The New Perspective on Paul

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Naomi25

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Hi, I was wondering if anyone actually understood what this "new perspective" is, and if they could break it down for me. I've heard of it, and tried to do some research on it, but all I've managed to find are either to vague to help me get a handle on it, or so long-winded high theology lectures that I have no real hope "getting" what they're saying. And yet it seems to me like it could be a big deal, so I'd like to have a notion of what it's all about.
 

Helen

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If it is "new" then I am presuming it is some man's 'good idea', bad idea, or just more of man casting some more negativism on Paul's writings.

The writings, God breathed are what is important for our edification and learning...not man's attempted of destruction of a person serving his Lord.

Hopefully I have it all backwards, and somehow this turns out to be a good thing...but in this day and age "new perspective" sounds more like 'redefining' by man to me.
I am watching this space.
Hopefully it will be positive and not negative. :)
 
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Naomi25

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Hi ByGrace. Yes, I do believe it is realitively new. I can't remember some of the big names that really pushed it off, but know that N.T. Wright is a big proponent of it. From what little I've managed to dredge up (facts are woefully thin on the ground, hence this thread!) it makes me itch a little. I think it's hitting the whole...'faith alone' issue. It's not that it's not faith alone (somehow, which is highly confusing), anymore, but that they think that more of it rests on us than the Reformation doctrines would lead us to believe. Like I said...it makes me itch!
 

Helen

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Hi ByGrace. Yes, I do believe it is realitively new. I can't remember some of the big names that really pushed it off, but know that N.T. Wright is a big proponent of it. From what little I've managed to dredge up (facts are woefully thin on the ground, hence this thread!) it makes me itch a little. I think it's hitting the whole...'faith alone' issue. It's not that it's not faith alone (somehow, which is highly confusing), anymore, but that they think that more of it rests on us than the Reformation doctrines would lead us to believe. Like I said...it makes me itch!

Thank you...it makes me more than itch!! o_O
 

ScottA

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Hi, I was wondering if anyone actually understood what this "new perspective" is, and if they could break it down for me. I've heard of it, and tried to do some research on it, but all I've managed to find are either to vague to help me get a handle on it, or so long-winded high theology lectures that I have no real hope "getting" what they're saying. And yet it seems to me like it could be a big deal, so I'd like to have a notion of what it's all about.
I don't get what it is they are calling "new."

Certainly, there is nothing new about those who lean for or against Paul.
 
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Naomi25

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Curious - I am not entirely sure what is a being said, I need to try and read it again..... Or check out the other links, maybe there is a summery of the basic !
N.T. Wright and the New Perspective on Paul by Ligon Duncan
Butterfly

Thanks for this. It was pretty heavy wading (not helped by my family interrupting me every other sentence!!) Some of it I expect went over me, but it did sort of confirm what I already suspected in one regard: the "new perspective" comes dangerously close to condoning a works based salvation. Not in the earning of said salvation, but in the keeping of it. Basically...you get "in" for free, but if you don't step up to the plate while in, you get kicked out. Which I just don't see Paul teaching.

I don't get what it is they are calling "new."

Certainly, there is nothing new about those who lean for or against Paul.

Well, I didn't name it!! ;)

isn't this a sign, don't you think? when ppl who have a pastor do not grasp their relationship to the law, and thus to works done from faith?

Again, I don't really get what you're aiming at. Who are you talking about in this post? The people who hold to this 'new' doctrine, or me? Sometimes I feel like you're being deliberately vague while making these half sarcastic, eye-rolling, posts that are only a sentence long. If you have an idea, or disagree with something, why can't you just come out and actually say it, and take maybe even a paragraph so people might have a chance to understand a little context....
 

mjrhealth

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When theologians get involved, you need to go to university to understand which is pre school level... They always over complicate a simple message.
 
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Stranger

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Hi, I was wondering if anyone actually understood what this "new perspective" is, and if they could break it down for me. I've heard of it, and tried to do some research on it, but all I've managed to find are either to vague to help me get a handle on it, or so long-winded high theology lectures that I have no real hope "getting" what they're saying. And yet it seems to me like it could be a big deal, so I'd like to have a notion of what it's all about.

I know. You need someone to help you out here. Same old story.

Stranger
 

Helen

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the "new perspective" comes dangerously close to condoning a works based salvation. Not in the earning of said salvation, but in the keeping of it. Basically...you get "in" for free, but if you don't step up to the plate while in, you get kicked out. Which I just don't see Paul teaching.

Thanks, I didn't know that...and I agree, nowhere does Paul say this!!
People are always muddling up our free gift of salvation and our position in The Kingdom. Paul was a teacher, not so much an evangelist...his message was to The Church...he preach to the - perfecting of the saints= Maturing of the saints and to the passion of running the race...
 
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FHII

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I read it.... And Peter says some thing Paul says were hard to understand!

My advice for anyone who wants to understand Paul is to read the book of acts. Read it as a historical account. Not a bunch of chapters with verses; but understand the history.

As you go, make note of his visits. Then simply read his epistles with the context of the history book (Acts) in mind. Again, read the epistles without reference to chapters and verses. Rather look at the flow and overall idealogy.

I don't buy this new perspective. How can we have a new perspective on an old writing? The answer is that the perspective changed with Catholicism and then Protestantism. If you want something new... Go back to the original... Which isn't new.

Paul was against pressing Jewish traditions on the gentiles. He was also for a sense of morality. Yet several times he notes liberty in all things by grace. 1 Cor 6, for example; he says, " Yea, all things are lawful, but that doesn't mean they are necessary or edifying! I can do them but I am not going to let them control me!" [heavily paraphrasing].

In short... Go back to the original text and listen to what it really says, not what theologians tell you it says.
 
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Butterfly

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I read it.... And Peter says some thing Paul says were hard to understand!

My advice for anyone who wants to understand Paul is to read the book of acts. Read it as a historical account. Not a bunch of chapters with verses; but understand the history.

As you go, make note of his visits. Then simply read his epistles with the context of the history book (Acts) in mind. Again, read the epistles without reference to chapters and verses. Rather look at the flow and overall idealogy.

I don't buy this new perspective. How can we have a new perspective on an old writing? The answer is that the perspective changed with Catholicism and then Protestantism. If you want something new... Go back to the original... Which isn't new.

Paul was against pressing Jewish traditions on the gentiles. He was also for a sense of morality. Yet several times he notes liberty in all things by grace. 1 Cor 6, for example; he says, " Yea, all things are lawful, but that doesn't mean they are necessary or edifying! I can do them but I am not going to let them control me!" [heavily paraphrasing].

In short... Go back to the original text and listen to what it really says, not what theologians tell you it says.
Totally agree, you have to weigh his teaching up in context of why he wrote the letters ect.
Butterfly
 
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Butterfly

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Thanks for this. It was pretty heavy wading (not helped by my family interrupting me every other sentence!!) Some of it I expect went over me, but it did sort of confirm what I already suspected in one regard: the "new perspective" comes dangerously close to condoning a works based salvation. Not in the earning of said salvation, but in the keeping of it. Basically...you get "in" for free, but if you don't step up to the plate while in, you get kicked out. Which I just don't see Paul teaching.

...
Hi Naomi, well you explained it in a way I understood- if that is what the ' new ' prospective is, then I do not agree with it. I notice that this was original ' new ' in the 60's - an interesting era , with much change going on within society and within the Church no doubt- do you think that may have had a connection to endeavouring to challenge what people ' did ' and perhaps a way of keeping Christians ' in line ' ......... Just a thought !!
Butterfly
 
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Taken

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In all the gobleygook I am not particularly seeing anything new.

Hebrews/Jews were given laws.

The premise was; to please God, was; to obey the laws.

The laws were steeped in behaviors and works and consequences, for both good and ill behavior and works.

So, bottom line ~ yes, much in the laws had to do with works....and yes, the tradition of how to be forgiven for not adhering to the law, was provided.

Enter Paul ~
Firm believer in God.
A Jew and expert in Jewish Law.
Pharisee with authority to enforce Jewish Law.
Exercised his knowledge and authority.
Also a Gentile, and Roman Citzen.

Enter Jesus ~
Chooses Paul for a difficult task.
Teach those not under the Law, not subject to God, a subjection to Christ the Lord, rather than the Law (ie Gentiles).

Crowds, of listeners; mixed with Jews under the Law, subjected to God, and Gentiles.

Step in Paul's shoes ~ teach to one crowd, steeped in God and Jewish Laws, and with men not steeped in God or Jewish Laws.

A lesson from God ~ in the beginnnig.
Teach men with "terms" already made familiar to them. (Ie by God who established what things were called and what certain things could be efficiently used for)

Jews were familiar with EVERYTHING being called a Sin that was not pleasing to God.
(Ie. works and behaviors)
A man's ill behavior toward a man, was called a Sin, and men forgave men of Sins.

Gentiles? Who was forgiving their ill works or ill behaviors? Religious statues?

Enter - the New Knowledge Revealed.

Enter the Gospel of the Word of God....
And Forgiveness and Permanent Salvation.

Enter Grace -
One Power, One Savior, One Body, One Blood,
One Forgiveness, One Saving, One Quickening,
One Forever With God.

Inasmuch as Jews found the New Knowledge confusing to their Law based Works required...
So too was the New Knowledge confusing to Gentiles who had not God or His Laws or Knowledge of Service/Works acceptable to Him.

Today ~ Teachings ~ (primarily, but not exclusively)

Jews - discarded Grace of Christ Jesus, and reverted to being subjected to Jewish Laws,
And traditions, and forgivenesses, and works important to please God and establish their obtaining a place in the Kingdom of Heaven and Earth.

Gentiles - teach soul saving is permanent, quickening (born again) spirit is permanent,
Gods Indwelling Spirit is permanent.........
But Gods Forgiveness is temporary.
(Which is according to the same basis as a Jew under the law)
And
Men can sin against men and forgive men of sin.

Personally I believe Scripture taught NEW Knowledge.

Only God forgives Sin, and we see Scripture revealing Christ has that Power.

Christ Jesus is the Truth, and what He speaks is pure truth.

God has no subjection to Time.
God's subjection by His own counsel, is subject to His Word, which is the Same, which He requires of a man, who chooses to be subject to Him.

Christ Jesus forgave my sins Against God Once.
All of them.

Christ, cleansed my body with His Blood, sanctified my crucified body, annointed my body, keeps my body, until the day He shall glorify my body, saved (restored) my soul, gave me a new pure heart, quickened (born again), my natural spirit to a spiritual spirit, (via circumcision & His Spirit), and dwells within me, with His Spirit of Truth, feeding my spirit with His Spirit.

Men do not sin against me, nor do I sin against men. Men do not forgive me of sin, nor do I forgive men of sin.
Nor do I sin Against God, (not because of my power) but BY His Power within me, that has given me forever Full FaithFULLNESS to Him Only.

Works ~ How to SERVE the Lord with "works" that are pleasing to Him?

Taught in Hebrew and Jewish Laws, many excellent things that one can do to Exalt and Glorify Gods Great Names.....VOID of the man subjecting himself to the Law.

Under Grace, such Works that do Glorify Gods Great Names on Earth .... are accounted as Service unto the Lord that shall be Rewarded, to men who Have become Saved and Born Again.

Under Grace, such Works that do NOT Glorify Gods Great Names on Earth....are not accounted....thus shall have no record for such a man to receive a rewards for those Works.

Inasmuch a many Jews today, continue being subjected to their Jewish Laws.....
So also, do Christians Teach Gentile Christians to SAY, they are not under the Law, while preaching they are under the Laws of Sin;
And those so taught, consistently accuse other Christians of committing Sin....
And consistently claim to repeatedly asking the Lord for forgiveness of Sins, they claim to commit.

So, is there a NEW revelation of what or how Paul taught? Nah.

However I believe there is an wide-spread lack of mans understanding....According to; Gods Wisdom and Gods Understanding.

God Bless,
Taken.
 
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Helen

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FHll ~

Thank you.
BTW, Thumbs up on your choice of avatar !

God Bless,
Taken

Agree, good avatar.
He should have longer hair... private joke between FHll and myself :)
 
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Taken

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Agree, good avatar.
He should have longer hair... private joke between FHll and myself :)

My Goodness Sister, you and I must have spent much time reading and studying much of the same things. Refreshing!

God Bless You and Yours Greatly,
Taken
 
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