The Old Man and The New Man

[marks]

All of us, gazing with unveiled face on the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, as from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2cor 3:18
Peace!

coming back to this, I really love this passage!

But you missed a couple of words . . . We all, with unveiled faces beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed in the same image, out of glory, into glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

An interesting thing in this Philippians passage are the words for work. Work out your own salvation . . . it is God which works in you.

God works in you, this is ergon, or, a work.

Work out your salvation, this is katergadzomai, a compound of kata and a form of ergon.

This is how Thayer describes kata:

2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).

Strong's Greek: 2596. κατά (kata) -- down, against, according to

God is doing a work. And we work according to that. God is working us. We work according to that.

What we see in a mirror . . . us . . . when we see the work God is doing in and through us, this transforms us, because we are seeing Him, as He is conforming us to Christ's image.

We see His glorying coming into our lives, and we become more like Him. When we see His glory through our lives, it is as we are working out what He is working in.

What He is working into us is the will and the ability to do what pleases Him.

So when we are in trouble with temptations, look for the will and the ability to do what pleases Him.

He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. But has provided a way out. That way is our will and ability to please Him. And we don't always know we can, until we are tested, and choose to believe Him, and look for that promised escape.

We will act according to our beliefs.

Much love!

 

[White Dog]

coming back to this, I really love this passage!

But you missed a couple of words . . . We all, with unveiled faces beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed in the same image, out of glory, into glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Galatians 2
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Philippians 2
12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

An interesting thing in this Philippians passage are the words for work. Work out your own salvation . . . it is God which works in you.

God works in you, this is ergon, or, a work.

Work out your salvation, this is katergadzomai, a compound of kata and a form of ergon.

This is how Thayer describes kata:

2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).

Strong's Greek: 2596. κατά (kata) -- down, against, according to

God is doing a work. And we work according to that. God is working us. We work according to that.

What we see in a mirror . . . us . . . when we see the work God is doing in and through us, this transforms us, because we are seeing Him, as He is conforming us to Christ's image.

We see His glorying coming into our lives, and we become more like Him. When we see His glory through our lives, it is as we are working out what He is working in.

What He is working into us is the will and the ability to do what pleases Him.

So when we are in trouble with temptations, look for the will and the ability to do what pleases Him.

He will not allow us to be tempted beyond what we can bear. But has provided a way out. That way is our will and ability to please Him. And we don't always know we can, until we are tested, and choose to believe Him, and look for that promised escape.

We will act according to our beliefs.

Much love!

Marks, very interesting and much needed post. The truth is, as you said, tht if we are children of God, we ARE new creatures. The old us, our adamic nature, died when Christ died. However, even if we know this with our heads, it will not profit us until we do what Paul instructed us to do. And what was that?

We are told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto Him. This is the great lack in the body today. We are content with head knowledge. We know "about" Jesus. But in these last days, God is about to awaken us to who we are and as a result, we will yield ourselves to Him as those who are alive from the dead.

The entirely of the Bible points us to the one thing God is looking for in His people..... faith to believe His promises despite circumstances. As a whole, we have been forgiven, yes. But we have seen little changes in our lives because we have not believed there is a second part of the gospel message..... forgiven AND cleansed.

What is keeping us from believing we are dead and our life is hid with heist in God? We have not come to the point where we truly hate our old carnal self loving nature. And because of this, we have robbed ourselves of truly abiding in Him, where we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

All that is about to change.

blessings,

White Dog

 

[farouk]

Marks, very interesting and much needed post. The truth is, as you said, tht if we are children of God, we ARE new creatures. The old us, our adamic nature, died when Christ died. However, even if we know this with our heads, it will not profit us until we do what Paul instructed us to do. And what was that?

We are told to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto Him. This is the great lack in the body today. We are content with head knowledge. We know "about" Jesus. But in these last days, God is about to awaken us to who we are and as a result, we will yield ourselves to Him as those who are alive from the dead.

The entirely of the Bible points us to the one thing God is looking for in His people..... faith to believe despite circumstances. As a whole, we have been forgiven, yes. But we have seen little changes in our lives because we have not believed there is a second part of the gospel message..... forgiven AND cleansed.

What is keeping us from believing we are dead and our life is hid with heist in God? We have not come to the point where we truly hate our old carnal self loving nature. And because of this, we have robbed ourselves of truly abiding in Him, where we do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

All that is about to change.

blessings,

White Dog

@White Dog Reminds me of 2 Corinthians 5...

 

[Waiting on him]

@White Dog Reminds me of 2 Corinthians 5...

The wife shared this scripture with me the other day

James 1:23-25 KJV
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[farouk]

The wife shared this scripture with me the other day

James 1:23-25 KJV
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

@Waiting on him For my wife and myself also it's a blessing to read the Scriptures together, indeed.

 

[Waiting on him]

@Waiting on him For my wife and myself also it's a blessing to read the Scriptures together, indeed.

It is in fact a blessing, I need to try and work on doing this more often.

 

[charity]

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the Old Man? What is the New Man? And why are believers told to "put of the old man" and to "put on the new man"?

I believe when you are able to answer these questions in keeping with the teaching of the Bible, you will have taken a huge step towards being able to keep this Word.

Much love!

Hi @marks,

The Old Man is the old nature. The New Man is the new nature. We have both indwelling as those who have been born from above. We are told to put off the old man and put on the new man because we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, and walk in newness of life before the Father now, in Christ Jesus, Who is sat at His right hand.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

I don't either.

@Philip James

Myself, I answer this way. The old man is the man born from Adam, sinful, corrupt. The new man is the man born from God, holy, righteous.

To put off the old man is to make the choice to stop allowing the influence of the old adamic creation man over our thoughts and deeds, and to live according to the who we are in Christ.

The more we do this, we see it as sanctification, spending more and more of our lives living the new creation. Not becoming the new creation, because we are already reborn. But learning to stop living like we are the old man, and to live the new man.

Much love!

Hello @marks

I believe that putting off the old man is an act of faith. Reckoning the old man to have died with Christ, and reckoning the new man to be alive unto God. Walking in newness of life before the Father: as though in the world but not of it, for our citizenship is in heaven. It is an attitude of mind and not an act of will.

We are God's workmanship from first to last, for He is the Author and Finisher of our faith. He planted us, and He will water us through His word, and we can bask in His light in the sure knowledge that He will bring us through to full growth and will harvest us at the resurrection.

I read the following extract from a book last night, which has a bearing on this I believe:-

'God's method of securing holiness of life is by 'HOPE'. This hope is set upon a person - Christ (1 John 3:3). It is part of the foundation of true Christian standing to be waiting for God's Son from heaven (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10). Thus, looking for Christ, we are, of necessity, looking to Christ, and are occupied with Christ, and in this manner we are 'conformed to His image.' 'We beholding-as-in-a-mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Lord the Spirit'. (2 Corinthians 3:18). Here is no restless effort, no anxious toiling, no spiritual dissipation, no occupation with 'the ordinances of men,' but occupation of heart with a heavenly object, producing a heavenly character and walk - and this by secret transmutation - without an effort! This is God's one, simple, and, withal, efficacious method for securing the accomplishment of His will in those who believe God as described in Romans 5:12- 8:39, and are thus counted righteous by Him.'​

This is God's way. Christ is made unto us sanctification as well as righteousness (1 Corinthians 1:30).
Man always feels as though he must do something, bring something. Whereas God desires that nothing in our hands we bring, and that we reckon that all is done. For the sacrificial work of Christ on our behalf was all-sufficient. All we need do is rejoice and be exceeding glad. Make melody in our hearts to God, and praise His holy Name, for He has done it all.

Praise God!

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

Hi @marks,

The following index taken from a booklet I have on the two natures in the child of God is useful:-

The names and characteristics of the Old nature:-

1) The Flesh (John 3:6; Romans 8:8; John 6:63; Romans 7:18)
2) The Natural Man (1 Corinthians 2:14)
3) The Old Man (Ephesians 4:22)
4) The Outward Man (2 Corinthians 4:16)
5) The Heart (Jeremiah 17:9; Matthew 15:19)
6) The Carnal Mind (Romans 8:7; Genesis 6:5; Isaiah 55:8;Romans 8:7-8)
7) Sin (Romans 1:16 - 5:11)

* It cannot be changed
* It's end is death
* He that soweth to it reaps corruption.
-----------------

The names and characteristics of the New Nature:-

1) Spirit (John 3:6)
2) Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4)
3) The New Man (Ephesians 4:24; Colossians 3:10) (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15) (Colossians 3:10)
4) The Inward Man (Romans 7:22; 2 Corinthians 4:16; Ephesians 3:16)
5) The Mind (Romans 7:23-25)
6) Pneuma Christou (Romans 8:9)
7) Pneuma Theou (Romans 8:9 7 14)

* It cannot be changed
* Its end is eternal life
* Its issue, rapture and resurrection.
---------------

The conflict between the two natures (Romans 6 - 8

---------------

Our responsibilities as to the Old Nature:-

To reckon that it died with Christ
To reckon it to be dead for Good as well as Evil.
To make no provision for it
To mortify our members (or reckon them dead)

Our responsibilities as to the New Nature:-

To reckon it alive unto God
To walk in newness of Life
To feed and nourish it on the Word of God

Practical conclusions

To ignore the flesh: and deny its claims. Not to seek to cultivate it on the one hand, or to get rid of it on the other.
To starve it. The food that sustains the one will starve the other.
Never to put ourselves under law: or under 'rules of daily living'
To remember the distinction between 'Religion' and Christianity.

Hope this is helpful to someone.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Taken]

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the Old Man? What is the New Man? And why are believers told to "put of the old man" and to "put on the new man"?

Old man- Natural Truth
New man- Jesus' Truth

Natural Truth- Individual Logical Guesswork
Jesus' Truth- IS

Why?- cohesiveness among those IN Christ


Glory to God,
Taken

 

[CadyandZoe]

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the Old Man? What is the New Man? And why are believers told to "put of the old man" and to "put on the new man"?

I believe when you are able to answer these questions in keeping with the teaching of the Bible, you will have taken a huge step towards being able to keep this Word.

Much love!

The "old man" represents the individual before his or her conversion experience and his or her dedication to serve Jesus Christ. In verse 22, Paul defines "old man" as "your former life", which was corrupted by lusts and deceit. In verse 17 and 18, The nations walk in darkness and ignorance because of a hardened heart. In verse 19, "having become callous, [they] have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness."

The "new man" in this context is an individual's relationship to Jesus Christ as his follower and disciple. Relationship and loyalty to Jesus Christ superintends all other relationships, motives, and goals. The New man walks in the light, being renewed in his mind, and as a lover of truth, he can not be corrupted by lust.

The idea of "putting on" clothing is figurative language indicating when an individual has committed himself or herself to a particular task or mission. To put on the prophet's mantle, for example, is to act in the role of a prophet, speaking prophetically. To "put on" the new man is to act, work, and live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ and to follow him in all aspects and areas of life.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Ephesians 4
20 But ye have not so learned Christ;
21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

What is the Old Man? What is the New Man? And why are believers told to "put of the old man" and to "put on the new man"?

I believe when you are able to answer these questions in keeping with the teaching of the Bible, you will have taken a huge step towards being able to keep this Word.

Much love!

The Old Man is the carnal sin nature also called the natural man we were born with due to Adam's sin. It is this carnal nature/flesh that must be born again. Being born again is through the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus gives to those who truly repent and want to follow Christ and understand spiritual things.

Romans 8:9 You are not in the flesh (the old man) but in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God indwells you. And those who do not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

1 Corinthians 2:12-14
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

2 Peter 1:2-4
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[marks]

The idea of "putting on" clothing is figurative language indicating when an individual has committed himself or herself to a particular task or mission. To put on the prophet's mantle, for example, is to act in the role of a prophet, speaking prophetically. To "put on" the new man is to act, work, and live according to the teachings of Jesus Christ and to follow him in all aspects and areas of life.

Hi CadyandZoe,

Another example of "putting on",

Isaiah 59
16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.
17 For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

God doesn't change Who He is.

I like your wording, "committed himself . . . to a particular task or mission." That's what God did, 'putting on' the form of a servant.

I think I want to meditate awhile on my putting on the new man, and Jesus putting on human flesh, as it were, and at the same time putting on righteousness, and salvation, and vengeance, and zeal.

Much love!

 

[Joseph77]

footnote: I think it is written that Jesus is Himself , or is becoming, our wisdom, our knowledge, our peace, our joy, our union with the Father (or we are in union, one, with Him and with the Father) , our righteousness, our salvation ("and now He Has Become Our Salvation!" (may be a song, but I think it is found in Scripture) , .... thus as written as we put on Christ, all that is Him is us.

 

[marks]

The wife shared this scripture with me the other day

James 1:23-25 KJV
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: [24] For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. [25] But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

. . . and he forgets what kind of man he is . . .

2 Peter 1
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

We can forget who we are, what God did for us, in making us the new man.

Much love!

 

[Joseph77]

Are we supposed to forget ?

 

[marks]

Hi @marks,

The Old Man is the old nature. The New Man is the new nature. We have both indwelling as those who have been born from above. We are told to put off the old man and put on the new man because we are a new creation in Christ Jesus, and walk in newness of life before the Father now, in Christ Jesus, Who is sat at His right hand.

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

I've been thinking about this idea of "sin nature".

I find Peter references "the divine nature". Other than that, it looks like all the uses of 'phoosis', nature, look like they refer to what is natural, like, in Romans, "doing what is against nature", "grafted contrary to nature", Galatians, "those who are Jews by nature", things like that.

Though I know we often speak of "the sin nature", that's not actually terminology I find in the Bible. That's not the most important thing, of naturally, but it gets me looking deeper.

What I do find is that the Bible speaks in terms of the corruption of the flesh.
"the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceiptful lusts"
"Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds"
"and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"
"in those things they corrupt themselves"

So I think in terms of our flesh having become corrupted, which leads me back to the idea that the flesh we're talking about is our physical body, having been corrupted by sin.

And I can understand this very easily, as we've been able to see the links between the effects of things like childhood abuse, PTST, things like that, and how they cause damage in the brain that leads people to thoughts, emotions, and behaviors they wouldn't have otherwise.

I can see how a similar change in Adam after eating the fruit caused him to know good and evil, which then led to a lifetime of living according to that knowledge. Everything was changed.

God tells us . . . "he has become like us, knowing good and evil". While it was wisdom in the Father, man wasn't capable of taking in that knowledge, and it changed him. And in that particular way.

I don't really think in terms of "both natures indwelling this body", or something like that. I think in terms of a man born from the line of Adam, his physical nature, that which God ordained, corrupted, then further corrupted by the vagaries of life.

And as a child of God, I indwell that man.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Are we supposed to forget ?

No, I think that's the point of the passage in Peter. In remembering that we are a new creation, a new man, God's spirit child, brother to Jesus, we live accordingly.

When we are not living accordingly, that's when we've forgotten we've been cleanse. So we remember our cleansing so that we will live clean lives.

Much love!

 

[Joseph77]

No, I think that's the point of the passage in Peter. In remembering that we are a new creation, a new man, God's spirit child, brother to Jesus, we live accordingly.

When we are not living accordingly, that's when we've forgotten we've been cleanse. So we remember our cleansing so that we will live clean lives.

Much love!

HURRAY ! THANKS for the (expected and hoped for) clarification.

It is those who do not DO what God Says, they are the ones who forget .... in that Scripture.

 

[Joseph77]

(footnote for research: I think every human body that dies sees corruption . (the flesh immediately starts to be corrupted/ decay) ...)

The only exception , Scripturally, Is Jesus' Body.