The One Baptism

[Charlie24]

Myself, I don't find this confusing, I find it very simple, and these things are all simply stated in the Bible. I just believe what these say, and they all seem to fit together.

Much love!

It's very confusing to those who have no idea what we are talking about.

My view is their view, my purpose is for them to understand, not those who already understand.

I want everyone to understand! At least to know what we believe whether they accept it or not.

It will move slow, with plenty of discussion, which is good.

 

[marks]

Just remember . . . it's the cross of Christ . . . not the washing of water.

Much love!

 

[Charlie24]

Just remember . . . it's the cross of Christ . . . not the washing of water.

Much love!

I'm definitely with you on that! I'm sorry you had any other thought.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Before we explain the One Baptism, let's familiarize with the word "Baptism" as found throughout the Scripture.

First, one must realize that the word "Baptism" is not always referring to water! A clear example of this is found in Matt. 3:11 from John the Baptist.

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"

John makes a clear distinction of water baptism, and the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Second, there are two words used for "Baptism" in the Greek. they are, "baptizo" and "baptizma," the first is used as a verb, the second is used as a noun. A clear example of this is found in Matt. 3:5-7,

"5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,

6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?"

In vs. 6, in the bold is "baptizo" the verb, the act of being baptized.

In vs. 7, in the bold is "baptisma" is the noun, the baptism as a thing.

The word "Baptism" is used in Scripture as including the "spiritual baptism" and the "water baptism." There is no reference to separate these baptisms. The only distinction is the use of a verb or a noun. Do you understand this?

It is imperative that you understand the only way to discern between the spiritual and water baptisms found in Scripture is by the context of the Scripture!

Here lies the entire problem of the word "Baptism" as we read it in Scripture! Simply put, some are not making that distinction between the spiritual and water baptisms.

This is what I intend to explore, but I can't in one post, as you can see! So what I will do is give you time to let this sink in, (for the sake of the dreaded long posts) and then come back tomorrow and resume this long road with many intersections!

Hi,

----F.F. Bruce: "baptism in the New Testament is always baptism in water unless the context shows it to be something else; that is to say, the word is always to be understood literally unless the context indicates a figurative meaning". (Questions Answered, p. 106). Nothing in Eph 4:5 or surrounding context that indicates a figurative meaning to "baptism".

----from Romans 6 and Colossians 2 the one baptism involves a "burial" from which a person is "raised up from" to walk in newness of life.

----from other verses/contexts, the one baptism of the great commission was commanded, administered by disciples (humans), saves and lasts till the end of time (age lasting) which eliminates all other of the baptisms mentioned in the NT. Humans can only adminster water baptism (Acts 8:38; Acts 10:47-48).

----From the context of the Ephesian epistle, we are told those Ephesians were saved by faith and therefore the 'one baptism' of Eph 4:5 would also save:

Eph 2:8---------faith >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
1 Pet 3:21------baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Acts 2:28 ------baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/remission of sins
Acts 22:16 -----be baptized >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves/wash away sins
Mark 16:16 ----baptism >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saves
Jn 3:5---------born of water >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom/saved
Matt 7:21-----do the will of the Father>>>>>>>>>enter the kingdom/saved

Since there is but one way to be saved, then being born again (water baptism) requires DOING the will of God. (note also that "faith" of Eph 2:8 is also "doing the will of God" and not just a mental assent of the mind.)

God has commanded men to be water baptized, therefore those who obediently submit to water baptism are "doing the will of the Father" and enter the kingdom/saved. All the evidence given in the Bible point to the fact the one baptism of Eph 4:5 was commanded and one must do the eill of God to be saved/enter the kingdom, it is water baptism that is administered by humans, how disciples are made (#1 - see below) and is age lasting, all of which eliminate all the various baptisms mentioned in the NT except for Christ's baptism of the great commission (Mt 28:19-20; Mk 16:15-16).

(#1) water baptism is how disciples are made...impossible to be a disciple of Christ, a Christian, apart from water baptism:
What is the Purpose of Baptism? (Part 1) - Apologetics Press

 

[Charlie24]

Moving on toward the Baptism into Christ, I think it would be a good idea to identify the often talked about baptisms associated with the New Testament. There is a passage of Scripture that represents 3 of these baptisms.

Acts 19:1-7
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

7 And all the men were about twelve.

First I would like to point out that these 12 men that Paul met were saved! This is very important to recognize to identify these baptisms for future reference. Vs. 1 says that Paul found certain "disciples," these men were saved but were deficient in understanding.

Also we see from this passage that they had been baptized with John's water baptism, that was all they appeared to know. This gives credit to John's baptism of repentance as their source of salvation. Repenting and looking for the coming Christ in faith. In other words, if followed correctly in repenting and faith in the coming Christ, they were saved. This is the same way the OT saints were saved. If they were indeed baptized by John, the Law of Moses was still in effect. Christ had not yet paid the price of mans sin, and He had not yet been glorified.

John 7:37-39
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"

Not only did Christ have to pay the sin debt of man for us to receive the indwelling Spirit but Christ had to be glorified also. This is speaking of His glorified body in which He rose from the dead. This is another thread for another day.

It also appears that someway Paul knew these men were saved but lacked knowledge that the age of the Spirit had come. Paul directly asked them if they had received the Holy Spirit since they believed, he didn't ask if they were saved. It is stated that they had no knowledge of the Holy Spirit.

The question Paul asked them is concerning the baptism of the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in other tongues, which is biblical and made famous by the Pentecostal movement. Whether that baptism is still in effect today is not our concern in this thread! We see in Vs. 6 that Paul accomplished what he set out to do when he laid hands on them and they received The baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in other tongues.

It is also important to know that John's baptism was not the same as believers baptism, where they were baptized in the name of the Lord in vs. 5. John's baptism was unto repentance, looking for the soon coming Christ as John told them, the believers baptism is because of repentance, past tense.

This is proven in the fact that these men were already saved, and without believers baptism. After Paul had given them the knowledge of the age of the Holy Spirit and explained John's baptism, Paul had them baptized in the name of the Lord, which is the believers baptism. And then he laid hands on them and they were baptized in the Holy Spirit. It must be recognized and we will cover it later, that receiving the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues is not the same as receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit. Although they can biblically be given at the same time. We will discuss that!

This post is already lengthy and next I will go into the biblical purpose of what the Pentecostals call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Where they took it from in Scripture, some history of that movement, and the problem I have with my Pentecostal friends.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

This post is already lengthy and next I will go into the biblical purpose of what the Pentecostals call the baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Precious friend:
Are you not "baking a cake" Without the "initial basic ingredients" in the
right order?

We can't bake a cake by first placing the empty pan in the oven!

i.e.:

1) What Is God's Purpose for water baptism?

2) What Is God's Purpose for "baptism WITH The Holy Spirit"??

3) What Is God's Purpose for "The ONE Baptism BY The Holy Spirit???

After a "good class Or lesson," Only Then can we determine
God's ONE Baptism, for us, The Body Of Christ, Today, Correct?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided...

 

[Charlie24]

Precious friend:
Are you not "baking a cake" Without the "initial basic ingredients" in the
right order?

i.e.:

1) What Is God's Purpose for water baptism?

2) What Is God's Purpose for "baptism WITH The Holy Spirit"??

3) What Is God's Purpose for "The ONE Baptism BY The Holy Spirit???

After a "good class Or lesson," Only Then can we determine
God's ONE Baptism, for us, The Body Of Christ, Today, Correct?

Grace, Peace, And JOY In God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided...

You are exactly right! For the sake of those who are not familiar with this subject I want to identify the baptisms.

When we come the the "baptism into Christ" we will have a firm understanding of John's statement, I indeed baptize with water, but one comes after me, who will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire.

There is much confusion in what John was speaking of here. I want the baptisms understood in order to explain what John meant by that statement.

I know it's to slow for those with your understanding, but we have to remember there are many who don't have your understanding.

It will all come together in the end!

 

[Enoch111]

At the same time it is notable that Water Baptism was downplayed, as well, by both Jesus and Paul.

This is completely false. Check the Bible record.

CHRIST "DOWNPLAYING" WATER BAPTISM
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Mt 28:19)

PAUL "DOWNPLAYING" WATER BAPTISM
And he [the jailer] took them the same hour of the night [around midnight], and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. (Acts 16:33)

 

[Taken]

Just remember . . . it's the cross of Christ . . . not the washing of water.

Much love!

Yes. Water does NOT SAVE a man.

John the Baptist himself, said: Matt 3:

Repentance (Which a man SHOULD KNOW, IS: FOR HAVING NOT BELIEVED) is the “PREPARATION” necessary to occur....BEFORE the Lord Baptizes a man “WITH the Holy Spirit OF God”.

God “requires”, The mans WORD of a Heartful Confession, OF Repentance AND Belief.

An ACT of “WATER” Baptism;
IS not for the individual, to KNOW the man is repentant.
IS not for God, to KNOW a man is repentant.
IS...for onlooking men, to HAVE a sense of Belief the man is repentant.

Jesus IS manKINDS “example”.
Was Jesus SINFUL? No.
Did Jesus’ Water Baptism, Reveal He was Repenting of His Sin? No.
Did sinless Jesus, need, to be Baptized IN WATER? No.

WHY was Jesus WAS Baptized IN Water?
1) Fulfill Prophecy, of John the Baptist.
2) Fulfill Prophecy, of the Angel who visited Mary.

What prophecy was given Mary?

Luke 1:
[35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The day of Jesus’ birth, He was called, the Son of man.
The day of Jesus’ WATER Baptism, He was called; Begotten OF God;
Son of God.

Pss.2
[7] I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Acts.13
[33] God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
Heb.1
[5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Heb.5
[5] So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee.

Jesus IS manKINDS Example.
Every man WHO willingly BY his OWN WORD, repents (for having NOT Believed), and willingly By his OWN WORD of his Heart’s Thoughts, CONFESSES His Belief......THEREAFTER BY Gods Word and Power:

God SHALL BE to the man A FATHER, and man SHALL BE TO God, A SON.

Water is a mans Outward showing of his “preparation” to BECOME a son of God.

Fact is: Washing IS for Forgiveness.
The Lord God Himself, WASHES a repentant and Forgiven man;
WITH the Lords BLOOD. (Not water).

Rev 1:
[5] And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[mailmandan]

Ephesians 4:5 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Ephesians 4:5 - There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 Corinthians 12:13 - For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Can't argue with the Simplicity Of God...

...Of course, the study of His Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided is another matter, eh?

Grace, Peace, And JOY in Him!

 

[Randy Kluth]

This is completely false. Check the Bible record.

CHRIST "DOWNPLAYING" WATER BAPTISM
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: (Mt 28:19)

PAUL "DOWNPLAYING" WATER BAPTISM
And he [the jailer] took them the same hour of the night [around midnight], and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. (Acts 16:33)

It certainly wasn't made a matter of salvation, such as people often think Peter was saying. What Peter was actually saying was that baptism symbolized our salvation, ie "baptism saves you" in that it shows you not a water cleansing but a picture of Christ's cleansing. Peter uses the figure of baptism to express salvation through Christ.

Matt 3.11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Holy Spirit Baptism is made central, while Water Baptism is downplayed.

John 4.1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

The focus here is water baptism apart from Jesus himself doing it, indicating it is not a part of his salvation.

1 Cor 1.13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is making what water baptism represents as more important than water baptism, namely being baptized into the name of Christ, or simply being spiritually baptized into Christ.

1 Peter 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Again, this oft-quoted passage used to "prove" salvation comes through water baptism is actually deemphasizing the symbol in place of the reality, which is the resurrection of Christ.

You may or may not see water baptism deemphasized in the verses above. I do. If we overly emphasize sacraments and religious rituals in our salvation, we run the risk of promoting Legalism. And according to Paul we are saved strictly by faith in Christ, whose works alone redeemed us from sin.

 

[Behold]

"baptism saves you" in that it shows you not a water cleansing but a picture of Christ's cleansing.

Christ is the living Water, and He is the WORD made flesh and He is the Bread of Life.....
The Born again are regenerated by the washing of the word, and the WORD is the living water who is Christ.....
Jesus said : the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life....
That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse the believers with the washing of water by the word.....and Jesus is the Word.

All this is mystical symbolic and the "cult of mary" and the Jehovah's Witness situation and some other's who are similar, read those verses and teach them literally, not discerning the symbolism, not understanding the context.
This is why the Catholic Church "cult of mary" is so water fanatical., to the point they they teach that the WATER washes away your sin, when in Fact its the BLOOD of JESUS that is the sin cleansing redemption. ...= The Blood Atonement.

 

[Charlie24]

It certainly wasn't made a matter of salvation, such as people often think Peter was saying. What Peter was actually saying was that baptism symbolized our salvation, ie "baptism saves you" in that it shows you not a water cleansing but a picture of Christ's cleansing. Peter uses the figure of baptism to express salvation through Christ.

Matt 3.11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Holy Spirit Baptism is made central, while Water Baptism is downplayed.

John 4.1 Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— 2 although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples.

The focus here is water baptism apart from Jesus himself doing it, indicating it is not a part of his salvation.

1 Cor 1.13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

Paul is making what water baptism represents as more important than water baptism, namely being baptized into the name of Christ, or simply being spiritually baptized into Christ.

1 Peter 3.21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Again, this oft-quoted passage used to "prove" salvation comes through water baptism is actually deemphasizing the symbol in place of the reality, which is the resurrection of Christ.

You may or may not see water baptism deemphasized in the verses above. I do. If we overly emphasize sacraments and religious rituals in our salvation, we run the risk of promoting Legalism. And according to Paul we are saved strictly by faith in Christ, whose works alone redeemed us from sin.

Praise God someone sees it! You're dead on the money Randy!

I have another post to go before I introduce the "Baptism into Christ." I will have much detail comparing the "Baptism into Christ" with the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." This is why I want the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit understood before I go there.

When I begin to explain the "Baptism into Christ" I would very much like your feedback! I hope we can work together on this to make it understood. I see you have a very good understanding of what I want to present.

I look forward to your input! No doubt you can add something I may not bring to light. So when I get there and explain, let me know how you see it. We may see it somewhat differently, but no doubt we are on the same page with this!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Christ is the living Water, and He is the WORD made flesh and He is the Bread of Life.....
The Born again are regenerated by the washing of the word, and the WORD is the living water who is Christ.....
Jesus said : the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life....
That Jesus might sanctify and cleanse the believers with the washing of water by the word.....and Jesus is the Word.

All this is mystical symbolic and the "cult of mary" and the Jehovah's Witness situation and some other's who are similar, read those verses and teach them literally, not discerning the symbolism, not understanding the context.
This is why the Catholic Church "cult of mary" is so water fanatical., to the point they they teach that the WATER washes away your sin, when in Fact its the BLOOD of JESUS that is the sin cleansing redemption. ...= The Blood Atonement.

Very well said! We can expect that with any large Christian movement within a State there are many who only understand the externals of spiritual Christianity. They therefore view Communion, Baptism, and other things in extremely literal ways, not recognizing the spiritual insinuations involved. I'm not surprised the RCC retained the most banal prescription for these religious formulations. You're right. There's no mystical transformation from bread that symbolizes Christ's flesh into Christ's real flesh!

 

[Randy Kluth]

Praise God someone sees it! You're dead on the money Randy!

I have another post to go before I introduce the "Baptism into Christ." I will have much detail comparing the "Baptism into Christ" with the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." This is why I want the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit understood before I go there.

When I begin to explain the "Baptism into Christ" I would very much like your feedback! I hope we can work together on this to make it understood. I see you have a very good understanding of what I want to present.

I look forward to your input! No doubt you can add something I may not bring to light. So when I get there and explain, let me know how you see it. We may see it somewhat differently, but no doubt we are on the same page with this!

I enjoy the rare comradery I get whenever I can get it! It's a good subject, and as you've put it, very worthy for Christians to look at, apart from some of the dogmatizing that sometimes takes place. Thank you!

 

[Charlie24]

It's been a few days so I want to quickly recap what we have found.

We found there is a literal water baptism and a spiritual baptism. Also, the word "Baptism" is used for both water and spiritual baptisms and the 2 Greek words for baptism differentiate only the use of a noun or verb. The only way to know whether the baptism is spiritual or literal in water is by the context of Scripture.

I also gave an example of 3 baptisms in one passage of Scripture. Before we move on, let's give a quick definition of these 3 baptisms, in which 2 are literal water baptisms and one spiritual.

1. The baptism of repentance
This is John the Baptist' baptism. It is not the same as the believers baptism, which is called in Scripture, the baptism in the name of the Lord. We seen in Scripture where Paul defined this baptism as a baptism of repentance that John performed and told the people to look for the Messiah, He is now in our midst. This baptism served a special purpose and is no longer used. The people of Israel were very accustomed to this baptism in Old Testament washings and types, so it resonated, but the object was the "Repentance." This baptism served as you might say an introduction for the believers baptism, which had much more meaning.

2. The believers baptism
This is the baptism in the name of the Lord. It is the baptism our Lord commanded to be given to those who believe in Him. Christ instructed that in this ceremony we were to call on the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These 3 are the creators of not just the universe but also your salvation and redemption. This is why we call on these names. They are the beginning and the end of all that man can understand. The purpose of this baptism is the reason for this thread! I will point out that purpose later, when much more is explained.

3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit
This baptism is a spiritual baptism. The Pentecostals call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Scripture calls it "receiving the Holy Spirit" or "being filled with the Holy Spirit." Not one time in Scripture is this baptism called what the Pentecostals have named it! In fact, if you remember my problem with the Pentecostals from the last post, this is the problem. I will now present this problem, and discuss this baptism and some history of it. It is imperative that you understand the origins of this baptism and the truth of what this baptism really is.

Back in the late 1700's a group from the Methodist Church claimed that some of it's members had been filled with the Spirit according to the book of Acts. These people named this experience "the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some 125 years later, around 1901 a revival broke out in Los Angeles, Ca. called the Azusa Street Revival. They carried on with this name "baptism of the Holy Spirit." This was the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement in the United States as we know it today.

I have no problem with the Pentecostals speaking in tongues, I can't prove from Scripture that tongues have ceased. Both sides have a solid argument for "when that which is perfect is come..... tongues and prophesy will cease. So I'm not going there.

My problem is this, before the the name "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was created by this movement, the theologians referred to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as the experience that Paul taught in Rom. 6:3-5, "the baptism into Christ." As a result, the true meaning of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" has been lost.

The Pentecostals place the focus on the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," in Acts 2 and undermine what really happened is that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man that day at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit now entering permanently in man, baptizing man into Christ. It was the born-again experience Paul taught in Rom. 6.

Two things happened at Pentecost in Acts 2, the believer was permanently "filled with the Holy Spirit, and "baptized into Christ." It was the initial spiritual baptism where man was baptized into the death of Christ, buried with Him, and risen a new man, according to Paul in Rom. 6. Acts 2 was the initial happening of this, now that the Holy Spirit was sent to permanently dwell in man. Since then, man is individually "baptized into Christ" when he believes.

Next time I will show you from Scripture how I know this is true.

 

[Charlie24]

It's been a few days so I want to quickly recap what we have found.

We found there is a literal water baptism and a spiritual baptism. Also, the word "Baptism" is used for both water and spiritual baptisms and the 2 Greek words for baptism differentiate only the use of a noun or verb. The only way to know whether the baptism is spiritual or literal in water is by the context of Scripture.

I also gave an example of 3 baptisms in one passage of Scripture. Before we move on, let's give a quick definition of these 3 baptisms, in which 2 are literal water baptisms and one spiritual.

1. The baptism of repentance
This is John the Baptist' baptism. It is not the same as the believers baptism, which is called in Scripture, the baptism in the name of the Lord. We seen in Scripture where Paul defined this baptism as a baptism of repentance that John performed and told the people to look for the Messiah, He is now in our midst. This baptism served a special purpose and is no longer used. The people of Israel were very accustomed to this baptism in Old Testament washings and types, so it resonated, but the object was the "Repentance." This baptism served as you might say an introduction for the believers baptism, which had much more meaning.

2. The believers baptism
This is the baptism in the name of the Lord. It is the baptism our Lord commanded to be given to those who believe in Him. Christ instructed that in this ceremony we were to call on the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These 3 are the creators of not just the universe but also your salvation and redemption. This is why we call on these names. They are the beginning and the end of all that man can understand. The purpose of this baptism is the reason for this thread! I will point out that purpose later, when much more is explained.

3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit
This baptism is a spiritual baptism. The Pentecostals call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Scripture calls it "receiving the Holy Spirit" or "being filled with the Holy Spirit." Not one time in Scripture is this baptism called what the Pentecostals have named it! In fact, if you remember my problem with the Pentecostals from the last post, this is the problem. I will now present this problem, and discuss this baptism and some history of it. It is imperative that you understand the origins of this baptism and the truth of what this baptism really is.

Back in the late 1700's a group from the Methodist Church claimed that some of it's members had been filled with the Spirit according to the book of Acts. These people named this experience "the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some 125 years later, around 1901 a revival broke out in Los Angeles, Ca. called the Azusa Street Revival. They carried on with this name "baptism of the Holy Spirit." This was the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement in the United States as we know it today.

I have no problem with the Pentecostals speaking in tongues, I can't prove from Scripture that tongues have ceased. Both sides have a solid argument for "when that which is perfect is come..... tongues and prophesy will cease. So I'm not going there.

My problem is this, before the the name "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was created by this movement, the theologians referred to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as the experience that Paul taught in Rom. 6:3-5, "the baptism into Christ." As a result, the true meaning of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" has been lost.

The Pentecostals place the focus on the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," in Acts 2 and undermine what really happened is that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man that day at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit now entering permanently in man, baptizing man into Christ. It was the born-again experience Paul taught in Rom. 6.

Two things happened at Pentecost in Acts 2, the believer was permanently "filled with the Holy Spirit, and "baptized into Christ." It was the initial spiritual baptism where man was baptized into the death of Christ, buried with Him, and risen a new man, according to Paul in Rom. 6. Acts 2 was the initial happening of this, now that the Holy Spirit was sent to permanently dwell in man. Since then, man is individually "baptized into Christ" when he believes.

Next time I will show you from Scripture how I know this is true.

I just read my own post here and see something that could be misconstrued.

I'm not saying there is no "being filled with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.

That is biblical, and I don't want anyone thinking I'm denying that fact!

 

[Randy Kluth]

It's been a few days so I want to quickly recap what we have found.

We found there is a literal water baptism and a spiritual baptism. Also, the word "Baptism" is used for both water and spiritual baptisms and the 2 Greek words for baptism differentiate only the use of a noun or verb. The only way to know whether the baptism is spiritual or literal in water is by the context of Scripture.

I also gave an example of 3 baptisms in one passage of Scripture. Before we move on, let's give a quick definition of these 3 baptisms, in which 2 are literal water baptisms and one spiritual.

1. The baptism of repentance
This is John the Baptist' baptism. It is not the same as the believers baptism, which is called in Scripture, the baptism in the name of the Lord. We seen in Scripture where Paul defined this baptism as a baptism of repentance that John performed and told the people to look for the Messiah, He is now in our midst. This baptism served a special purpose and is no longer used. The people of Israel were very accustomed to this baptism in Old Testament washings and types, so it resonated, but the object was the "Repentance." This baptism served as you might say an introduction for the believers baptism, which had much more meaning.

2. The believers baptism
This is the baptism in the name of the Lord. It is the baptism our Lord commanded to be given to those who believe in Him. Christ instructed that in this ceremony we were to call on the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These 3 are the creators of not just the universe but also your salvation and redemption. This is why we call on these names. They are the beginning and the end of all that man can understand. The purpose of this baptism is the reason for this thread! I will point out that purpose later, when much more is explained.

3. The baptism of the Holy Spirit
This baptism is a spiritual baptism. The Pentecostals call it the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the Scripture calls it "receiving the Holy Spirit" or "being filled with the Holy Spirit." Not one time in Scripture is this baptism called what the Pentecostals have named it! In fact, if you remember my problem with the Pentecostals from the last post, this is the problem. I will now present this problem, and discuss this baptism and some history of it. It is imperative that you understand the origins of this baptism and the truth of what this baptism really is.

Back in the late 1700's a group from the Methodist Church claimed that some of it's members had been filled with the Spirit according to the book of Acts. These people named this experience "the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Some 125 years later, around 1901 a revival broke out in Los Angeles, Ca. called the Azusa Street Revival. They carried on with this name "baptism of the Holy Spirit." This was the beginning of the Pentecostal Movement in the United States as we know it today.

I have no problem with the Pentecostals speaking in tongues, I can't prove from Scripture that tongues have ceased. Both sides have a solid argument for "when that which is perfect is come..... tongues and prophesy will cease. So I'm not going there.

My problem is this, before the the name "baptism of the Holy Spirit" was created by this movement, the theologians referred to the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" as the experience that Paul taught in Rom. 6:3-5, "the baptism into Christ." As a result, the true meaning of the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" has been lost.

The Pentecostals place the focus on the "baptism of the Holy Spirit," in Acts 2 and undermine what really happened is that the Holy Spirit came to dwell in man that day at Pentecost. The Holy Spirit now entering permanently in man, baptizing man into Christ. It was the born-again experience Paul taught in Rom. 6.

Two things happened at Pentecost in Acts 2, the believer was permanently "filled with the Holy Spirit, and "baptized into Christ." It was the initial spiritual baptism where man was baptized into the death of Christ, buried with Him, and risen a new man, according to Paul in Rom. 6. Acts 2 was the initial happening of this, now that the Holy Spirit was sent to permanently dwell in man. Since then, man is individually "baptized into Christ" when he believes.

Next time I will show you from Scripture how I know this is true.

I've come to similar conclusions. I've been a Pentecostal for 50 years, but I've long been outside of Pentecostal theology, probably due to my having been raised and confirmed a Lutheran. I knew much more about the Bible than most of my young Pentecostal friends many years ago. They just followed the line. I remained committed to truth as I saw it.

I will not deny that there is something to the Pentecostal experience, no matter what they call it. It is likely misnamed "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit." It is probably what the Bible calls, "coming to learn of the Lord more fully."

Acts 18.26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

I myself, as a Lutheran, had a lot of head knowledge even with genuine faith. But within my spiritually weak and naïve church I never learned that there was more of a close personal relationship with God we could have. I knew Him on a daily basis through prayer. But until I learned to submit to His decisions in my conscience every day I never knew how intimate He could be in driving us in the right direction each day, as we made adult decisions.

Ideally, when a believer gets baptized, the water baptism is purely an external ceremony demonstrating our true repentance. In this it is like John's baptism, but as was pointed out, this is baptism in *Jesus' name,* and represents a spiritual union with Christ. We repent of living a life apart from Christ, and show our contrition by entering into a full committed walk with Christ.

So when we get baptized into Christ spiritually we begin to live in close personal relationship with him, and walk every day in a path worthy of him. We can only know this if we are truly united spiritually with him, and have our heart and conscience open to hear him all the time.

Having become united with Christ there is another element to NT Christianity than just being joined to Christ. In being joined to him we also are given gifts to minister on his behalf, as ambassadors of Christ. These "charismatic gifts" are drawn upon by Pentecostals and Charismatics.

But again, I don't entirely agree with them. They teach that every one of us has been given every gift. Paul asked the question, rhetorically: do all speak in tongues, are all apostles? Obviously not.

So gifts are distributed to each one by the will of the Holy Spirit. It is part of our being baptized into Christ, when our hearts are open to hear from him every day. We will find ourselves equipped to testify to him in our own unique way.

And I wouldn't just limit this to supernatural gifts. Our individual personalities are themselves a gift and an expression of Christ in its own way. The one true baptism of the believer is being baptized into Christ, and thus coming to know the Lord "more fully."

In this we walk with him every day, hear him through our conscience so that we make good decisions. And then we find we have an obligation to testify of him to others for their benefit. This is the baptism that matters, becoming aligned with Christ and ministering to others on his behalf.

 

[Charlie24]

I've come to similar conclusions. I've been a Pentecostal for 50 years, but I've long been outside of Pentecostal theology, probably due to my having been raised and confirmed a Lutheran. I knew much more about the Bible than most of my young Pentecostal friends many years ago. They just followed the line. I remained committed to truth as I saw it.

I will not deny that there is something to the Pentecostal experience, no matter what they call it. It is likely misnamed "the Baptism of the Holy Spirit." It is probably what the Bible calls, "coming to learn of the Lord more fully."

Acts 18.26 He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.

I myself, as a Lutheran, had a lot of head knowledge even with genuine faith. But within my spiritually weak and naïve church I never learned that there was more of a close personal relationship with God we could have. I knew Him on a daily basis through prayer. But until I learned to submit to His decisions in my conscience every day I never knew how intimate He could be in driving us in the right direction each day, as we made adult decisions.

Ideally, when a believer gets baptized, the water baptism is purely an external ceremony demonstrating our true repentance. In this it is like John's baptism, but as was pointed out, this is baptism in *Jesus' name,* and represents a spiritual union with Christ. We repent of living a life apart from Christ, and show our contrition by entering into a full committed walk with Christ.

So when we get baptized into Christ spiritually we begin to live in close personal relationship with him, and walk every day in a path worthy of him. We can only know this if we are truly united spiritually with him, and have our heart and conscience open to hear him all the time.

Having become united with Christ there is another element to NT Christianity than just being joined to Christ. In being joined to him we also are given gifts to minister on his behalf, as ambassadors of Christ. These "charismatic gifts" are drawn upon by Pentecostals and Charismatics.

But again, I don't entirely agree with them. They teach that every one of us has been given every gift. Paul asked the question, rhetorically: do all speak in tongues, are all apostles? Obviously not.

So gifts are distributed to each one by the will of the Holy Spirit. It is part of our being baptized into Christ, when our hearts are open to hear from him every day. We will find ourselves equipped to testify to him in our own unique way.

And I wouldn't just limit this to supernatural gifts. Our individual personalities are themselves a gift and an expression of Christ in its own way. The one true baptism of the believer is being baptized into Christ, and thus coming to know the Lord "more fully."

In this we walk with him every day, hear him through our conscience so that we make good decisions. And then we find we have an obligation to testify of him to others for their benefit. This is the baptism that matters, becoming aligned with Christ and ministering to others on his behalf.

It warms my spirit to read your post, Brother! You have mentioned the most important thing of all "our union with Christ" in the baptism into Christ. That is my next point from Scripture to wrap this thing up. You are reading me like a book!

I think some eyes are going to be opened when we get in the Scripture! I can talk all day long, but if I can't back it up with Scripture I'm a sounding brass and a tingling cymbal. It will be very interesting!