The New Perspective on Paul

[Helen]

My Goodness Sister, you and I must have spent much time reading and studying much of the same things. Refreshing!

God Bless You and Yours Greatly,
Taken

I have noticed as I have read your posts today...I guess some can "see it" and some not. It took me 20+ years to 'get there' but I got there..and the last 30 years once I could see the fullness....have been wonderful.
I'm sure some of the things I have posted on this Site you may not agree with.. but, on these things of your I read today..I was very happy to see...it can get as bit lonely as you know.
God has always had a Plan...and He Wins. :)

 

[Taken]

I have noticed as I have read your posts today...I guess some can "see it" and some not. It took me 20+ years to 'get there' but I got there..and the last 30 years once I could see the fullness....have been wonderful.
I'm sure some of the things I have posted on this Site you may not agree with.. but, on these things of your I read today..I was very happy to see...it can get as bit lonely as you know.
God has always had a Plan...and He Wins. :)

I learned a long time ago, trust to believe everything in Scripture is True, and a whole lot of it would not make sense to me, but to not worry about it. Thereafter, I read and read and study and study and ask and ask for God to Show me what "such and such" means.
I read some stats from different groups conducting surveys on people professing to be Christians; Most all claimed to Own a Bible, but the stats ranged from 50+ to 90 %
Admitting they never READ the Bible, and this also included Pastors!
Alarming IMO.
Anyway, I am sure there will be times we don't completely agree, no big deal to me.
These type of Sites, give me opportunity to hear what others are claiming, and go and search if I am not already familiar. It simply advantages me, as I see it, sparking my interest.
And do agree, lonely at times, but very refreshing when coming across one whom you can tell spends a great of time "really" in the Word.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Helen]

I learned a long time ago, trust to believe everything in Scripture is True, and a whole lot of it would not make sense to me, but to not worry about it. Thereafter, I read and read and study and study and ask and ask for God to Show me what "such and such" means.
I read some stats from different groups conducting surveys on people professing to be Christians; Most all claimed to Own a Bible, but the stats ranged from 50+ to 90 %
Admitting they never READ the Bible, and this also included Pastors!
Alarming IMO.
Anyway, I am sure there will be times we don't completely agree, no big deal to me.
These type of Sites, give me opportunity to hear what others are claiming, and go and search if I am not already familiar. It simply advantages me, as I see it, sparking my interest.
And do agree, lonely at times, but very refreshing when coming across one whom you can tell spends a great of time "really" in the Word.

God Bless,
Taken

Hahaha!! When you quoted me I saw my mistake.
I became a believer in 1964..but taught the law to stay "saved."
20 years I struggled and cried before God because I was never as perfect as He required us to be.
Then He showed me the depth of the work of the cross and complete victory of Jesus...the ONLY perfect one...etc etc :)
I said in my post.." these last 50 years..." Well, I am old...but not quite that old!! Haha! Correction ...these last 30 years...seeing the Fathers heart and understanding the truth Paul lays out so well for us. :cool:

Many blessing ...
...." the old lady".

 

[Taken]

Hahaha!! When you quoted me I saw my mistake.
I became a believer in 1964..but taught the law to stay "saved."

Ah....
That is a concept steeped in Hebrew ~ Jewish Law, Culture and Tradition.

It lands us in a dilemma.
Because it lands us in meshing Salvation and Works being hand in hand.

Salvation is based on Faith....not Works.

Faith (as is Salvation) a Gift from God.

We are but corrupt, flesh, and can do nothing of ourselves, to become Acceptable to God.

We, as the created "very good", and "fallen from "very good" to being born "corrupt"
have only ONE thing, we can do, for the Lord to even hear us and have consideration our own words.

Call on His Name, to tell Him, we believe via the thoughts of our Heart, in Him. Period.

And our First, and reasonable Service TO HIM; is to Give / Present our (holy) bodies as a Living Sacrifice TO HIM.
Rom 12:1

Yikes....how did our body's become "holy" ?

That's the POINT. When we call on the Lord, His Name, and Confess our HEART-felt believe in Him....

EVERYTHING about us that WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE to Him....BECOMES ACCEPTABLE to Him.....and KEPT ACCEPTABLE to Him...

BY HIS POWER!!

20 years I struggled and cried before God because I was never as perfect as He required us to be.

I get that. And I would presume, things you were hearing from MEN, were casting DOUBT, that reflected in your personal feeling.

Then He showed me the depth of the work of the cross and complete victory of Jesus...the ONLY perfect one...etc etc :)

Ah, ha....sounds like, you started listening to WHAT APPLIES to you, rather than, what DOES NOT APPLY to you.

I said in my post.." these last 50 years..." Well, I am old...but not quite that old!! Haha! Correction ...these last 30 years...seeing the Fathers heart and understanding the truth Paul lays out so well for us. :cool:

Eh, I got your point for time-frame. :0

Many blessing ...

Thank you.

...." the old lady".

My mom, (in her 70's ) was picking up and driving the "old" ladies to Dr appts., grocery shopping, to Church. She completed and received a Degree in Theology...snow skied with friends...went horse-back riding with me.

Old? Eh. Mature!!! Something that fails to ever apply to some we call "aged / elderly".

Ah.....to be 16 and know Everthing...LOL LOL

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Naomi25]

I know. You need someone to help you out here. Same old story.

Stranger

What is your problem with me? I'm quite sick of your attitude. I spent a good six posts just trying to prove to you I wasn't a troll, though goodness knows why the onus was on me. Then I thought we had some good conversation, but now I'm getting this sort of thing...how "lucky" I am that you're stooping to teach me. You can either say outright what your issue is with me, or please just stop responding to my questions. I am not being disingenuous about my questions, and I don't think I'll spend any more time worrying what you believe anymore.

Hi Naomi, well you explained it in a way I understood- if that is what the ' new ' prospective is, then I do not agree with it. I notice that this was original ' new ' in the 60's - an interesting era , with much change going on within society and within the Church no doubt- do you think that may have had a connection to endeavouring to challenge what people ' did ' and perhaps a way of keeping Christians ' in line ' ......... Just a thought !!
Butterfly

I think, perhaps there is more to the 'New' perspective that I don't fully grasp. I think it has something to do with what the Israelites old covenant status was. That it had more to do with faith than works than we assume. I didn't really follow it, and I'm not sure I agree with what I do 'get'! It's the fact that I don't grasp it all that frustrates me...I like to know what I'm agreeing or disagreeing to, and this feels like it could be important to agree or disagree about!

As for the the 60's...well, I don't know! There's always been a tension, I think, in the Church to find that line between faith and works. There are clear "do" and "don'ts" in the bible, but also crystal clear passages on "faith alone". There is always those who want diminished responsibility in their life and walk...and then their are those who try and do the work of the Spirit themselves. I think bad exegesis will lead to what we see in this "new" perspective, where God's promise and strength aren't enough to keep us in salvation. But I suppose my worry is that the snap back against this 'new' perspective is that some will not take seriously the fact that we must take the Spirit's hand and walk in our sanctification. Our works must come out of our salvation...not to earn it or keep it, but to rejoice in it. Surely that must be what Paul talks of when he speaks of the fruit of the Spirit..?

 

[Butterfly]

I h

What is your problem with me? I'm quite sick of your attitude. I spent a good six posts just trying to prove to you I wasn't a troll, though goodness knows why the onus was on me. Then I thought we had some good conversation, but now I'm getting this sort of thing...how "lucky" I am that you're stooping to teach me. You can either say outright what your issue is with me, or please just stop responding to my questions. I am not being disingenuous about my questions, and I don't think I'll spend any more time worrying what you believe anymore.



I think, perhaps there is more to the 'New' perspective that I don't fully grasp. I think it has something to do with what the Israelites old covenant status was. That it had more to do with faith than works than we assume. I didn't really follow it, and I'm not sure I agree with what I do 'get'! It's the fact that I don't grasp it all that frustrates me...I like to know what I'm agreeing or disagreeing to, and this feels like it could be important to agree or disagree about!

As for the the 60's...well, I don't know! There's always been a tension, I think, in the Church to find that line between faith and works. There are clear "do" and "don'ts" in the bible, but also crystal clear passages on "faith alone". There is always those who want diminished responsibility in their life and walk...and then their are those who try and do the work of the Spirit themselves. I think bad exegesis will lead to what we see in this "new" perspective, where God's promise and strength aren't enough to keep us in salvation. But I suppose my worry is that the snap back against this 'new' perspective is that some will not take seriously the fact that we must take the Spirit's hand and walk in our sanctification. Our works must come out of our salvation...not to earn it or keep it, but to rejoice in it. Surely that must be what Paul talks of when he speaks of the fruit of the Spirit..?

I think what we do is greatly connected to who we are in Christ. How can we truly change on the inside and it not have an impact externally.
I have often felt a frustration within when I cannot understand certain things - however, of late, I tend to accept that some things go over my head , especially some of Pauls theology. I tried to do an open university course on it all, never got beyond the first session.
Sadly there will always be those who do not grasp being led by the Holy Spirit , that's why we need to pray for eyes and ears to be opened - after all we are often creatures of habit and in many of us there lays a belief that we have to earn things. Old nature verses new I guess.
Butterfly

 

[Helen]

Ah....
That is a concept steeped in Hebrew ~ Jewish Law, Culture and Tradition.

It lands us in a dilemma.
Because it lands us in meshing Salvation and Works being hand in hand.

Salvation is based on Faith....not Works.

Faith (as is Salvation) a Gift from God.

We are but corrupt, flesh, and can do nothing of ourselves, to become Acceptable to God.

We, as the created "very good", and "fallen from "very good" to being born "corrupt"
have only ONE thing, we can do, for the Lord to even hear us and have consideration our own words.

Call on His Name, to tell Him, we believe via the thoughts of our Heart, in Him. Period.

And our First, and reasonable Service TO HIM; is to Give / Present our (holy) bodies as a Living Sacrifice TO HIM.
Rom 12:1

Yikes....how did our body's become "holy" ?

That's the POINT. When we call on the Lord, His Name, and Confess our HEART-felt believe in Him....

EVERYTHING about us that WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE to Him....BECOMES ACCEPTABLE to Him.....and KEPT ACCEPTABLE to Him...

BY HIS POWER!!



I get that. And I would presume, things you were hearing from MEN, were casting DOUBT, that reflected in your personal feeling.



Ah, ha....sounds like, you started listening to WHAT APPLIES to you, rather than, what DOES NOT APPLY to you.



Eh, I got your point for time-frame. :0



Thank you.



My mom, (in her 70's ) was picking up and driving the "old" ladies to Dr appts., grocery shopping, to Church. She completed and received a Degree in Theology...snow skied with friends...went horse-back riding with me.

Old? Eh. Mature!!! Something that fails to ever apply to some we call "aged / elderly".

Ah.....to be 16 and know Everthing...LOL LOL

God Bless,
Taken

Amen thank you for that.
I couldn't get on here yesterday..not more than a few moments...I owed bbyr009 a response so sent him a quick one and then off again...this is the first time I can actually take time to catch up on all I have missed in two days...
It looks like you have been busy on here :)

If your mum is in her 70's then I could be your mother.
I think I could be a mother to a lot of people over here...76 in a month.
But a young 76, I still have my own teeth.

Have fun....H

 

[Taken]

Amen thank you for that.
I couldn't get on here yesterday..not more than a few moments...I owed bbyr009 a response so sent him a quick one and then off again...this is the first time I can actually take time to catch up on all I have missed in two days...
It looks like you have been busy on here :)

If your mum is in her 70's then I could be your mother.
I think I could be a mother to a lot of people over here...76 in a month.
But a young 76, I still have my own teeth.

Have fun....H

I am in the boonies, only get use of my phone to participate in this online forum....and even that cuts out on receiption repeatedly.
Phone typing is a blast.....eh NOT! Lol

Hope you have a very joyous B' day...
And LOL...congrats, great having our own choppers! Yum, Yum, a carmel apple!!!

Many Blessings,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

Amen thank you for that.
I couldn't get on here yesterday..not more than a few moments...I owed bbyr009 a response so sent him a quick one and then off again...this is the first time I can actually take time to catch up on all I have missed in two days...
It looks like you have been busy on here :)

If your mum is in her 70's then I could be your mother.
I think I could be a mother to a lot of people over here...76 in a month.
But a young 76, I still have my own teeth.

Have fun....H

My wife would appreciate that! She was on medically prescribed steroids for over 20 years due chronic asthma. About 10 years ago, her teeth breaking off too easily because of the steroids all had to come out. To make a long story shorter, we bought her new set of teeth. Now at a young 67 [versus my 74], they are all hers, but she did not grow them. Give God the glory!

 

[Taken]

My wife would appreciate that! She was on medically prescribed steroids for over 20 years due chronic asthma. About 10 years ago, her teeth breaking off too easily because of the steroids all had to come out. To make a long story shorter, we bought her new set of teeth. Now at a young 67 [versus my 74], they are all hers, but she did not grow them. Give God the glory!

Always seems to be the case with big Pharma, relief from this ailment, destroy something else. God's plan was different, but then who has garden anymore? High rises, people crammed together, molded society, and most everyone seems to have some kind of ailment.
Hope you and your wife are doing well.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

Always seems to be the case with big Pharma, relief from this ailment, destroy something else. God's plan was different, but then who has garden anymore? High rises, people crammed together, molded society, and most everyone seems to have some kind of ailment.
Hope you and your wife are doing well.

God Bless,
Taken

Thanks for expressed concerns.
When I was young I was very naïve believing so much that we were taught in schools. I am certain most of the teachers also believed and so went the indoctrination. Now our society is out of control. No one but God could fix it and I don't believe that He will unless those who call themselves believers get together on this:

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." II Chron 7:14
For real believers not impossible for God is always paying attention. Likely to happen? No, because too many warm the pews, but do little or nothing else with regard to God.

Oh, I am admittedly still quite naïve, but much of it is in the details of the ways of men. I learned too much junk when I was young, but now, my diet is better [not talking of fleshly diet, but of the eating and drinking of the flesh and blood of Jesus]...

I am not there yet, but neither is God finished working on me.

Give God the glory!

 

[Taken]

Thanks for expressed concerns.

:)

When I was young I was very naïve believing so much that we were taught in schools.

Agree. In a sense, children were children, learning bit by bit, as they were growing to receive information they could process.

I am certain most of the teachers also believed and so went the indoctrination. Now our society is out of control.

Indoctrination!! To the max! Children skipping the oh so necessary "home" foundation building. Being instead exposed to lying, cheating, sex, drugs, greed, adult issues, demands, entitled, crime, killing....
Bombarded, in Schools, Homes, Tv, kids raising kids and the umpteen Videos that pepurtuate all of those things are child's play games.
Unbelievable!

No one but God could fix it and I don't believe that He will unless those who call themselves believers get together on this:

True ONLY God shall remedy.
But I think we are past the land healing (until He returns) and the healing is in "individuals" out of the Nations.
Ie a time of sorrows.

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." II Chron 7:14

Would you have EVER thought, growing up in America, to be a witness to, in such a short time-span;

TO openly hear so much ANTI-Christ being publically spouted?
And God Forbid; Accepted AND Encouraged? !!!

For real believers not impossible for God is always paying attention. Likely to happen? No, because too many warm the pews, but do little or nothing else with regard to God.

Things things have to be dealt with...
Land, the People, Fallen spirits.
We already know to expect the judgement of Wrath upon the Land, effect upon the remaining people and battle of fallen spirits....everything being effected by the Power of the Word of God.

Oh, I am admittedly still quite naïve, but much of it is in the details of the ways of men. I learned too much junk when I was young, but now, my diet is better [not talking of fleshly diet, but of the eating and drinking of the flesh and blood of Jesus]...

The cool things is; Inasmuch as we have the power to remember, so too we have the power to forget.

Just saying; while things may pop into our minds, we have the power in our hearts, to subdue those thoughts and listen to our hearts, being fed by the Power of the Lord within us.

The Lord Himself "no more remembers" things before we were saved, thus so too, He gives us the same power to trump and divert from such remembrances. :)

I am not there yet, but neither is God finished working on me.

Noting ~ when Jesus "accomplished" what He came "to do", He called in "finished". If you are "accomplished" in being saved, and born again; it is "finished". We simple wait for the day for it to be "done", ie no longer "subject to" having to be in a "corrupt" World.

John 19:
28 ~ Jesus accomplished
30 ~ Jesus finished

John 16:
33 Jesus overcame the World

Rev 21:
6 Jesus....Done

1 John 5:
4: Man born of God overcomes the World.

Give God the glory!

Amen and Amen!!

Men saved and born again, live "in" the World, but are no longer "of" the World.

Many Blessing to you and yours,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

:)
Agree. In a sense, children were children, learning bit by bit, as they were growing to receive information they could process.

The scripture says,

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

And it also says:

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 18:4

What happens early on makes a difference later. What happens later if we are were earlier also makes a difference.
My father served God, but I never lived with him during my childhood. My mother did not begin to serve God until many years after I was no longer living in her household.

I missed out on the first verse for there was no one in the home to train me up proper. On the second one, I would is where I was able to make it in...

Indoctrination!! To the max! Children skipping the oh so necessary "home" foundation building. Being instead exposed to lying, cheating, sex, drugs, greed, adult issues, demands, entitled, crime, killing....
Bombarded, in Schools, Homes, Tv, kids raising kids and the umpteen Videos that pepurtuate all of those things are child's play games.
Unbelievable!

The evil ways and training were also there in our youth, but certainly in my case I was only able to see it looking back. I wondered then why I could not be a better Catholic, but now I know. I did not know what existed outside of the typical Catholic domain but in those days no one could have convinced me how much in error that church was.

True ONLY God shall remedy.
But I think we are past the land healing (until He returns) and the healing is in "individuals" out of the Nations.
Ie a time of sorrows.

Yes, the land to be healed is only this, or within this, little lump of flesh God has given to each of us.

Would you have EVER thought, growing up in America, to be a witness to, in such a short time-span;

TO openly hear so much ANTI-Christ being publically spouted?
And God Forbid; Accepted AND Encouraged? !!!

Just so! Help us dear Lord!

Things things have to be dealt with...
Land, the People, Fallen spirits.
We already know to expect the judgement of Wrath upon the Land, effect upon the remaining people and battle of fallen spirits....everything being effected by the Power of the Word of God.

The cool things is; Inasmuch as we have the power to remember, so too we have the power to forget.

Just saying; while things may pop into our minds, we have the power in our hearts, to subdue those thoughts and listen to our hearts, being fed by the Power of the Lord within us.

The Lord Himself "no more remembers" things before we were saved, thus so too, He gives us the same power to trump and divert from such remembrances. :)

Give God the glory!

Noting ~ when Jesus "accomplished" what He came "to do", He called in "finished". If you are "accomplished" in being saved, and born again; it is "finished". We simple wait for the day for it to be "done", ie no longer "subject to" having to be in a "corrupt" World.

John 19:
28 ~ Jesus accomplished
30 ~ Jesus finished

John 16:
33 Jesus overcame the World

Rev 21:
6 Jesus....Done

1 John 5:
4: Man born of God overcomes the World.

Amen and Amen!!

Men saved and born again, live "in" the World, but are no longer "of" the World.

Many Blessing to you and yours,
Taken

And if we endure with Him we will eventually also no longer be "IN" the world"

 

[Taken]

The scripture says,

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

And it also says:

"Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
Matt 18:4

What happens early on makes a difference later. What happens later if we are were earlier also makes a difference.
My father served God, but I never lived with him during my childhood. My mother did not begin to serve God until many years after I was no longer living in her household.

I missed out on the first verse for there was no one in the home to train me up proper. On the second one, I would is where I was able to make it in...


The evil ways and training were also there in our youth, but certainly in my case I was only able to see it looking back. I wondered then why I could not be a better Catholic, but now I know. I did not know what existed outside of the typical Catholic domain but in those days no one could have convinced me how much in error that church was.

Yes, the land to be healed is only this, or within this, little lump of flesh God has given to each of us.


Just so! Help us dear Lord!


Give God the glory!


And if we endure with Him we will eventually also no longer be "IN" the world"

I grew up very poor. Not that I thought I was poor, but rather, I thought everyone else who had 'things', was rich.
I noticed a big difference, seeing friends who had "things", but yet had a lot of arguing and fighting, that we did not have in our house.

I did not grow up in the Church, but rather grew up with love and trust and respect for my parents. Mom went to Church, and taught me somewhat about God, about Christ, and thus, because I trusted her: I believed.

I decided as an adult, my own desire to want to know About this God I believed in, and Why. I tried a couple of Churches, and was not impressed, with the slow process.

So, just saying ~ Every individual has to decide for themselves, regardless of their circumstances, what they desire for themselves, and seek it.

And the Awesome thing in Seeking the Lord, is, when one Seeks Him, they find Him!

God Bless,
Taken

 

[amadeus]

I grew up very poor. Not that I thought I was poor, but rather, I thought everyone else who had 'things', was rich.
I noticed a big difference, seeing friends who had "things", but yet had a lot of arguing and fighting, that we did not have in our house.

I did not grow up in the Church, but rather grew up with love and trust and respect for my parents. Mom went to Church, and taught me somewhat about God, about Christ, and thus, because I trusted her: I believed.

I decided as an adult, my own desire to want to know About this God I believed in, and Why. I tried a couple of Churches, and was not impressed, with the slow process.

So, just saying ~ Every individual has to decide for themselves, regardless of their circumstances, what they desire for themselves, and seek it.

And the Awesome thing in Seeking the Lord, is, when one Seeks Him, they find Him!

God Bless,
Taken

Thank you for sharing with us here.
Give God the glory!

 

[Taken]

Thank you for sharing with us here.
Give God the glory!

:)

If I had the talent for stand up comedy, growing up poor would give me endless material!

I have several siblings, some as adults are bitter, and sadly carry that "poor me" factor as an excuse for bitterness;
but one sister and I who are very much alike, roll in laughter at reminiscing of being without, making do, making up jobs, like selling our school art-work to neighbors, to earn a few pennies to buy and split a pop-cicle lol

I certainly believe God is disappointed in many things here on earth, but I think also He laughs at some things.

Amen. Praise and Glory to God.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

I certainly believe God is disappointed in many things here on earth, but I think also He laughs at some things.

ha we all make God in our own image, huh

 

[Taken]

ha we all make God in our own image, huh

Uh no. Mankind was made in His image and likeness. Man fell from His likeness and image. Men who become saved and born again are restored to His likeness, and shall have the manifestation of being in His image, later revealed.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[bbyrd009]

Mankind was made in His image and likeness. Man fell from His likeness and image.

(one of these things
is not like the other...)

lol

but my comment was about how we personify God to make Him more understandable, or approachable or something

 

[amadeus]

:)

If I had the talent for stand up comedy, growing up poor would give me endless material!

I have several siblings, some as adults are bitter, and sadly carry that "poor me" factor as an excuse for bitterness;
but one sister and I who are very much alike, roll in laughter at reminiscing of being without, making do, making up jobs, like selling our school art-work to neighbors, to earn a few pennies to buy and split a pop-cicle lol

I certainly believe God is disappointed in many things here on earth, but I think also He laughs at some things.

Amen. Praise and Glory to God.

God Bless,
Taken

Well I am glad that God brought you to Him in spite of where you started. He has made allowance for each person so that they can come if they are so inclined. No matter where a person was before they came, they still had to start at the bottom.

I remember when I was growing up and I wanted a candy bar [5c] or a soda pop [10c] I would walk around the little town where I lived collecting glass pop bottles. All of them were good for return deposits of 3c for small bottles and 5c for large bottles. It wasn't hard to find plenty of bottles people had thrown away. There were no plastic bottles and the bottling companies really wanted them back to re-use.