The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're assuming Paul implies something he did not. He begins saying "it is IMPOSSIBLE", not that it might be possible.

I don't know what you are intending to say here. What do you think he said is impossible? He said it is impossible to be renewed again to repentance if someone falls away. Do you have a different understanding of what he said than that?

Some who have every appearance of being eternally secure in Christ have and shall fall away.

I believe the description in Hebrews 6:4-5 is of someone who is beyond just having "every appearance of being eternally secure in Christ". That description only fits someone who is actually in Christ, just like we see in Hebrews 3:1.

Not because the Spirit abandoned them, but because they never possessed the Spirit.

To fall away is not a case of the Spirit abandoning someone, it's a case of someone abandoning God.

Remember, it is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh profits nothing.

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Peter 3:18 (KJV) For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Of course we can't give ourselves spiritual life. But, we don't receive the Spirit until after we have first put our faith in Christ.

Ephesians 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Once the Spirit has been given, we are promised the Spirit will never leave us.

He won't leave us, but scripture indicates that we can leave Him, which explains why the warnings in passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 are given to believers.

If the life-giving Spirit shall never leave us, how could we who have truly been eternally born again of the Spirit ever fall away from Christ?

You're not understanding what falling away means. It's not the Spirit falling away from a person, it's a person falling away from God.

The Spirit sent from Christ will be with us until we are physically raised to immortality and incorruption.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

You're only looking at half of the story here. Notice it says "that he MAY abide with you forever". Why do you think that man has no responsibility even though scripture repeatedly talks about man's responsibility before God? What do you think is the point of judgment day if man has no responsibility?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (KJV) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Again, you are not including man's responsibility into the equation. You're only looking at half of the picture.

There are both wheat and tares, sheep and goats, believers and unbelievers, Scripture is replete with warnings.

In Calvinism those warnings are pointless because in that belief system God alone determines whether someone will repent and believe or not.

In addition we read of the many who shall be standing before the judgment throne of God believing they were of Christ because of how good they appeared. Sadly, they will hear, "I never knew you."

In Calvinism, those people will have never known Him because God made it that way. So, it has God punishing them for no reason.

No, we must not be presumptuous with our inheritance in Christ, which is why we are warned to examine ourselves, and to try the spirits that seem to be of Christ not being deceived or deceiving ourselves.

Why do we need to examine ourselves if it's completely up to God as to whether we are saved or not? There is no point in having any concern about our spiritual status if we have no say in the matter, as Calvinism teaches.

 

[rwb]

To fall away is not a case of the Spirit abandoning someone, it's a case of someone abandoning God.

Do you really believe that we are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, who is sent to give whosoever believes ETERNAL life?

He won't leave us, but scripture indicates that we can leave Him, which explains why the warnings in passages like Hebrews 3:12-14 and Hebrews 6:4-6 are given to believers.

Again, this argues we are more powerful than God! If the life we receive through the Spirit is not eternal, the Bible is not true!

You're not understanding what falling away means. It's not the Spirit falling away from a person, it's a person falling away from God.

You're not understanding that God gives eternal/everlasting/forever life for whosoever believes through His Spirit in us. We are NOT more powerful than God! He who begins the work in us will complete it to the end. How can any true born again believer indwelt with the Spirit from Christ fall away from Him? It is impossible, for He who is in me is greater than he who is in this world (that's me).

You're only looking at half of the story here. Notice it says "that he MAY abide with you forever". Why do you think that man has no responsibility even though scripture repeatedly talks about man's responsibility before God? What do you think is the point of judgment day if man has no responsibility?

Never said believers have no responsibility! The warnings are replete through Scripture because there are many among believers who are not of the truth, so we are warned not to be deceived by them. They cannot steal our eternal life, but they can steal our joy. Since Christ left He sent us His Spirit, and it is through Him that Christ shall be with us always.

Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

It is the "DEAD" not the living who are judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life on Judgment Day.

Again, you are not including man's responsibility into the equation. You're only looking at half of the picture.

No, I am not considering only part of what it means to have eternal life. If my eternal life is dependent upon any part of me, then I am doomed to condemnation. My obedience to God and promptings of the Spirit in me will be judged in this life, because we read that God chastens those whom He loves.

Why do we need to examine ourselves if it's completely up to God as to whether we are saved or not? There is no point in having any concern about our spiritual status if we have no say in the matter, as Calvinism teaches.

Because the chastening believers receive from God in this life is not pleasant, and something I earnestly and faithfully desire to avoid.

Hebrews 12:6 (KJV) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 (KJV) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Revelation 3:19 (KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

 

[Timtofly]

No cult ever said it better.

Proverbs 14:12 NASB
There is a way which seems right to a person, But its end is the way of death.

Yes, your acceptance of Satan's deception leads to death. You think Satan's deception seems right to you, but that is the furthest thing from Scripture you can get.

 

[Timtofly]

You are so deceived. You are completely lacking in discernment. I mean completely. You couldn't be more clueless if you tried. Ask God for wisdom because you currently have none at all (James 1:5-7).

Try telling Paul that Eve was not created if you ever see him some day.

1 Timothy 2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

That is what Genesis says: Adam was first formed, not Eve.

Eve came later after Adam named the animals. Adam was put to sleep.

Paul never states they were both created on the 6th day ever.

So now being spiritually discerned means to blatantly contradict different parts of Scripture so you all can pat yourself on the back thinking you are smarter than God's Word?

 

[covenantee]

Yes, your acceptance of Satan's deception leads to death. You think Satan's deception seems right to you, but that is the furthest thing from Scripture you can get.

I didn't use the word "seems".

You did: "Seems I am the only one true to God's Word."

Only a cultist would make such a claim.

Proverbs 14:12 applies to you.

 

[Timtofly]

I didn't use the word "seems".

You did: "Seems I am the only one true to God's Word."

Only a cultist would make such a claim.

Proverbs 14:12 applies to you.

Well since you are stuck in Satan's deception, it seems to you, I am the cult. I am not stuck in Satan's deception.

If being true to God's Word is a cult then so be it. That is what the Roman empire declared of first century Christians, a cult. Sounds like you have joined with the Romans in their deception.

 

[covenantee]

Well since you are stuck in Satan's deception, it seems to you, I am the cult. I am not stuck in Satan's deception.

If being true to God's Word is a cult then so be it. That is what the Roman empire declared of first century Christians, a cult. Sounds like you have joined with the Romans in their deception.

You declaring yourself "the only one true to God's Word" is a cult.

 

[Timtofly]

You declaring yourself "the only one true to God's Word" is a cult.

That is what the Romans called the first century Christians, who claimed they had the truth of God's Word.

So, it seems you have chosen the side of the Romans.

 

[covenantee]

That is what the Romans called the first century Christians, who claimed they had the truth of God's Word.

So, it seems you have chosen the side of the Romans.

Walter Martin wrote "The Kingdom of the Cults", exposing those claiming to be "the only ones true to God's Word".

Such as you're claiming.

He was a Christian. So am I.

He wasn't a Roman. Neither am I.

 

[Timtofly]

Walter Martin wrote "The Kingdom of the Cults", exposing those claiming to be "the only ones true to God's Word".

Such as you're claiming.

He was a Christian. So am I.

He wasn't a Roman. Neither am I.

No you are just bullying the point for the fun of it.

 

[covenantee]

No you are just bullying the point for the fun of it.

There is nothing funny about cults.

So you should stop sounding like one.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Do you really believe that we are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, who is sent to give whosoever believes ETERNAL life?

This is a typical Calvinist tactic to try to distract attention away from the real issue being discussed. Of course I do not believe that we are more powerful than the Holy Spirit, but this has nothing to do with that. It has to do with whether we have free will or not and whether God basically forces people to repent and believe or not.

Again, this argues we are more powerful than God!

Nonsense. You are trying to reframe the discussion, but I'm not buying into that.

If the life we receive through the Spirit is not eternal, the Bible is not true!

It is eternal upon the condition that we "hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Why do you leave that part out? You continue to only look at half of the picture. Calvinism removes all responsibility from man, which is shameful. There is no point of having a judgment day if man has no free will because without free will man can't be responsible for anything.

You're not understanding that God gives eternal/everlasting/forever life for whosoever believes through His Spirit in us. We are NOT more powerful than God!

I am obviously not saying we are more powerful than God. Stop misrepresenting my view like this. You're better than that.

He who begins the work in us will complete it to the end. How can any true born again believer indwelt with the Spirit from Christ fall away from Him? It is impossible, for He who is in me is greater than he who is in this world (that's me).

You remove all responsibility of man even though scripture repeatedly talks about man's responsibility. What is the reason that God will punish people if He alone determines everything? Please answer that question.

Never said believers have no responsibility!

What responsibility do we have? Do unbelievers have any responsibility? If so, what are they responsible for?

The warnings are replete through Scripture because there are many among believers who are not of the truth, so we are warned not to be deceived by them.

According to your beliefs, we can't be deceived by them, so what is the point of the warnings from the perspective of your Calvinist beliefs?

They cannot steal our eternal life, but they can steal our joy.

As if losing our joy means anything compared to eternal life. It doesn't. Calvinism turns these warnings into things that can't be taken seriously. It makes them only warnings about losing our joy in this temporary life rather than warnings about losing eternal life. That's a huge difference.

Since Christ left He sent us His Spirit, and it is through Him that Christ shall be with us always.

Matthew 28:20 (KJV) Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

It is the "DEAD" not the living who are judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life on Judgment Day.

What was the point of your last statement here? Why will the dead be judged/condemned if they had no ability to believe and repent?

No, I am not considering only part of what it means to have eternal life. If my eternal life is dependent upon any part of me, then I am doomed to condemnation.

Why do you say that? What scripture is that belief based on? In Acts 16:30-31 when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he needed to do to be saved they told him he needed to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved". Do you think they were mistaken for telling him that? Should they instead have said there was nothing he could do to be saved?

My obedience to God and promptings of the Spirit in me will be judged in this life, because we read that God chastens those whom He loves.

What did you mean exactly by this? How will you be judged? Is it based on your free will choices at all? If not, then what is the basis of anything you have done being judged?

Because the chastening believers receive from God in this life is not pleasant, and something I earnestly and faithfully desire to avoid.

Hebrews 12:6 (KJV) For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Hebrews 12:7 (KJV) If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Revelation 3:19 (KJV) As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Hebrews 12:7 says "IF ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons". Doesn't that imply that you may not endure it? Why do you think it's automatic that someone will endure His chastening?

Revelation 3:19 says "be zealous therefore, and repent". Is it automatic that people who are rebuked and chastened will be zealous and repent in response? No, it doesn't say that.

If you keep reading in Hebrews 12 you will see this:

Hebrews 12:25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

Notice here that Paul was including himself when he said "much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven"? He indicates here that it's possible for a believer to turn away from God and experience His wrath as a result. Just like other passages in Hebrews indicate.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is what the Romans called the first century Christians, who claimed they had the truth of God's Word.

So, it seems you have chosen the side of the Romans.

That was a large number of people with shared beliefs. You have beliefs all your own and are claiming you alone have the truth of God's Word. That's a very different situation. You are a one man cult. God doesn't reveal truth to just one person.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

That is what Genesis says: Adam was first formed, not Eve.

Eve came later after Adam named the animals. Adam was put to sleep.

Paul never states they were both created on the 6th day ever.

So now being spiritually discerned means to blatantly contradict different parts of Scripture so you all can pat yourself on the back thinking you are smarter than God's Word?

Your horrible reading comprehension skills are on display again. I didn't say anything about Adam and Eve being created on the same day.

You said "Eve was not even created, much less on the 6th day.". I showed the scripture which teaches that she was created, but you deny it. I was refuting your claim that she wasn't created at all.

 

[rwb]

It is eternal upon the condition that we "hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

Who is keeping us? Are we keeping ourselves in faith, or are we being kept through the power of God, the Holy Spirit in us? I believe we are being kept by the power of God because that is what Scripture says. The power of God is unfailing, so how could we fall away when kept by Him?

1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Why do you leave that part out? You continue to only look at half of the picture. Calvinism removes all responsibility from man, which is shameful. There is no point of having a judgment day if man has no free will because without free will man can't be responsible for anything.

The warnings are not to those who are being kept by the power of God. It is to those who are among us but do not endure because they are not depending on the power of God within to save them but relying upon themselves. Our works are the result of the power of God through His Spirit working through us. We do the works we are ordained to because we have the power of God in us. IOW good works will follow those who have the Spirit of good working and willing within them. Good works are the result of salvation, they are not done to be saved, but done because we are eternally saved by His Spirit in us.

Let me make one more point perfectly clear! My doctrine comes from the Word of God and is not dependent upon the doctrine of any man. If my doctrine aligns with doctrine of others, it simply means we have like-minded understanding of the doctrines of God's grace. Since you're caught up in defending against Calvinists, you might be better off finding a Calvinist to have these discussions with. I'm not interested in defending for or against Calvinism. I desire only to bring forth what I have found to be biblical truths from the Word of God.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Who is keeping us? Are we keeping ourselves in faith, or are we being kept through the power of God, the Holy Spirit in us? I believe we are being kept by the power of God because that is what Scripture says.

We are responsible to willingly submit to the power of God. That is the part that you are leaving out. Your doctrine removes responsibility from man, which makes judgment day pointless.

The power of God is unfailing, so how could we fall away when kept by Him?
1 Peter 1:3-5 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God doesn't keep us against our will. We must willingly submit to Him. We must continue to have faith in Him until the end of our lives. You continue to leave that part out.

Hebrews 3:14 We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

The warnings are not to those who are being kept by the power of God. It is to those who are among us but do not endure because they are not depending on the power of God within to save them but relying upon themselves.

Is the act of "depending on the power of God within to save" us something that is automatic for us? I don't see any indication of that. We are responsible to do that. We are not saved by any power of our own, we are saved by God's power and humbling ourselves and submitting ourselves to Him.

Luke 18:14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Our works are the result of the power of God through His Spirit working through us.

Do we have no responsibility to willingly submit to His power in your mind? Does He just work through us without expecting any cooperation on our part? I believe scripture clearly teaches repeatedly that is our responsibility to willingly submit to His power which does not just happen automatically. Otherwise, how could it be possible for us to grieve the Holy Spirit?

Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This is a message for you and me and all believers.

We do the works we are ordained to because we have the power of God in us. IOW good works will follow those who have the Spirit of good working and willing within them. Good works are the result of salvation, they are not done to be saved, but done because we are eternally saved by His Spirit in us.

Of course! Do you actually think I believe that we are required to do good works in order to be saved? Of course not. You need to read what I actually say instead of making assumptions about what you think I believe.

Let me make one more point perfectly clear! My doctrine comes from the Word of God and is not dependent upon the doctrine of any man.

That is what I believe about my doctrine as well, so making statements like that does not differentiate us.

If my doctrine aligns with doctrine of others, it simply means we have like-minded understanding of the doctrines of God's grace.

Okay? I didn't say your doctrine doesn't align with anyone else's, so I'm not sure why you're saying this.

Since you're caught up in defending against Calvinists, you might be better off finding a Calvinist to have these discussions with.

Are you not a Calvinist? You seem to have Calvinist beliefs. What Calvinist beliefs do you disagree with?

I'm not interested in defending for or against Calvinism. I desire only to bring forth what I have found to be biblical truths from the Word of God.

I wasn't trying to insult you by associating your beliefs with Calvinism. It just seems clear to me that you have the same beliefs as what are taught in Calvinism.

 

[Timtofly]

There is nothing funny about cults.

So you should stop sounding like one.

There is nothing funny about being a bully. So you should stop being one.

I have never once made any suggestions or hints at being a cult. Yet you continue to derail this thread with false accusations. Then you blame me for your display of bad behavior.

 

[Timtofly]

Your horrible reading comprehension skills are on display again. I didn't say anything about Adam and Eve being created on the same day.

You said "Eve was not even created, much less on the 6th day.". I showed the scripture which teaches that she was created, but you deny it. I was refuting your claim that she wasn't created at all.

You never showed any verses stating Eve was created. Eve was taken out of Adam. The point made was that it did not happen on the 6th day of creation. Eve was not the one created in those verses in Genesis 1:26-27. Eve was formed from the substance of Adam. Or literally Adam was divided, and was no longer both genders, if you are going to go all technical, and say Eve was created. Eve was a part of Adam. Then Eve was not a part of Adam.

You place the word created into 1 Timothy 2:13. Yet still cannot see that Jesus comes to earth at the Second Coming, because the words are not there, "on the earth"? Should we point out you have horrible reading comprehension skills, when it comes to eschatology?

 

[covenantee]

I have never once made any suggestions or hints at being a cult.

Of course not. A cult will never admit to being a cult.

It will only ever insist that it is "the only one true to God's Word".

 

[Timtofly]

Of course not. A cult will never admit to being a cult.

It will only ever insist that it is "the only one true to God's Word".

Sorta like you are doing by continuing to prove you are right.