, we see that the Word of God (who, as the scriptures have declared, is Jesus Christ) is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Many pass right over this. But look at verse 13. The Word of God is given pronouns (his/him) that denotes personhood. This is further confirmed in verse 14, which is clearly speaking of Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest.

Hebrews 4:12-15
[12]For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
[13]Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
[14]Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
[15]For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.


Jesus Christ, our Great High Priest, was touched with the feeling of our infirmities (not His own), and He was tempted in every way that we've been tempted. Yet, He had no sin.

We must take the whole scripture. Where it seems to conflict or not say what we want it to say, we need to get with Him on it. (Which to me, it doesn't, because I let it speak for itself.) If we wrest the scriptures, we get into serious trouble. We begin to rationalize with the carnal mind and reason Him away.

2 Peter 3:16-18
[16]As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
[17]Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
[18]But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Why do you think the trinitarians sources I quoted say it?
 

face2face

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Christ Jesus was fully Man and fully God
J.

This is the claim being tested and so far no evidence has been provided - special pleading yes but evidence please? How do you from Scripture explain the Hypostatic union?

At the Council of Chalcedon in a.d. 451 the church declared the doctrine of the hypostatic union. The doctrine is an attempt to describe the miraculous bringing together of humanity and divinity in the same person, Jesus Christ, such that he is both fully divine and fully human. "Pocket Dictionary of Theological Terms"

Anyone??