The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[marks]

LOL! Well of course! Goodness gracious. Do you think you're answering my question, Marks? Or are you avoiding it? I agree with what you say here, but wouldn't anybody?

No, that's just the thing.

Many seem to think that God addressed a certain people, delineated in a certain way, but meant a different certain people, delineated in a different sort of way. That is, the phyical descendants of Jacob, compared to those baptized into Christ, that is, the body of Christ.

And of course others seem to think that the promise having been made has been rescinded even though that was part of the promise, that it is valid as long as the natural order of sun and moon continue. That there was nothing they could do to be cast off.

When you ask, Who is Israel, are we to discuss the "Spiritual Israel", in which these many many prophetic passages are voided of their meaning? I'm asserting that to the very people God made these promises, He has and will continue to keep them.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

No, that's just the thing.

LOL! I'm not even sure what this means, but okay.

Many seem to think that God addressed a certain people, delineated in a certain way, but meant a different certain people, delineated in a different sort of way. That is, the phyical descendants of Jacob, compared to those baptized into Christ, that is, the body of Christ.

And of course others seem to think that the promise having been made has been rescinded even though that was part of the promise, that it is valid as long as the natural order of sun and moon continue. That there was nothing they could do to be cast off.

Well, I'm not included in either grouping, here, Marks. And your second group is just a false characterization, really.

When you ask, Who is Israel, are we to discuss the "Spiritual Israel", in which these many many prophetic passages are voided of their meaning? I'm asserting that to the very people God made these promises, He has and will continue to keep them.

And I'm asserting that both are one and the same. To not get that, to believe otherwise, is to be in error. Again, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2) To exclude the "New Testament Church" from Israel is terribly wrong. They are we, and we are they; we are one; "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus."

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

LOL! I'm not even sure what this means, but okay.


Well, I'm not included in either grouping, here, Marks. And your second group is just a false characterization, really.


And I'm asserting that both are one and the same. To not get that, to believe otherwise, is to be in error. Again, "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son..." (Hebrews 1:1-2) To exclude the "New Testament Church" from Israel is terribly wrong. They are we, and we are they; we are one; "(t)here is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for (we) are all one in Christ Jesus."

Grace and peace to you.

Make no mistake. God will keep His promises in the way He made them, to those to whom He made them, and the New Testament Church does not equal Jacob's children. To me it's as simple as that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

And your second group is just a false characterization, really.

You haven't seen this? I certainly have!

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Make no mistake. God will keep His promises in the way He made them, to those to whom He made them, and the New Testament Church does not equal Jacob's children. To me it's as simple as that.

Much love!

The numerous Scriptures that PinSeeker and I have cited confirm that there is not one promise for anyone, Jew e.g. Jacob's children, or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Conversely, all of the promises are exclusively for those who are in Christ, both Jew e.g. Jacob's children, and Gentile.

They are known as the New Testament Church.

 

[marks]

The numerous Scriptures that I and PinSeeker have cited confirm that there are no promises for anyone, Jew e.g. Jacob's children, or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Post 1 single passage which tells us that God will not keep His promise to restore Israel in salvation to their promised land. There is not one. And there are so many which affirm it.

You are reading passages which pertain to one thing, and treating them as though they applied to the other. Do I really need to go through all your posts, and repost the passages you've quoted in their contexts to show that they don't address this?

Pick one that you find bulletproof that tells us that God will not do as He said through His prophets that He would do in this regard in particular.

Much love!

 

[covenantee]

Post 1 single passage which tells us that God will not keep His promise to restore Israel in salvation to their promised land. There is not one. And there are so many which affirm it.

You are reading passages which pertain to one thing, and treating them as though they applied to the other. Do I really need to go through all your posts, and repost the passages you've quoted in their contexts to show that they don't address this?

Pick one that you find bulletproof that tells us that God will not do as He said through His prophets that He would do in this regard in particular.

Much love!

There is not one promise in God's New Will and Testament, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary, that restores Israel to their "promised land".

Not one.

The Apostle Paul describes in sobering terms the eternal fate awaiting apostate antichrist Israel.

You should pay attention to him.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

 

[marks]

There is not one promise in God's New Will and Testament, which is the only Will and Testament in force and effect since Calvary, that restores Israel to their "promised land".

Not one.

The Apostle Paul describes in sobering terms the eternal fate awaiting apostate antichrist Israel.

You should pay attention to him.

1 Thessalonians 2
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.

Again, in the context of Scripture, God preserves His remnent. Some of Israel were blinded, but only some.

This is not a passage which denies that God will save His remnent and restore them to their land. This is something that is prophesied over and over again, with caveats that nothing would prevent it.

And again . . . If you cannot believe God's promises to them, how can you believe God's promises to you? If Scripture is broken how can you believe it?

Paul is here speaking of those who did these things, and not the entire nation. And great vengeance would be upon them all, however, God preserves a remnent, and will restore them, as prophesied.

Much love!

 

[ewq1938]

You should post that passage in it's context, and you will see the full passage speaks exactly opposite the way you are presenting it.

False. Jews that reject Christ are cast off the tree and can only be re-attached if they accept Christ.

 

[covenantee]

God preserves a remnent, and will restore them, as prophesied.

Of course. That's what I/we have been saying consistently. God preserves His faithful obedient remnant, restoring them to Himself through Christ. (Romans 9:6-8,27; Romans 11:1-5).

That is not the physical nation, and it is not the unfaithful and disobedient.

 

[covenantee]

If you cannot believe God's promises to them, how can you believe God's promises to you?

I believe that God's promises to me, and to all, including them, who were and are faithful and obedient to Him; are fulfilled in Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:20.

You don't.

2 Corinthians 1
20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

All the promises of God in Him are yea and Amen.

Not in Israel.

Not in the land.

Only in Him.

 

[Jay Ross]

Post 1 single passage which tells us that God will not keep His promise to restore Israel in salvation to their promised land. There is not one. And there are so many which affirm it.

You are reading passages which pertain to one thing, and treating them as though they applied to the other. Do I really need to go through all your posts, and repost the passages you've quoted in their contexts to show that they don't address this?

Pick one that you find bulletproof that tells us that God will not do as He said through His prophets that He would do in this regard in particular.

Much love!

Ah! Marks, your understanding is as the translations suggest, however Moses and the Prophets presented a very different view of what God was going to do when He begins to gather them once more to Himself. God's promise is that He would plant them in the fertile soil of Israel, His faithful servant, Christ, and teach them on the mountain of Israel, that would become the highest mountain in all of the earth as Daniel the Prophet wrote, would happen during the time of those kings who form the fifth segment in the Statue prophecy.

In keeping with the Abrahamic covenant, the Israelites would remain scattered throughout all of the earth to be a blessing to all of the nations when He starts to begin to gather them to Himself.

Here is a passage from Ezekiel 34:11-31, that gives this understanding: -​

God, the True Shepherd​

11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver/rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and will bring them to/into their own land/fertile field; I will feed them on the mountain(s) of Israel, {a metaphor for Israel’s religious basis}, {where they are living} in the {river} valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country/earth. 14 I will feed them in good pasture, and their fold shall be on the high mountain(s) of Israel, {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. There they shall lie down in a good fold and feed in rich pasture on the mountain(s) of Israel {i.e. the religious basis of Israel}. 15 I will feed My flock, and I will make them lie down," says the Lord God. 16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment." ​

​

17 'And as for you, O My flock, thus says the Lord God: "Behold, I shall judge between sheep and sheep, between rams and goats. 18 Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture — and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the residue with your feet? 19 And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet."​

​

20 'Therefore thus says the Lord God to them: "Behold, I Myself will judge between the fat and the lean sheep. 21 Because you have pushed with side and shoulder, butted all the weak ones with your horns, and scattered them abroad, 22 therefore I will save My flock, and they shall no longer be a prey; and I will judge between sheep and sheep. 23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them — My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.​

​

25 "I will make a covenant of peace with them and cause wild beasts [1] to cease from the land/earth; and they will dwell safely in the wilderness and sleep in the woods. 26 I will make them and the places all around My hill a blessing; and I will cause showers to come down in their season; there shall be showers of blessing. 27 Then the trees of the field shall yield their fruit, and the earth shall yield her increase. They shall be safe in their land/earth; and they shall know that I am the Lord, when I have broken the bands of their yoke and delivered them from the hand of those who enslaved them. 28 And they shall no longer be a prey for the nations, nor shall beasts of the land/earth devour them; but they shall dwell safely, and no one shall make them afraid. 29 I will raise up for them a garden of renown, and they shall no longer be consumed with hunger in the land/on the earth, nor bear the shame of the Gentiles anymore. 30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"​

​

31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord God.​

---

[1] This is a reference to God’s judgement of the beastly Heavenly Hosts who will be judged during the time that God is turning His attention once more towards the Israelites in our near future, around the year 2044 AD give or take a year or so either way.
Isaiah 24:21-22 speaks of God Judging the Heavenly Hosts in Heaven and the kings of the earth on the earth and that they will be gathered together with the kings of the earth and imprisoned in a cistern/pit for many days to await the time of their punishment.
Daniel 7:11-12 also speaks of the time of the judgement of the Beasts, referred to as the four winds of Heaven in Daniel 7:2 that causes a manifestation of the four respective beasts to rise up out of the sea of humanity with the dominate characteristic of the four respective beasts.
In Revelation 16:12-16 we are told that the kings of the earth after the signs performed by the three foul frog like spirits when they went out from the mouth of the Dragon, the False Prophet and the Beast would be to assemble them for battle, on the great day of God the Almighty at Armageddon where they will be judged as Isaiah 24:21-22 prophesied.
Paul wrote in Romans 11:25-26, that when the fullness with respect to time, that has been set for the Gentiles to trample God’s Sanctuary and His earthly Hosts, has drawn to its conclusion, after the 2,300 year period, and the subsequent judgement of the kings of the earth, all of Israel will be saved.
Ezekiel 34:28 repeats this same theme, where it points a second time to the beasts being removed from the face of the earth and not troubling Israel for a period of 1,000-years.

 

[covenantee]

If you cannot believe God's promises to them, how can you believe God's promises to you? If Scripture is broken how can you believe it?

If your uncle told you that he had bequeathed you $10,000 in his will, and later told you that he had updated his will and increased the bequest to $20,000, would you accuse your uncle of breaking his word because he changed his original bequest?

That absurdity describes precisely what you're doing as a result of God updating His Will.

Previously you've said "there is no rewrite of the promises and covenant's He made, with the exception of what He in fact changed. The Priesthood, primarily. The New Covenent." That is false. The New Covenant/Will/Testament is a complete replacement.

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

The new and better promises found in the better New Covenant/Will/Testament have completely replaced the old promises of the old covenant. We see that any old covenant promises relating, e.g. to the old covenant land occupied by old covenant Israel, are completely absent from the New Covenant/Will/Testament, and are thus null and void. That is an immutable characteristic of wills and testaments.

We are told unambiguously what has happened to the old covenant and its promises. It is impossible to exhume them because they are vanished away.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[PinSeeker]

Make no mistake. God will keep His promises in the way He made them, to those to whom He made them...

Wholeheartedly agreed. But, Marks, ultimately, His promises are not nearly so small as many understand them and/or make them out to be.

...the New Testament Church does not equal Jacob's children.

Not all of them, no.

To me it's as simple as that.

That's just it. "Simple." That's really at least kind of the problem.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[marks]

All the promises of God in Him are yea and Amen.

Including God's promise through Jeremiah to Isreal . . .

Much love!

 

[marks]

False. Jews that reject Christ are cast off the tree and can only be re-attached if they accept Christ.

Show me one passage of Scripture that tells me God will NOT do as He said over and over and over again, that He would regather Israel to their promised land in salvation. Maybe I should collect together all the times He said it? But there are many! It will be a lot of content.

Just one verse?

Much love!

 

[marks]

Of course. That's what I/we have been saying consistently. God preserves His faithful obedient remnant, restoring them to Himself through Christ. (Romans 9:6-8,27; Romans 11:1-5).

That is not the physical nation, and it is not the unfaithful and disobedient.

No, the promises and prophecies, so many of them, are for the children of Jacob. The Bible is very clear! They will be returned, and will believe, and will be saved.

Isaiah 59:20-21 KJV
20) And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.
21) As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the LORD, from henceforth and for ever.

Paul affirmed this,

Romans 11:25-27 KJV
25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

To me this is really hard to miss.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

False. Jews that reject Christ are cast off the tree and can only be re-attached if they accept Christ.

Jews or anyone else that rejects JESUS will be damned . Yes indeed .
When GOD SPOKE abraham BELIEVED
When Christ spoke to the unbelieving jews , THEY DID NOT BELIEVE .
Now this did not abraham do . WHEN GOD SAID , ABRHAM BELIEVED .
WHEN JESUS SAYS , GOD SAID IT . yet many believe not and then behave as though they still believe GOD .
IMPOSSIBLE .
Adam and eve . GOD said in the day ye eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil YE shall surely die .
JESUS said IF YE BELIEVE NOT that i am HE YE WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS .
now adam and eve made a big mistake in believing the serpent when he said YE shall not surely die .
And i am watching a generation make the same mistake today by believing the serpent
who says DID GOD really say , DID CHRIST really say if ye believe not you will be damned .
NAY NAY sayeth the serpent , Folks better get busy preaching JESUS is all i can say my dear friend .
Cause mark my words . IF a man or woman , whether jew or gentile , denies the CHRIST OF GOD
they DENY GOD . God has offered up the ONLY way for a man or a woman to be saved
whether jew or whether gentile . HIS NAME IS JESUS CHRIST , YE MUST BELIEVE IN HIM .

 

[marks]

Not in Israel.

Not in the land.

You keep saying this, but where is the Bible verse that says it?

Ezekiel 39:27-29 KJV
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29) Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

I have passages all over the Bible that say specifically what I've been asserting.

Can you show me one single solitary passage which tells us that God will NOT return Israel to their land in salvation? Just one?

Ezekiel 36:22-38 KJV
22) Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.
23) And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24) For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25) Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
28) And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.
29) I will also save you from all your uncleannesses: and I will call for the corn, and will increase it, and lay no famine upon you.
30) And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen.
31) Then shall ye remember your own evil ways, and your doings that were not good, and shall lothe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and for your abominations.
32) Not for your sakes do I this, saith the Lord GOD, be it known unto you: be ashamed and confounded for your own ways, O house of Israel.
33) Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause you to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
34) And the desolate land shall be tilled, whereas it lay desolate in the sight of all that passed by.
35) And they shall say, This land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden; and the waste and desolate and ruined cities are become fenced, and are inhabited.
36) Then the heathen that are left round about you shall know that I the LORD build the ruined places, and plant that that was desolate: I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.
37) Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will yet for this be enquired of by the house of Israel, to do it for them; I will increase them with men like a flock.
38) As the holy flock, as the flock of Jerusalem in her solemn feasts; so shall the waste cities be filled with flocks of men: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

Show me one passage of Scripture that tells me God will NOT do as He said over and over and over again, that He would regather Israel to their promised land in salvation. Maybe I should collect together all the times He said it? But there are many! It will be a lot of content.

Just one verse?

Much love!

mark , at this moment you are in direct rebellion against GOD and HIS CHRIST .
NOW JESUS never offered up the hope you are trying to offer up
IF THE JEWS Do not BELEIVE HE IS THE CHRIST , i tell us all they too will perish as will the gentile who denies HIM as the Christ .
NEVER FORGET THAT . paul preached to jews and gentiles on the dire necessity to have to beleive .
And paul shook the dust off against even the jews WHO DENIED JESUS .
We better know this ROCK SOLID TRUTH . THERE SIMPLY IS NO OTHER WAY , NO OTHER HOPE
no other NAME , NO OTHER CHRIST , no OTHER PLAN of salvation for the jew or the gentile , BUT TO BELEIVE ON CHRIST JESUS .