The Nicene Creed is not Christian

[OzSpen]

Yes I indeed do Oz, and this is about the oldest false teaching in Christianity. IMO it was highly influenced by the pollution of the early church with Judeo converts who could not accept the triune nature of God as clearly revealed in Jesus. Although the OT, and even the Hebrew word Elohim, clearly connoted a plurality in God, some could not get away from that incomplete monotheistic perspective. Indeed Arius was the most vocal, ad are many of his followers today.
There is NO doubt in my view, that the Bible clearly depicts the triune nature of God, which is why so many Jews condemned Jesus in His day, as they understood His claim of divinity.
I am on another forum where Unis abound, as they are not restricted, although lately they have been told to NOT initiate anymore threads on the subject. They are indeed a tenacious bunch, but then again so are most who spread false teaching. Again, IMO, these who do so are apostate, having left their initial understanding of who Jesus was as their savior.
The main tool they use is condescending and dismissive responses, no different than JWs use, as they are very closely aligned to them.

The history of this site is that they don't last long and are pretty much restricted to one sub forum. Again IMO, they should not be allowed to label themselves as Christian, but I don't make the rules.

Blessings.

Stan,

Anti-Trinitarianism was one of the oldest heresies in the Christian church, Gnosticism being a wee bit older. The unitarianism of Arius and Arians led to the Council of Nicea to thrash out this heresy and lead to the statement of an orthodox faith in The Nicene Creed.

In that other very large forum where I first met you, they wouldn't tolerate unitarians in the main forums either and would usher them very quickly to the Unorthodox directory - as they do here. For that, I'm grateful. It tells me that this forum is interested in promoting orthodox, evangelical Christianity and will not tolerate the teachings of those who dissent from theological orthodoxy.

IMO, those who cannot accept the orthodox Trinitarian view of God cannot be Christian, no matter how much they plead that they are Christians and follow Jesus' way. There is a strong bunch of Christadelphians (who are unitarian) in my region and they use the language of some on this forum that they are following the teachings of Jesus. There's another group that does this. They are the churches that promote theological liberalism.

I'm with you that unitarians cannot label themselves as Christians for these reasons:

1. Since they reject the Trinity, they are worshipping the wrong Jesus, i.e.
2. Their Jesus is not God;
3. Therefore, they cannot be born again as the new birth is related to the work of the Holy Spirit (who is God), changing a person from the inside out because of Jesus' atoning sacrifice.

You've helped to make my Lord's Day in your support of biblical orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Oz

 

[mjrhealth]

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

oz said: I consider it myopic of you not to refer to other teachers to check out your teaching and wisdom.

zeke25: I do. I check out Peter, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, etc.

Since you check out Paul, it's a shame you don't take more notice of what he teaches. What did he say was the purpose of the ministry gift of 'teachers'? According to Eph 4:12-14 (ESV), it was 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by ever wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes'

Do you see what you are missing when you refuse to engage with the teaching gifts of God's faithful teachers down through the centuries? You are resisting:

• God's teachers who are designated to equip you for your ministry;
• You are giving the thumbs down to those to whom you should be giving the thumbs up - to build up the body of Christ. It tells me what you think of the body of Christ when you refuse to promote God's gift of teachers and their biblical content to build up the body.
• You are shattering the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God;
• You are devastating God's plan to bring people to maturity;
• This involves refusal to join with God's teachers to bring people to fullness in Christ.
• Your refusal to engage with other Bible teachers demonstrates that you are not wanting to join with other teachers in stopping Christians being drawn into false doctrines - every wind of doctrine.
• You are refusing to adopt the preventative measure to stop people from being drawn into the human cunning, craftiness and deceitful schemes of teachers of false doctrines.

What a slap in God's face your tactic is to God's design for teachers other than Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul in the body of Christ. Your refusal to accept the ministry gift of teaching from God's gifted teachers is a demonstration that you are not being faithful as a teacher of God's word because your philosophy includes a dimension that repudiates biblical Christianity.

oz: Zeke and his wife are not the fountain heads of all godly wisdom.

zeke25: I'm glad we can agree on this. But I must admit I detect sarcasm and pillow dreams that you brought with you to this response. You sure didn't get this from anything I said. Your only source is your wild imagination.

Yes, there was some sarcasm in what I said. BUT I sure did get that issue from something you said. You refused to accept the God-given ministry of God's gifted teachers down through church history and in the present time that are sent by God for the edification of the church - including your ministry.

My ministry would be so much the poorer if it were not for my being exposed to the teaching ministry of Augustine of Hippo. I'm currently writing an article for my homepage on 'Secular assaults on the Bible: The errorless Bible battles' (I should upload it tonight). I will include the teaching of Augustine (ca. 354-430) on the nature of the Bible:

On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the Ms. is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason (Letter 83.2, Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers, First Series, vol 1, p. 350, emphasis added).

oz: Many, many wise teachers have gone before us and God has given them to the church for our edification and help.

zeke25: Many theological camps claim to have a myriad of wise teachers. Most that I check out have prejudices and a fallen nature - these teachers are of no value to me, or you, or anyone else. But they are still banners waved by other fallen heads. Once again, you want a list, or you want to make a list, and claim how great they are. I haven't seen it. I have seen the opposite. So, what now? Do we start debating teachers through the centuries or do we just stick with the Bible? Are there some great teachers, yes I agree. Are there many, not in a New York minute? This is the problem with exalting teachers (as Paul warns us against), pride rears its ugly head. So, if you want to brag about your education or your vast knowledge of various teachers you will not find an agreeing ear plastered on the side of my head. Instead, I will mock your presumption, which it so richly deserves.

Brother, ALL of us have prejudices and a fallen nature - you and me included. There's no need to tell me about 'a myriad of wise teachers' who fall into that category. Are you excluding yourself from this category?

I have never, ever said I want a list to claim how great they are. That's your false invention about me. I merely gave some examples of helpful teachers down through the history of the church. Do you have NO books of teaching in your library? Do you only have your KJV Bible? Is that the only biblical book in your library?

Ah, so you agree there are some great teachers. I have never exalted any particular teachers. I cite those that are helpful in their ministry according to Eph 4:11-16 (ESV).

Why are you making another false statement about me - bragging about my education, and vast knowledge of various teachers? Will you please quit your lying about me?

oz: Other teachers have taught error and that error - that influences the churches - should be refuted. You can't refute it if you are not reading these false teachers.

zeke: I refute them all the time, but mostly their heresy. Do you really think you have been exposed to my teachings on an exhaustive scale? Really, what is your hang up? I think maybe you should take an asprin, settle down, and go back to refuting the heretics on this thread, which you have been doing a better job of than the average. I'm not very gentle when it comes to dealing with pridefulness and mind readers.

From what you have displayed on this forum, I wouldn't want to be exposed to your teachings on an exhaustive scale. Why? Because you don't have a biblical view of the ministry gift of teachers.

Your other put downs of me here are not worthy of my comment.

oz: In fact, if you dared to check out a few other Bible teachers, you would find that your fixation with the KJV would be challenged BIG TIME.

zeke: This one sure came out of left field. If you've got a problem with the KJV, what does that have to do with me? Go take it up with your shrink, I haven't time to play games that you make up in your head.

So are you or are you not a user and promoter of the KJV?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

God the Father and God the Son both have bodies. God the Holy Spirit has not flesh and bones (a body).

Are you saying that God the Father has a flesh and bones body?

 

[ewq1938]

Are you saying that God the Father has a flesh and bones body?

Scripture makes that obvious.

 

[OzSpen]

Scripture makes that obvious.

Your assertion proves zilch. Please provide the biblical evidence.

 

[zeke25]

Since you check out Paul, it's a shame you don't take more notice of what he teaches. What did he say was the purpose of the ministry gift of 'teachers'? According to Eph 4:12-14 (ESV), it was 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by ever wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes'

Do you see what you are missing when you refuse to engage with the teaching gifts of God's faithful teachers down through the centuries? You are resisting:

• God's teachers who are designated to equip you for your ministry;
• You are giving the thumbs down to those to whom you should be giving the thumbs up - to build up the body of Christ. It tells me what you think of the body of Christ when you refuse to promote God's gift of teachers and their biblical content to build up the body.
• You are shattering the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God;
• You are devastating God's plan to bring people to maturity;
• This involves refusal to join with God's teachers to bring people to fullness in Christ.
• Your refusal to engage with other Bible teachers demonstrates that you are not wanting to join with other teachers in stopping Christians being drawn into false doctrines - every wind of doctrine.
• You are refusing to adopt the preventative measure to stop people from being drawn into the human cunning, craftiness and deceitful schemes of teachers of false doctrines.

What a slap in God's face your tactic is to God's design for teachers other than Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul in the body of Christ. Your refusal to accept the ministry gift of teaching from God's gifted teachers is a demonstration that you are not being faithful as a teacher of God's word because your philosophy includes a dimension that repudiates biblical Christianity.


Yes, there was some sarcasm in what I said. BUT I sure did get that issue from something you said. You refused to accept the God-given ministry of God's gifted teachers down through church history and in the present time that are sent by God for the edification of the church - including your ministry.

My ministry would be so much the poorer if it were not for my being exposed to the teaching ministry of Augustine of Hippo. I'm currently writing an article for my homepage on 'Secular assaults on the Bible: The errorless Bible battles' (I should upload it tonight). I will include the teaching of Augustine (ca. 354-430) on the nature of the Bible:

On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the Ms. is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason (Letter 83.2, Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers, First Series, vol 1, p. 350, emphasis added).


Brother, ALL of us have prejudices and a fallen nature - you and me included. There's no need to tell me about 'a myriad of wise teachers' who fall into that category. Are you excluding yourself from this category?

I have never, ever said I want a list to claim how great they are. That's your false invention about me. I merely gave some examples of helpful teachers down through the history of the church. Do you have NO books of teaching in your library? Do you only have your KJV Bible? Is that the only biblical book in your library?

Ah, so you agree there are some great teachers. I have never exalted any particular teachers. I cite those that are helpful in their ministry according to Eph 4:11-16 (ESV).

Why are you making another false statement about me - bragging about my education, and vast knowledge of various teachers? Will you please quit your lying about me?


From what you have displayed on this forum, I wouldn't want to be exposed to your teachings on an exhaustive scale. Why? Because you don't have a biblical view of the ministry gift of teachers.

Your other put downs of me here are not worthy of my comment.


So are you or are you not a user and promoter of the KJV?

Oz

Oz,

You're biblically illiterate. No, need to continue any discussion with you. You have nothing to say that edifies the Body of Christ.

Zeke25

 

[Butch5]

Since you check out Paul, it's a shame you don't take more notice of what he teaches. What did he say was the purpose of the ministry gift of 'teachers'? According to Eph 4:12-14 (ESV), it was 'to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for the building up of the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by ever wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes'

Do you see what you are missing when you refuse to engage with the teaching gifts of God's faithful teachers down through the centuries? You are resisting:

• God's teachers who are designated to equip you for your ministry;
• You are giving the thumbs down to those to whom you should be giving the thumbs up - to build up the body of Christ. It tells me what you think of the body of Christ when you refuse to promote God's gift of teachers and their biblical content to build up the body.
• You are shattering the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God;
• You are devastating God's plan to bring people to maturity;
• This involves refusal to join with God's teachers to bring people to fullness in Christ.
• Your refusal to engage with other Bible teachers demonstrates that you are not wanting to join with other teachers in stopping Christians being drawn into false doctrines - every wind of doctrine.
• You are refusing to adopt the preventative measure to stop people from being drawn into the human cunning, craftiness and deceitful schemes of teachers of false doctrines.

What a slap in God's face your tactic is to God's design for teachers other than Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Paul in the body of Christ. Your refusal to accept the ministry gift of teaching from God's gifted teachers is a demonstration that you are not being faithful as a teacher of God's word because your philosophy includes a dimension that repudiates biblical Christianity.


Yes, there was some sarcasm in what I said. BUT I sure did get that issue from something you said. You refused to accept the God-given ministry of God's gifted teachers down through church history and in the present time that are sent by God for the edification of the church - including your ministry.

My ministry would be so much the poorer if it were not for my being exposed to the teaching ministry of Augustine of Hippo. I'm currently writing an article for my homepage on 'Secular assaults on the Bible: The errorless Bible battles' (I should upload it tonight). I will include the teaching of Augustine (ca. 354-430) on the nature of the Bible:

On such terms we might amuse ourselves without fear of offending each other in the field of Scripture, but I might well wonder if the amusement was not at my expense. For I confess to your Charity that I have learned to yield this respect and honour only to the canonical books of Scripture: of these alone do I most firmly believe that the authors were completely free from error. And if in these writings I am perplexed by anything which appears to me opposed to truth, I do not hesitate to suppose that either the Ms. is faulty, or the translator has not caught the meaning of what was said, or I myself have failed to understand it. As to all other writings, in reading them, however great the superiority of the authors to myself in sanctity and learning, I do not accept their teaching as true on the mere ground of the opinion being held by them; but only because they have succeeded in convincing my judgment of its truth either by means of these canonical writings themselves, or by arguments addressed to my reason (Letter 83.2, Nicene and Post-Nicene Church Fathers, First Series, vol 1, p. 350, emphasis added).


Brother, ALL of us have prejudices and a fallen nature - you and me included. There's no need to tell me about 'a myriad of wise teachers' who fall into that category. Are you excluding yourself from this category?

I have never, ever said I want a list to claim how great they are. That's your false invention about me. I merely gave some examples of helpful teachers down through the history of the church. Do you have NO books of teaching in your library? Do you only have your KJV Bible? Is that the only biblical book in your library?

Ah, so you agree there are some great teachers. I have never exalted any particular teachers. I cite those that are helpful in their ministry according to Eph 4:11-16 (ESV).

Why are you making another false statement about me - bragging about my education, and vast knowledge of various teachers? Will you please quit your lying about me?


From what you have displayed on this forum, I wouldn't want to be exposed to your teachings on an exhaustive scale. Why? Because you don't have a biblical view of the ministry gift of teachers.

Your other put downs of me here are not worthy of my comment.


So are you or are you not a user and promoter of the KJV?

Oz

Oz,

You argue for logic in your discussions with others. What logic is there in placing a past tense verb in the future? In Eph 4 Paul said, Christ gave some teachers. He didn't say He will give or He is giving, he said He gave. In your post you used that passage and then spoke of God's teacher thought out history. Can you give evidence that any teacher other than the apostles has been sent by God? Honestly, looking at the multitude of denominations and beliefs in the Church I find it odd that you would argue that teachers are sent from God.

I also found your statement about Augustine a little unsettling. There was a fair amount of error that was introduced into the church via Augustine. His view of the Trinity and his just war theory are just two.

 

[StanJ]

God the Father and God the Son both have bodies. God the Holy Spirit has not flesh and bones (a body).

The point is a spirit is part of a person not a person itself.

Apparently you have NOT read John 2:24?

A human being is a person and has personality. Physicality is only one part of that personage.
God is also a person and has a personality, albeit perfect, and His Body is Jesus Christ, as God incarnate. Your narrow use of person is your problem, not a problem for those that understand.

 

[StanJ]

Oz,

You argue for logic in your discussions with others. What logic is there in placing a past tense verb in the future? In Eph 4 Paul said, Christ gave some teachers. He didn't say He will give or He is giving, he said He gave. In your post you used that passage and then spoke of God's teacher thought out history. Can you give evidence that any teacher other than the apostles has been sent by God? Honestly, looking at the multitude of denominations and beliefs in the Church I find it odd that you would argue that teachers are sent from God.

I also found your statement about Augustine a little unsettling. There was a fair amount of error that was introduced into the church via Augustine. His view of the Trinity and his just war theory are just two.

He gave to the church, as those gifts are perpetuated by the Holy Spirit. A calling is another thing and not all are called to be a teacher, preacher, pastor or elder. It is personal between God and that person. What Jesus gave was the office, and He only had to give that once, just as He only died once to enable and give salvation to those who heed the Father's calling. Your logic, is NOT logic, it is a logical fallacy.

 

[ewq1938]

Your assertion proves zilch. Please provide the biblical evidence.

Does the Father have a body? Yes:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Two words are used:

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


There is no need to debate who the "we" are here but it definitely included God the Father and someone or more than one someone. Most believe it includes Angels so let's use that to simplify things.

image
H6754
???
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.


The underlined is not particularly important since that is the definition of this word's root word but the rest of the text is this words actual definition. Here we see that essentially the "figure" of something is is a physical representation of the original. It would be akin to a boy being extra tall like his father and maybe grandfather. That boy would be the "figure" of his male relative in a physical sense. Angels have the basic head, two arms and legs and torso...the basic "human" type design. God the Father has been seen and described in the scriptures and has the same physical design. It is then clear he used his own form, whether a permanent or a temporary form, as a pattern for much of his creations ie: Angels and Mankind.

likeness
H1823
??????
demu^th
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.


And this word has the same basic meaning as well.


So, if our physical image is after God's then we should not be surprised that the Father also has a body, as does his Son and Angels etc.



Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


Here we see the same exact words and wording. The meaning is exactly the same: someone who physically resembled their parent.


Gill

man being the principal part of the creation, and for the sake of whom the world, and all things in it were made, and which being finished, he is introduced into it as into an house ready prepared and furnished for him; a consultation is held among the divine Persons about the formation of him; not because of any difficulty attending it, but as expressive of his honour and dignity; it being proposed he should be made not in the likeness of any of the creatures already made, but as near as could be in the likeness and image of God.

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image,.... Which consisted both in the form of his body, and the erect stature of it, different from all other creatures

Here are some scriptures which show that the Father does have hands and arms and a head and hair....and....well you get the idea...he is not a spirit according to what Christ said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:

The Ancient of days - God Almighty; and this is the only place in the sacred writings where God the Father is represented in a human form.

Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve could HEAR the sound of God walking! Does a bodiless spirit walk? Does a bodiless spirit make a sound when "walking"?


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" nor does a spirit make walking sounds while walking.


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:

though he had wrestled with one so vastly superior to himself, who could have easily crushed this worm Jacob to pieces, as he is sometimes called; and though he had had such a sight of God as face to faces referring, as is thought, to a notion that obtained early, even among good men, that upon sight of God a man instantly died; though we have no example of that kind: but perhaps he observed this for his encouragement; that whereas he had met with God himself, and wrestled with him in the form of a man, and yet was preserved, he doubted not that, when he should meet with his brother and debate matters with him, he should be safe and unhurt.

(note: M.H. here believe this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:

This was doubtless the Lord Jesus Christ, who, among the patriarchs, assumed that human form, which in the fullness of time he really took of a woman, and in which he dwelt thirty-three years among men. He is here styled an angel, because he was µe?a??? ß????? ???e???, (see the Septuagint, Isa_9:7), the Messenger of the great counsel or design to redeem fallen man from death, and bring him to eternal glory; see Gen_16:7.
But it may be asked, Had he here a real human body, or only its form? The latter, doubtless.

Barnes:

There are, then, three acts in this dramatic scene: first, Jacob wrestling with the Omnipresent in the form of a man, in which he is signally defeated; second, Jacob importunately supplicating Yahweh, in which he prevails as a prince of God; third, Jacob receiving the blessing of a new name, a new development of spiritual life, and a new capacity for bodily action.
Gen_32:31-32
Peniel - the face of God. The reason of this name is assigned in the sentence, “I have seen God face to face.” He is at first called a man. Hosea terms him the angel (Hos_12:4-5 (3, 4). And here Jacob names him God. Hence, some men, deeply penetrated with the ineffable grandeur of the divine nature, are disposed to resolve the first act at least into an impression on the imagination. We do not pretend to define with undue nicety the mode of this wrestling. And we are far from saying that every sentence of Scripture is to be understood in a literal sense. But until some cogent reason be assigned, we do not feel at liberty to depart from the literal sense in this instance. The whole theory of a revelation from God to man is founded upon the principle that God can adapt himself to the apprehension of the being whom he has made in his own image. This principle we accept, and we dare not limit its application “further than the demonstrative laws of reason and conscience demand.” If God walk in the garden with Adam, expostulate with Cain, give a specification of the ark to Noah, partake of the hospitality of Abraham, take Lot by the hand to deliver him from Sodom, we cannot affirm that he may not, for a worthy end, enter into a bodily conflict with Jacob.

Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to see what normally is not visible to us. He saw Jesus standing next to the Father. He saw two individuals, the same two we can see in many other scriptures. It is incorrect to erase the Father from all these scriptures and replace him with Jesus alone as a real visible "person".

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" yet Stephen actually saw his body, recognizing the Father visually as well as the Son.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Many have seen God, the LORD, literally sitting on a literal throne. That is simply because God has a literal body and form and sits upon a literal throne.


2Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father not only has a real body just as Christ does, but he is also fully capable of speaking audibly even though Christ is the Word of God. That doesn't mean the Father cannot speak for himself.



Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have fingers, but the Father does.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a face, and a hand, and "back parts", but the Father does.


Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

Gill:

and there was under his feet; which shows that there was a visible form

Clarke:

The seventy elders, who were representatives of the whole congregation, were chosen to witness the manifestation of God

Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.


Jesus said to the Jews that they have never heard the voice of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no voice? No. The Jews simply had never heard the Father's voice.

Jesus said to the Jews that they have never seen the shape of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no shape? No. The Jews simply had never seen the Father's shape.

This proves that the Father does in fact have a voice and a shape which is testified in many scriptures as truth.


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Here God is in physical form and literally has a book in his right hand, which is attached to his right arm. Here we see the literal right arm as well as the figurative right arm, Jesus.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands or arms, but the Father does.

 

[ewq1938]

Apparently you have NOT read John 2:24?

A human being is a person and has personality.

lol...guess where that personality originates from? Seriously, think about your responses before posting them. You aren't offering corrections here.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

You argue for logic in your discussions with others. What logic is there in placing a past tense verb in the future? In Eph 4 Paul said, Christ gave some teachers. He didn't say He will give or He is giving, he said He gave. In your post you used that passage and then spoke of God's teacher thought out history. Can you give evidence that any teacher other than the apostles has been sent by God? Honestly, looking at the multitude of denominations and beliefs in the Church I find it odd that you would argue that teachers are sent from God.

I also found your statement about Augustine a little unsettling. There was a fair amount of error that was introduced into the church via Augustine. His view of the Trinity and his just war theory are just two.

Butch,

This is what happens when you don't seem to understand the use of the aorist tense for 'gave' in Eph 4:11, 'It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers' (Eph 4: 11 NIV). The aorist is used for 'gave gifts to men' in Eph 4:8 (NIV). Charles R. Smith has provided an excellent explanation of how the aorist tense can be wrongly used (which is what you have done with your comment) in his article, 'Errant Aorist Interpreters' (Smith 1981).

Stagg wrote: 'The aorist may cover a specific act, but it may also cover repeated or extended acts; and other tenses also may cover specific acts' (in Smith 1981:218).

Therefore, God continues to give the gift of teachers to the body of Christ (Eph 4:11-16 NIV) to prepare God's people for works of service, to build up the body of Christ and to help prevent them from being blown away 'by every wind of teaching'.

What evidence do I have that any ministry gifts of Christ - including that of teachers - have been sent by God? We are told that 'by their fruit you will know them'. We also are told to 'test the spirits' of all ministries (1 John 4:1-3). God has told us in the Scripture that he will continue to give grace for the ministry gifts: 'But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it' (Eph 4:7 NIV). Until Jesus comes again, the ministry gift of teachers will continue to be given, but all such teachers (including you and me) will need to have their teaching compared with Scripture, properly interpreted. Paul warned Timothy of people who will not endure sound teaching and will have itching ears. They will accumulate teachers who teach to suit the passions of the hearers and turn them away from listening to the truth (1 Tim 4:3-4 NIV). In that context, not once did Paul say anything like, 'You must not have teachers amongst you; close down all teachers in the church because teachers are a detriment to the people of God'. Not once did he give that kind of message. The Bible's emphasis is that teachers are needed, but that we should test their teachings to see if they are from God.

So are you exempt from being part of the multitude of denominations? Or are you a solo Christian acting on your own? Do you meet with other believers at any time during the month?

As for Augustine, I've found some of his teachings not to exactly line up with Scripture, but much of his teaching is very helpful - including his view of Scripture which I quoted.

Oz

Works consulted
Smith, C R 1981. Errant aorist interpreters. Grace Theological Journal 2.2 (online), Fall, 205-26. Available at: https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted_hildebrandt/new_testament_greek/text/smith-aorist-gtj.pdf (Accessed 31 August 2015).

 

[StanJ]

lol...guess where that personality originates from? Seriously, think about your responses before posting them. You aren't offering corrections here.

Seems this is the only way your ilk can respond when confronted with truth?
If you have a point to make, make it.

 

[ewq1938]

Seems this is the only way your ilk can respond when confronted with truth?
If you have a point to make, make it.

The point was the personality originates from the spirit and soul. Again, a person is composed of three things, body soul and spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't qualify for personhood. A spirit does not have a body (no flesh or bones) according to Christ, who was and is a complete person having body soul and spirit after the resurrection. So, it is the Holy Spirit not the Holy Person.

When we die and go to heaven, we shall see two persons that are our God, the Father and the Son. There will not be a third person standing or sitting there as God.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz,

You're biblically illiterate. No, need to continue any discussion with you. You have nothing to say that edifies the Body of Christ.

Zeke25

You are a nasty man in your behaviour towards me.

 

[OzSpen]

ewq,

Ever heard of creation out of nothing?

That's exactly what you have done with your inventions in this post.

You have distorted the meaning of imago dei (image of God) and you want me to think you know what you are talking about. Forget it!

Bye, bye.

Oz

Does the Father have a body? Yes:

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping
thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


Two words are used:

Gen_1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


There is no need to debate who the "we" are here but it definitely included God the Father and someone or more than one someone. Most believe it includes Angels so let's use that to simplify things.

image
H6754
???
tselem
tseh'-lem
From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.


The underlined is not particularly important since that is the definition of this word's root word but the rest of the text is this words actual definition. Here we see that essentially the "figure" of something is is a physical representation of the original. It would be akin to a boy being extra tall like his father and maybe grandfather. That boy would be the "figure" of his male relative in a physical sense. Angels have the basic head, two arms and legs and torso...the basic "human" type design. God the Father has been seen and described in the scriptures and has the same physical design. It is then clear he used his own form, whether a permanent or a temporary form, as a pattern for much of his creations ie: Angels and Mankind.

likeness
H1823
??????
demu^th
dem-ooth'
From H1819; resemblance; concretely model, shape; adverbially like: - fashion, like (-ness, as), manner, similitude.


And this word has the same basic meaning as well.


So, if our physical image is after God's then we should not be surprised that the Father also has a body, as does his Son and Angels etc.



Gen 5:3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:


Here we see the same exact words and wording. The meaning is exactly the same: someone who physically resembled their parent.


Gill









Here are some scriptures which show that the Father does have hands and arms and a head and hair....and....well you get the idea...he is not a spirit according to what Christ said, "a spirit hath not flesh and bones"

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hair or clothes, but the Father does.

Clarke:





Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands, but the Father does.


See, there is this view, as seen in the above scriptures and then there is another view that holds the Father is nothing more than "a bodiless spirit". This view would then suggest when we stand before God in heaven, there's only going to be one person there who is God. In my opinion this view of God is inaccurate and contradicts a great deal of scriptures.

I fully believe Jesus will be there as well as his Father and we will see the both of them just as we see in the above scriptures.


Gen 3:8 And they heard the sound of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.


Adam and Eve could HEAR the sound of God walking! Does a bodiless spirit walk? Does a bodiless spirit make a sound when "walking"?


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" nor does a spirit make walking sounds while walking.


Gen 32:24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
Gen 32:25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him.
Gen 32:26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Gen 32:27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.
Gen 32:29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there.
Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.

Here Jacob not only wrestles with God physically, he also was allowed to see His face and live.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't arms and hands and a face and certainly couldn't physically wrestle a human being, but the Father does and did.

Gill:





(note: M.H. here believe this is Jesus Christ not the Father but the basic concept is still the same, God in a physical form. I believe it was the Father.)

Mathew Henry:




Barnes:







Act 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Act 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.


Stephen was full of the Holy Spirit and he was able to see what normally is not visible to us. He saw Jesus standing next to the Father. He saw two individuals, the same two we can see in many other scriptures. It is incorrect to erase the Father from all these scriptures and replace him with Jesus alone as a real visible "person".

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" yet Stephen actually saw his body, recognizing the Father visually as well as the Son.


1 Kings 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

Many have seen God, the LORD, literally sitting on a literal throne. That is simply because God has a literal body and form and sits upon a literal throne.


2Pet 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

The Father not only has a real body just as Christ does, but he is also fully capable of speaking audibly even though Christ is the Word of God. That doesn't mean the Father cannot speak for himself.



Exo_31:18 And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Deu_9:10 And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have fingers, but the Father does.


Exo 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
Exo 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
Exo 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
Exo 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.


Here we see that he does have a face, has a hand, and has "back parts" of a body. Moses was not allowed to see his face, but he saw his hand and saw his "back parts".


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a face, and a hand, and "back parts", but the Father does.


Exo 24:9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
Exo 24:11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have a visible body with feet, but the Father does.

Gill:




Clarke:




Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Joh 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.
Joh 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
Joh 5:21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
Joh 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:
Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
Joh 5:32 There is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true.
Joh 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
Joh 5:34 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
Joh 5:35 He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
Joh 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
Joh 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.


Jesus said to the Jews that they have never heard the voice of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no voice? No. The Jews simply had never heard the Father's voice.

Jesus said to the Jews that they have never seen the shape of the Father. Does that mean the Father has no shape? No. The Jews simply had never seen the Father's shape.

This proves that the Father does in fact have a voice and a shape which is testified in many scriptures as truth.


Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Here God is in physical form and literally has a book in his right hand, which is attached to his right arm. Here we see the literal right arm as well as the figurative right arm, Jesus.

"a spirit hath not flesh and bones" and they don't have hands or arms, but the Father does.

 

[ewq1938]

ewq,

Ever heard of creation out of nothing?

Ever heard of avoiding a post? That's what you have done, but you had no choice in light of multiple scriptures that disprove your personal belief about God. The weight of the truth of the scriptures is on my side because I have studied this a long time and in depth to find the truth. I admit it was easy for me because I had no preconceived beliefs to defend or overcome regarding this issue.

 

[StanJ]

You are a nasty man in your behaviour towards me.

That is Zeke...pompous and nasty.

 

[StanJ]

The point was the personality originates from the spirit and soul. Again, a person is composed of three things, body soul and spirit. The Holy Spirit doesn't qualify for personhood. A spirit does not have a body (no flesh or bones) according to Christ, who was and is a complete person having body soul and spirit after the resurrection. So, it is the Holy Spirit not the Holy Person.

When we die and go to heaven, we shall see two persons that are our God, the Father and the Son. There will not be a third person standing or sitting there as God.

Oh, that was your point? No wonder I didn't get it.
Your narrow use of person is your problem. There is more than just one connotation for the word and using it with only YOUR accepted connotation just makes your view narrow and ununiformed, or unwilling to be informed.
God is a triune being and as such HAS Spirit, Soul, and Body, to use your words.
We don't go to heaven when we die, so this shows another uninformed POV on your part. We won't ever SEE God the Father until He inhabits the NEW Jerusalem. Nobody has EVER seen God. All men have seen is the physical manifestation of God, until Jesus was born, who is the incarnation of God. The Holy Spirit has the same status as Jesus did on earth, He is an advocate and He is the one that replaced Jesus in the Kingdom of Heaven.
ALL of this is Christianity 101, so apparently you never learned the basics, and as such it would be impossible to have an informed discussion with one who doesn't even know the basics. You would do well to heed Oz and others here who actually KNOW God.