The old nature and the new

[Prentis]

We all very well know that the old nature cannot please God.

[sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

There is no power in it to fulfill the will of God.... what about the new nature??

 

[Buzzfruit]

We all very well know that the old nature cannot please God.

[sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

There is no power in it to fulfill the will of God.... what about the new nature??

The New Nature can because it is God's Nature that He has imparted to us. Which reminds me, it always amaze me that most Christians believe that the nature that all human beings were born with, they expect the unbeliever to repent through it.

 

[Prentis]

Even when walking in the old nature, God left us a choice, giving us a conscience which allows us to be a law to ourselves. By this, we can learn to discern right and wrong. Within this, man may choose to love, to remain open, and to seek God. Man may still choose to do what is right in this, but he is weak.

The gospel is salvation to this person, because it gives them a way out, if they would believe. Our souls MUST be powered by something. When we only have the old nature, it leaves us no choice. But now we receive a new nature by which we may choose to walk.

[sup]6[/sup] For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [sup]7[/sup] Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. [sup]8[/sup] So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
[sup]9[/sup] But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. [sup]10[/sup] And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [sup]11[/sup] But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (Romans 8)

There is a wind of doctrine today which says the old nature is powerless to please God, which is true, but continues by saying we cannot be free from this while living in mortal bodies. This is a plot of the devil to make men believe the gospel requires no response other than 'sure God, I'll take that'. In other words, it promotes an attitude of taking our lives, rather than giving them, and says the gospel has no power now, whereas the aim of Christ and the apostles was to teach men to enter and walk in the power of the Spirit.

 

[Buzzfruit]

Even when walking in the old nature, God left us a choice, giving us a conscience which allows us to be a law to ourselves. By this, we can learn to discern right and wrong. Within this, man may choose to love, to remain open, and to seek God. Man may still choose to do what is right in this, but he is weak.

But that ability has been distorted by sin…..it cannot be relied on to always know everything that is right and everything that is wrong. Remember, Adam and Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but that does not mean they would always know the difference the two. So to the natural nature some things that are good can seem evil and some things that is evil can appear to be good.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

The new nature has you doing things to please God without understanding why, it holds you responsible to his commandments and his will. It can keep you at peace and help you improve your self through the struggles of everyday life.

 

[Prentis]

But that ability has been distorted by sin…..it cannot be relied on to always know everything that is right and everything that is wrong. Remember, Adam and Eve partook of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but that does not mean they would always know the difference the two. So to the natural nature some things that are good can seem evil and some things that is evil can appear to be good.

Actually, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't give man discernment for what is good and what is evil, to the opposite! Eating of this tree means to decide for ourselves what is good, and what is evil. What helps us is good, what doesn't is evil, but this is on a carnal sense. When WE decide what is good and what is evil, we come to conclude that the Lord's chastisement and hard training is evil, and his blessings good, when in reality all are good for us, if we see it!

The ability has been distorted by sin, because sin has brought death and made it weak. But man is not condemned for being weak. Man will be condemned IF he doesn't use whatever strength is available to him. Thus even in the old nature, by faith, man may please God to a degree.

After all, the OT saints did not have the new nature... And yet they pleased him!

It is a modern doctrine which says that somehow man has not even the power to choose. The publican is weak, but justified because he recognizes his own weakness and doesn't blame others for his failure, but sees it and is broken.

If we are to know the perfect will of God, we must surrender fully to him, and be just as he is. But to whatever level we have faith, to that level we must walk. Some have much grace (power) to be as he is, and some more. It is our faithfulness in this that reveals our hearts and characters, and by which we are judged.

 

[Buzzfruit]

Actually, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil doesn't give man discernment for what is good and what is evil, to the opposite! Eating of this tree means to decide for ourselves what is good, and what is evil. What helps us is good, what doesn't is evil, but this is on a carnal sense. When WE decide what is good and what is evil, we come to conclude that the Lord's chastisement and hard training is evil, and his blessings good, when in reality all are good for us, if we see it!

Genesis 3:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"

The Greek word that is translated into the English word Knowing is yādaʿ and means to know. So it’s not as simple as deciding what is good. Yes, human beings do do that. But that word means to know by experience.....to experience good and evil.

 

[aspen]

Thomas Merton, Thomas Keating, and Richard Rohr write extensively about the False Self and the True Self. Very interesting!

 

[Nomad]

It is a modern doctrine which says that somehow man has not even the power to choose.

Modern? You really should do your homework before making such a ridiculous statement. The doctrine of Total Inability is easily traced back through Church history to Scripture itself.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."

The publican is weak, but justified because he recognizes his own weakness and doesn't blame others for his failure, but sees it and is broken.

How did such a man come to have faith Prentis? The Bible is painfully clear on this.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake. . .

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

 

[Prentis]

Genesis 3:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup]Then the Lord God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever—"

The Greek word that is translated into the English word Knowing is yādaʿ and means to know. So it’s not as simple as deciding what is good. Yes, human beings do do that. But that word means to know by experience.....to experience good and evil.

Yes, but the word evil in Hebrew means 'sore' or 'trouble' (strongs), and the word good means 'welfare'. Man has known trouble and welfare, because of this. Man has chosen the hard path. This is akin to Paul saying that he has learned to be content with much and with little, with welfare, and with trouble. He considers all those things to be good, because they are used by God for his own good.

In choosing the tree of good and evil, WE choose what is good. Why? Because God said it was not good to eat of this tree, but we have decided (or been convinced by the enemy) that it is GOOD. So eating of this tree is choosing for ourselves what is right, and what is wrong. It does not give one understanding of right and wrong ACCORDING TO GOD. Rather it gives one to taste both welfare and trouble, AND to choose his own definition of good and evil, thus being in rebellion to God, rather than surrender.

The good and evil learned is NOT that of God.

 

[Prentis]

Modern? You really should do your homework before making such a ridiculous statement. The doctrine of Total Inability is easily traced back through Church history to Scripture itself.

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

Joh 6:64 But there are some of you who do not believe." (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)
Joh 6:65 And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."




How did such a man come to have faith Prentis? The Bible is painfully clear on this.

Php 1:29 For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake. . .

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Again, as I have explained, because of our fallen nature, we have a total inability to be righteous as God is and to be perfect as he is. That is why we have the new nature, that ALL righteousness might be fulfilled.

But placed in a sinful nature, man can still choose to live his neighbour, as the good Samaritan does.

Those are two very different things that are too often confuse, because men do not understand that holiness is built ON righteousness, or in other words, the righteousness of Christ is built on the righteousness of the law, which is to do right in the power we have. The righteousness of Christ is to do right in HIS power.

 

[Nomad]

Again, as I have explained, because of our fallen nature, we have a total inability to be righteous as God is and to be perfect as he is.

First, that's not the doctrine of Total Inability. I think you already know that. Second, you and I both know that my post was addressing a statement you made that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic of your reply quoted above. You said:

It is a modern doctrine which says that somehow man has not even the power to choose. The publican is weak, but justified because he recognizes his own weakness and doesn't blame others for his failure, but sees it and is broken.

I responded to the statement above, not to the idea that we cannot be as righteous and perfect as God, which is absurd on its face.

 

[Prentis]

What I am saying is this, we cannot be righteous as God, but we can be righteous on the level of men... Now just watch all the evangelicals freak out!

The first righteousness comes by honesty and being just. That means to be honest enough to see our wrongs, give others the benefit of the doubt, and when we can lose something to help someone else, we do.

This IS righteous.

But not righteous as God.

It is untrue that man cannot be righteous unless he is walking by the power of God, and that none is righteous according to the righteousness of men. It IS true that none is righteous as God... But we CAN walk by the righteousness of Christ now, by the new nature!

 

[aspen]

What I am saying is this, we cannot be righteous as God, but we can be righteous on the level of men... Now just watch all the evangelicals freak out!

The first righteousness comes by honesty and being just. That means to be honest enough to see our wrongs, give others the benefit of the doubt, and when we can lose something to help someone else, we do.

This IS righteous.

But not righteous as God.

It is untrue that man cannot be righteous unless he is walking by the power of God, and that none is righteous according to the righteousness of men. It IS true that none is righteous as God... But we CAN walk by the righteousness of Christ now, by the new nature!

Hmm...what is the use of being righteous in relationship to man? Seems to me that righteousness has only one standard - God

 

[Prentis]

Hmm...what is the use of being righteous in relationship to man? Seems to me that righteousness has only one standard - God

We cannot know God, who we do not see, apart from his being revealed to us... But we can do at least the minimum, which is to love our neighbor, who we see.

The man like this is in no way self righteous. He doesn't realize he does what is right, but simply loves, like the good Samaritan. He is not self righteous, and he is also honest, like the publican, who admits his faults. This is a righteous man.

Honesty is the first step.

But he does not walk in power and do the works of the Father. That is not held against him because he doesn't even know the Father! Sodom and Gomorrha will condemn cities visited by Christ when judgment day comes, why? Because those cities had a visitation from God, and are held to a higher standard than Sodom.

So we see that to whom much is given, much is expected, but he who is faithful in little things is still counted faithful. Thus we are not accepted according to how much we receive, but what we do with it.

 

[aspen]

We cannot know God, who we do not see, apart from his being revealed to us... But we can do at least the minimum, which is to love our neighbor, who we see.

The man like this is in no way self righteous. He doesn't realize he does what is right, but simply loves, like the good Samaritan. He is not self righteous, and he is also honest, like the publican, who admits his faults. This is a righteous man.

Honesty is the first step.

But he does not walk in power and do the works of the Father. That is not held against him because he doesn't even know the Father! Sodom and Gomorrha will condemn cities visited by Christ when judgment day comes, why? Because those cities had a visitation from God, and are held to a higher standard than Sodom.

So we see that to whom much is given, much is expected, but he who is faithful in little things is still counted faithful. Thus we are not accepted according to how much we receive, but what we do with it.

I do not believe we can be selfless (no matter what behavior we are displaying) without God revealing Himself in our lives. We need to know Him, mind (Bible, spiritual reading), heart (prayer, meditation, contemplation), and will (service - loving others through action) or all our works are in vain (ultimately selfish).

 

[Prentis]

I do not believe we can be selfless (no matter what behavior we are displaying) without God revealing Himself in our lives. We need to know Him, mind (Bible, spiritual reading), heart (prayer, meditation, contemplation), and will (service - loving others through action) or all our works are in vain (ultimately selfish).

Who are we to judge the heart of a good Samaritan, who has never received a revelation of who God is?

A man may honestly be loving, without knowing God. Can God only affect those who know his name, or can he affect one also who knows him not, and save him so, if he seems in him a love and a gentleness?

The scriptures, teaching, etc, helps greatly, and is good to teach men unto righteousness.

But we have been called to an even higher righteousness, that of Christ, which can only be built on the first, and comes only by the power of God.

 

[Nomad]

A man may honestly be loving, without knowing God. Can God only affect those who know his name, or can he affect one also who knows him not, and save him so, if he seems in him a love and a gentleness?

So God saves based on some goodness he sees in the individual he saves?

 

[aspen]

Who are we to judge the heart of a good Samaritan, who has never received a revelation of who God is?

A man may honestly be loving, without knowing God. Can God only affect those who know his name, or can he affect one also who knows him not, and save him so, if he seems in him a love and a gentleness?

The scriptures, teaching, etc, helps greatly, and is good to teach men unto righteousness.

But we have been called to an even higher righteousness, that of Christ, which can only be built on the first, and comes only by the power of God.

Who said the good Samaritan has not received a revelation from God? Jesus used the Good Samaritan as an example to shock His Jewish listeners. God can work in the hearts of anyone He chooses.

There is only one standard for righteousness - God.

 

[Prentis]

Who said the good Samaritan has not received a revelation from God? Jesus used the Good Samaritan as an example to shock His Jewish listeners. God can work in the hearts of anyone He chooses.

There is only one standard for righteousness - God.

Must God reveal his name to do this working in man? Again, I am not talking about walking as Christ, but about the first level of righteousness.

[sup]31[/sup] “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[sup][c][/sup] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. [sup]32[/sup] All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. [sup]33[/sup] And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. [sup]34[/sup] Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: [sup]35[/sup] for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; [sup]36[/sup] I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
[sup]37[/sup] “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? [sup]38[/sup] When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? [sup]39[/sup] Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ [sup]40[/sup] And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

These are not Christian. A Christian knows who his brother is, and knows the Lord, and knows to serve him. But these loved, and therefore fulfilled the law.