The Nicene Creed is not Christian

[Barrd]

I would like to read it. I am a male but have a different take on that woman and that entire situation. A different thread?

I suppose I could post it in a different thread so that anyone who was interested might read it.
Give me a couple of minutes and I will do that for you.

 

[Barrd]

Okay...done.
You can find the story in the "Christian Entertainment Forum".
The title is "Caught In The Act".
Please let me know what you think...

Oh, yeah...almost forgot.
Here's the link:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21748-caught-in-the-act-by-request/#entry255696

 

[ewq1938]

Okay...done.
You can find the story in the "Christian Entertainment Forum".
The title is "Caught In The Act".
Please let me know what you think...

Oh, yeah...almost forgot.
Here's the link:

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21748-caught-in-the-act-by-request/#entry255696

I guess I expected a twist in it. I actually believe she was innocent of the charge, whether falsely accused or part of a staged set up to trick Jesus into making the wrong judgment.

 

[Barrd]

I guess I expected a twist in it. I actually believe she was innocent of the charge, whether falsely accused or part of a staged set up to trick Jesus into making the wrong judgment.

She may have been, for all I know.
My story is nothing more than a work of fiction. I don't have any more "inside information" than anyone else.
But the absence of the man involved always bothered me. I do suspect that the whole thing was a set up. A lonely housewife, a handsome stranger, an angry priesthood...and the rest is, as they say, history...

 

[Butch5]

@butch5

Prove that it refers to water baptism. Otherwise, read my previous post. #45

Look at the beliefs of those who wrote it. I read your post 45, it seems to be an opinion. I don't think it can be supported from Scripture.

 

[Barrd]

So, if water baptism saves us, when, exactly, are our sins forgiven?
Is it during the baptism ritual? When the person contacts the water? When the person doing the baptism says the words "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or whatever he's going to say?
And just how does this work?

See, I had always thought that forgiveness of sin was a heart thing between the sinner and God, and has very little to do with getting wet.
Unless the person truly repents from his heart, there isn't enough water on the planet to wash away his sins.
And if he does truly repent from his heart, then is baptism truly necessary?
Isn't baptism, after all, the answer of a good conscience to God?

 

[ewq1938]

So, if water baptism saves us, when, exactly, are our sins forgiven?

Baptism doesn't "save" it simply removes sins. Getting saved is more than this. It was a physical representation of how God removes sins from people....soon Christ would die and leave this world yet he would still be able to forgive sins. In his life, he forgave sins in person (before dying on the cross mind you) but after leaving he can forgive sins remotely when we repent, when we are baptised, when we show charity, when we help someone convert to Christianity. I say Amen! Who else joins me??

 

[Wormwood]

I know I am late to the conversation, but I thought I might weigh in. I do believe that the Scriptures teach that baptism in water is the moment forgiveness and the reception of the Holy Spirit take place. I think this teaching is overwhelming in the NT and was believed throughout the history of the church (although the persons eligible for baptism the church unfortunately redefined at an early date due to some errant theology IMO) until Zwingli proclaimed baptism to be a "work" ex nihilo. This is never how baptism was understood throughout history or in the Scriptures. Rather, faith and baptism are pictured as the antithesis of works in the NT.

Peter clearly states in Acts 2 that the response (clearly from believing Jews) to the Gospel (what shall we do to be saved) was repentance and baptism. Baptism and repentance are put on equal footing here and the Greek clearly indicates that these are "for the purpose of" forgiveness of sins and receiving the Holy Spirit. Peter declares that this promise is "for you and your children and all who are far off." Obviously belief is implied. We wouldn't for a moment suggest that baptism apart from belief has any value.

I wont go through all the scriptures in this post, but the fact is, nowhere is baptism called merely a "symbol." It is never indicated that baptism is merely a "outward sign of an inward reality." Rather, the language Paul uses is quite the opposite. Paul says things like, "Do you not know that all of us who were baptized in Christ were baptized into his death" (Rom 6:3). And, "For as many of you who were baptized in Christ have put on Christ" (Gal. 3:27). Paul mentions nothing about a symbol or something that had already happened that baptism merely reflected. Rather, he clearly states that these changes occurred IN baptism.

To suggest that the baptism Paul is referring to in these passages is "spiritual" and not a physical baptism is completely foreign to what we see in Acts, church history and the basic sense of the Greek language. In fact, in Acts 19, when Paul asks if some men had the Holy Spirit, and they responded they had not heard about the Holy Spirit, Paul's first question is "What baptism were you baptized with?" (cf. Acts 19:3). Clearly, Paul linked the gift of the Holy Spirit with Christian baptism. Moreover, when Annanias calls Paul to be baptized (and we can only assume that Paul believed...seeing as how he was fasting and had just had a personal experience with Jesus) Annanias says, "What are you waiting for? Get up and be baptized and wash your sins away. Calling on his name" (cf. Acts 22:16). Paul's understanding of the risen Christ through the vision seems inadequate to provide a washing of sins. Paul needed to respond and that response was in Christian baptism. Jesus commanded his disciples to baptize in Matt. 28. This would be pretty hard to do if the baptism in mind here was a spiritual act that was separate and entirely unrelated to the physical act.

In sum, I think the Bible is so explicit on the meaning and significance of baptism that one has to really filter the clear sense of pretty much every text on Christian baptism through a preconceived idea to miss it. I think the latter reformers did great damage in this area. Even Luther, the fountainhead of the Reformation, rejected any notion that baptism was a meaningless symbol or a "work" to be distinguished from faith.

 

[Butch5]

So, if water baptism saves us, when, exactly, are our sins forgiven?
Is it during the baptism ritual? When the person contacts the water? When the person doing the baptism says the words "in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" or whatever he's going to say?
And just how does this work?

See, I had always thought that forgiveness of sin was a heart thing between the sinner and God, and has very little to do with getting wet.
Unless the person truly repents from his heart, there isn't enough water on the planet to wash away his sins.
And if he does truly repent from his heart, then is baptism truly necessary?
Isn't baptism, after all, the answer of a good conscience to God?

Baptism is an appeal to God. It's an appeal for the forgiveness of sins. It's the mechanism that God has chosen and the place that He has chosen to meet the sinner who desires to repent and is seeking forgiveness of sins. He could have chosen any place or method He desired. He chose water baptism. If you look through the Scriptures you will see that God has used water over and over and over as an agent of cleansing. He used water to cleanse the world of the wicked in Noah's day. He used water to cleanse Naaman of Leprosy (a symbol of sin). He used water at the pool of Bethesda to cleanse of infirmitites . Paul says that the Israelites were baptized in the Red sea. God could have chosen other method but He didn't, He chose water.

 

[Wormwood]

Good point Butch. I think there is powerful symbolism in it as well. In the beginning, there was they Holy Spirit, the Word and water. This is what caused creation. In Christ, we have the Word, Spirit and water for new creation. Moreover, it is a powerful event that causes the sinner to look back to God's work for them in baptism where he promised to cleanse and give the Holy Spirit as they confessed Christ before others. They can know that God promised to clothe them with Christ, cleanse them, fill them and bring them into his Church in that moment. There is nothing in the NT about a sinners prayer or coming to an altar. We see over and over again the call to repent, confess Christ and be baptized. This is God's clear means of calling people to embrace Christ and was commanded by Jesus himself. I don't understand the resistance to baptism given all the texts and commands on the issue. I think we have some bad theology in this area that tries to turn it into some kind of work that is independent of faith. Faith, repentance and baptism are all part of a package in the NT. If you have faith, you repent. If you have faith, you confess Christ. If you have faith, you are obedient to Christ in baptism. I think it is as simple as that.

 

[Butch5]

Good point Butch. I think there is powerful symbolism in it as well. In the beginning, there was they Holy Spirit, the Word and water. This is what caused creation. In Christ, we have the Word, Spirit and water for new creation. Moreover, it is a powerful event that causes the sinner to look back to God's work for them in baptism where he promised to cleanse and give the Holy Spirit as they confessed Christ before others. They can know that God promised to clothe them with Christ, cleanse them, fill them and bring them into his Church in that moment. There is nothing in the NT about a sinners prayer or coming to an altar. We see over and over again the call to repent, confess Christ and be baptized. This is God's clear means of calling people to embrace Christ and was commanded by Jesus himself. I don't understand the resistance to baptism given all the texts and commands on the issue. I think we have some bad theology in this area that tries to turn it into some kind of work that is independent of faith. Faith, repentance and baptism are all part of a package in the NT. If you have faith, you repent. If you have faith, you confess Christ. If you have faith, you are obedient to Christ in baptism. I think it is as simple as that.

Hi Wormwood,

I agree. I think a lot of the time people reject the idea that baptism saves is because of a misunderstanding about Paul's teaching on works. It seems many people think that baptism constitutes a work and as such reject it on that basis. I would submit that there is a great misunderstanding of the works issue among Protestant denominations.

 

[ewq1938]

Good point Butch. I think there is powerful symbolism in it as well. In the beginning, there was they Holy Spirit, the Word and water. This is what caused creation. In Christ, we have the Word, Spirit and water for new creation.

True. We are conceived, grow and are born in water as well so as part of being born again, baptism involves water as well and we are re-born without sin as we were the first time but the second time due to forgiveness. I don't believe in doctrine of original sin where we inherit Adam's sin in our bodies.

 

[Barrd]

None of this answers my question.
When, exactly, are sins "washed away" in baptism?
At what point, during this ritual, does the person become clean?

And after he's been baptized, how is it that he still "slips up" every now and then? Or are you saying that, once a person has been baptized, he has no more sin?
Does he need to get re-washed every time?

 

[ewq1938]

None of this answers my question.
When, exactly, are sins "washed away" in baptism? At what point, during this ritual, does the person become clean?

Immediately. The water is a metaphor about sin being washed from them but they have to understand that they are wanting their sins to be cleansed through this act. They also need to know they are being symbolically re-born (born again) and they have to understand they are accepting Christ as their saviour and that after baptism they need only to repent of sins not continue to use water for forgiveness.

And after he's been baptized, how is it that he still "slips up" every now and then? Or are you saying that, once a person has been baptized, he has no more sin?

Everyone sins, some more often than others. We have to try our best not to and repent when we fail.

Does he need to get re-washed every time?

No water is a one time thing.

 

[Butch5]

None of this answers my question.
When, exactly, are sins "washed away" in baptism?
At what point, during this ritual, does the person become clean?

And after he's been baptized, how is it that he still "slips up" every now and then? Or are you saying that, once a person has been baptized, he has no more sin?
Does he need to get re-washed every time?

Actually, these questions are not relevant as to whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. However, to answer them, we are not told at what point one's sins are forgiven in baptism. When one is baptized he is forgiven for his past sins.

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Pet. 1:4-9 KJV)

When one sins after baptism they must confess their sins.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 Jn. 1:8-9 KJV)

 

[ewq1938]

Actually, these questions are not relevant as to whether or not baptism is necessary for salvation. However, to answer them, we are not told at what point one's sins are forgiven in baptism. When one is baptized he is forgiven for his past sins.

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (2 Pet. 1:4-9 KJV)

When one sins after baptism they must confess their sins.


8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 Jn. 1:8-9 KJV)

I agree...nice work!

 

[Barrd]

Much more important than water, is the interaction of the new believer's heart with the great Heart of God.
Unless there is a change on the inside, it isn't going to matter a fig how wet someone gets on the outside.
It is that inward baptism...that baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire...(and no, I'm not referring to gibbering in "tongues" or to being "slain in the spirit).
There is One Lord...One Faith...and One Baptism.
Why would someone who is still in their sin even want to be baptized anyhow?

Jesus was baptized. He came to the place where John was baptizing in the Jordan. John seemed a bit reluctant at first, but Jesus prevailed:

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Sufferit to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I like what Jesus says here. He was baptized in order to "fulfill all righteousness". Obviously, He had no sins that needed washing away...but something amazing did happen:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

But it is what happens next that drives me to my knees.
Jesus goes out into the wilderness to confront the Enemy...

Because He showed me the way, I was also baptized...and was raised to New Life.
Which is what baptism is really all about.
You will always have sins that need to be forgiven. The water cannot wash them away.
What it can do is to give you New Life in Christ. You will still be tempted, and you will still sin. But now you have the power to fight back. You have the Holy Spirit. God is in your corner.

And if God be for us, who can stand against us?

 

[Butch5]

Much more important than water, is the interaction of the new believer's heart with the great Heart of God.
Unless there is a change on the inside, it isn't going to matter a fig how wet someone gets on the outside.
It is that inward baptism...that baptism of the Holy Spirit and fire...(and no, I'm not referring to gibbering in "tongues" or to being "slain in the spirit).
There is One Lord...One Faith...and One Baptism.
Why would someone who is still in their sin even want to be baptized anyhow?

Jesus was baptized. He came to the place where John was baptizing in the Jordan. John seemed a bit reluctant at first, but Jesus prevailed:

Mat 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
Mat 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
Mat 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Sufferit to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I like what Jesus says here. He was baptized in order to "fulfill all righteousness". Obviously, He had no sins that needed washing away...but something amazing did happen:

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased

But it is what happens next that drives me to my knees.
Jesus goes out into the wilderness to confront the Enemy...

Because He showed me the way, I was also baptized...and was raised to New Life.
Which is what baptism is really all about.
You will always have sins that need to be forgiven. The water cannot wash them away.
What it can do is to give you New Life in Christ. You will still be tempted, and you will still sin. But now you have the power to fight back. You have the Holy Spirit. God is in your corner.

And if God be for us, who can stand against us?

I'm not quite seeing your point. I didn't say there was any power in the water. The water is simply where God said to meet Him. Pete explains the process. it is an appeal to God from the heart. The sinner has chosen to believe the Gospel and seeks forgiveness of sins. He goes to the water to meet God for that forgiveness.

That water baptism is necessary to salvation has been taught in the church from the very beginning. It's an odd thing that modern Christians think it can be changed.

 

[Butch5]

I agree...nice work!

This is one doctrine that has much support in Scripture and history. It's odd that some reject it.

 

[Barrd]

I'm not quite seeing your point. I didn't say there was any power in the water. The water is simply where God said to meet Him. Pete explains the process. it is an appeal to God from the heart. The sinner has chosen to believe the Gospel and seeks forgiveness of sins. He goes to the water to meet God for that forgiveness.

That water baptism is necessary to salvation has been taught in the church from the very beginning. It's an odd thing that modern Christians think it can be changed.

You are not seeing my point?
I suppose I shouldn't have expected you to.
It's something you have to experience for yourself, I guess...