The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

[Pierac]

Dear Pierac,
I read your post and I found it scripturally accurate.

I also strongly agree with your comments on Christ being dead for three days. Unlike what most Christians believe, Christ actually did "die" for the sins of the world.

Here is what I understand from scripture about life and death as presented in a simple formula:

SPIRIT + BODY = A LIVING SOUL

Mankind does not possess a "soul", we are a "soul". Also, when the body dies, our soul dies and our spirit then returns to God. At this point, we are dead and have no consciousness. We will remain in this state of death until the resurrection from the grave occurs at the end of this literal age.

Joe

Yes, yes.... I think the term living being is the same as Soul...

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

As far as I can tell...
Paul

 

[marks]

Since the physical body of every human return to dust after death, what part of man will God bring with Him from heaven of them who have physically died in faith? It is the eternal spirit in men/women of faith that returns with Christ alive, having been preserved ALIVE in heaven a spiritual soul, or still having life that never ended even though the physical body is dead and gone. That's why Paul longed for death of his physical body, so that he could be spiritually alive with Christ in heaven.

Great post!

Something I've come to appreciate more is how we are not, our new creation spirit, that is, we are not alive because our bodies are alive, we are alive because God's Spirit is alive. And though our bodies die, His Spirit remains alive.

Our bodies, with our soul (psuche), live in this terrestrial realm. But our born from God spirit lives with Him in the celestial realm. We are hid with Christ in God, seated in the heavenlies together, with Christ. When He appears, we will appear with Him.

Knowing this, how can we say that when the body dies, that we who are in Christ die with it?

Much love!

 

[rwb]

Look.... many here... Not saying... it's you... But many have no clue of what the bible teaches.... They prefer to sit and soak in church with no input form others just the pastor... believing what they are told... YET... Your post.... is not Biblical... but the traditions of men... allow me to explain... Read slowly... It requires you to think!!!

Yes, and many here also have no clue regarding eternal spiritual life given believers by the life-giving Spirit sent from Christ. If the eternal spiritual life we receive through Christ's Spirit ceases after physical death, then Christ would not have said "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" With your rather long reply you NEVER address this truth, why?

Spirit means to have life, and wherever life is found there is a living soul. God gives every living, breathing creature upon the earth a spirit. Without a spirit within the mortal body of flesh, there is NO life, for breathing creatures of the earth, especially humankind. Especially humankind because man was created in the likeness and image of God. No other living breathing creature is. With a body made of the dust of the earth, together with the breath of life (spirit), all creatures of the earth become living souls. When the breath of life (spirit) departs from the body, we are no longer living souls.

Because, remember a soul is defined by LIFE. It means - breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, corresponding with heart, life and mind. Where spirit is defined as the breath of life we receive from God, and that which returns to Him when our body dies. Spirit - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit:—ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. The subtle difference between spirit and soul is that the spirit is what God gives to man making them alive. On the other hand a soul is what living, breathing creatures become when physically alive.

What many, like yourself fail to understand is that those who have the Spirit of Christ in them NEVER die! The Spirit in faithful saints remains in believers until our body is resurrected immortal & incorruptible (the purchased possession). As long as the Holy Spirit keeps us alive spiritually, we have life, and are therefore living souls, like those whom John writes of being in heaven after physical death. Again, this is because wherever there is life (spirit) there is a living soul.

Ephesians 1:10-14 (KJV) That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Why does Christ tell His disciples not to fear the one who kills the body, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell? Because man can only kill our outer shell made of dust of the earth, but cannot destroy our soul. That means the life of all who trust in Christ for eternal life are still alive after our body is dead. To continue to have a soul after physical death is to have life, and that life is through the Spirit of Christ in our spirit that will not depart from us until we are bodily resurrected immortal and incorruptible and reunited with our living (spirit) soul.

Matthew 10:28 (KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

I really and truly do NOT give a hoot about Platonism, Greek Philosophy, or Jews beliefs about the spirit in man and a living soul that man becomes. I search the Scriptures for answers to God's truth, and do not rely on what man teaches.

One last point you seem to fail to have grasped! Christ, being fully human as well as fully God, gave up His spirit into the Father's hand, because every spirit returns to God when our body dies. But the body of Christ went into the grave and did not resurrect from the grave for three days, and He did not ascend physically to heaven until the day He was taken up physically being seen by His disciples until a cloud received Him out of their sight.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

John 20:17 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Acts 1:2 (KJV) Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:
Acts 1:3 (KJV) To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:

Acts 1:9-11 (KJV) And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

You don't seem to be able to discern the difference between the spirit of Christ that ascended up as soon as He died, and His physical body that was shown alive for forty days after His death, and then His body too was seen ascending up to heaven being ALIVE.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

"the dead know NOTHING (being NON-existent?)"?:

Many do not realize the above (about "the body") is in God's Context of
Prophecy, For Israel, And, IF we:

Rightly Divide (2 Timothy 2:15) it From “Things That Differ” (online)

we find This:

God's Other Context Of His Mystery Program, For The Body Of Christ,
we now know we have A Blessed Hope, and 'may Not' all have to die:

"Behold, I shew you A Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for
the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and
we shall be changed." (1 Corinthians 15:51-52)
+
"For The LORD Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of
the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in [The Body Of] Christ
shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
with them in the clouds, to meet The LORD in the air: and so shall we ever be
with The LORD. Wherefore Comfort one another With These Words."
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-18)

However, IF "we do have to die (sleep In Jesus)" Then we have can Have
Confidence in This Pauline Truth, Correct?:

"For to me to live is Christ, and to die IS GAIN!" (Philippians 1:21)
+
"For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to DEPART {soul},
And To Be WITH CHRIST; which IS FAR BETTER!" (Philippians 1:23)
+
"Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, Who
also hath given unto us The Earnest of The Spirit. Therefore we are
always Confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
we are absent from The LORD: ( For we walk by faith, not by sight: )

We are Confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be Present With The LORD!" (2 Corinthians 5:5-8) Where?:

"...Paradise in The Third Heaven!..." (2Co 12:1-4)

Found no "inaccuracies" In God's Preserved Word, and This Biblical Confirmation,
no critic has explained this (away) yet, that "living souls asleep IN Christ Are With Christ

When He Comes!":

1Th 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even
so them also which sleep in Jesus Will God Bring With Him."

= God (Jesus/Truth), according to critics say:

(GREAT Error) = "DOES BRING With Him those 'who DO NOT exist'???"

How is not existing "gain and far better" = Makes a lot of sense, Correct?

 

[face2face]

You ask me why I don't believe Jesus!

I dont recall asking that.

I could ask you the same thing. Like Martha, you don't understand those who die in Christ physically NEVER die spiritually.

No the remembrance of them is with the Father.

Martha too believed her brother, Lazarus would not live again until the resurrection on the last day. Christ physically raised Lazarus back to life again to prove He has power over death.

Correct, though Lazarus did eventually die a total death.

Then Christ explains to Martha that though Lazarus was indeed physically dead, since he lived and believed in Christ, his death was merely of his body because Lazarus could NEVER die spiritually.

Just your opinion with no Scriptural support.

Clearly Christ was not speaking of physically dying since Lazarus' body had been a lifeless corpse for three days. Christ showed He has the power to return the spirit (breath of life) to the lifeless body of Lazarus, which he did, because even though the body of Lazarus had breathed its last, the spirit or breath of life that returns to God after physical death NEVER died!

I can see you are making more of the breathe of life than the Bible teachers. I've already proven animals and humans share the same breathe. I assume if this Biblical teaching was clearly understood you would also believe animals can be saved and have immortality as well?

If there is complete and total cessation of ALL life after physical death for the one who dies in faith, then Christ would not have said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

That is correct again...I'm not sure you are reading the text all that well rwb.

When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. Col 3:4

Eternal life is not a present possession in any form! Instead, to be bestowed at Christ's second coming upon those raised / gathered: Phi 3:21; 1 Jo 3:2.

But that is the exact words Christ spoke to Martha after her brother physically died. The physical body even of believers is mortal & corruptible and therefore ordained from the fall to die. But the spirit indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies.

No the Spirit Word in the mind of a believer is gone hence the reason for faith!

Since the resurrection of Christ, the spirit, through His Spirit in them ascends to heaven to return to God a spiritual body to be preserved in heaven until the end of this age when our eternal living spirit will be reunited with immortal & incorruptible bodies when Christ comes again.

Again, you have no Scriptual support for your belief...though I sense you will try to force one shortly.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Again the earthly body completely returns to the dust and when raised, judged and rewarded, will have immortality "put on" or clothed, not something which we have now.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Firstly, these verses are not speaking of an ethereal spirit being reunited with a corpse - its the actual body of the person being clothed with immortality - its a change of nature from earthly to divine.

If we adopt your belief, verse 55 makes no sense, as you believe regardless of death the grave is meaningless - in your mind, death has no sting because you live on after death.

See your problem?

For me death has had a victory and a sting, because it is "through" Christ we have the victory over that death upon the resurrection.

Believers will not be physically resurrected to life again until the last trumpet sounds and our body is resurrected to life again through our spirit that returns with Christ from heaven.

You cannot seperate the person from the body - impossible!

Then we shall again be a complete living soul, possessing an eternal spirit that never dies with a body changed from mortal & corruptible to immortal & incorruptible. Then we shall live with Christ forever on the new earth.

Well at least you have the last sentence as being truth!

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

But you dont believe Jesus died right! You can't see that Christ was in a sleep state, until his Father raised him?

and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades (grave). (Rev 1:18)

A few things don't make sense for you here.

1. If Jesus never died, then he is lying.
2. Why make the point that he lives for evermore, if he was always alive (never died)!

You see your issue?

You cannot say that Jesus lives for evermore, unless you were willing to say he was completely and utterly dead! Otherwise the verse makes no sense, and you have robbed it of its fullest meaning.

The consequence of your belief is you have no covenant victim, which by implication means you have no sacrifice / offering that removes your sins.

Revelation 1:18 has far deeper issues for you than you can possibly imagine, but I wont go into that right now.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We have been over this so many times in this forum, I'm amazed you are not up to speed on this text.

This is called cherry picking! You are good at that by the way.

What is the context of the above verse?

2 Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

That is, away from the natural body, and having been rewarded with a spiritual, or immortal, body; as at the judgment.

You see Paul knew what awaited him at the resurrection and judgement!

Henceforth there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will award to me on that day, and not only to me but also to all who have loved his appearing. 2 Tim 4:8

On that day is what Paul is referring to in 2 Corinthians 5 - He understood the death / sleep state would be like the twinkling of an eye in time and that he would be raised and rewarded, not before!

 

[face2face]

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Because physical death of those who die in faith does not mean death of our eternal spirit, kept alive by the power of Christ's Spirit, we are as living soul seen in John's visions of heaven, and he hears these living souls giving praise and glory to God, even through singing. Something of the life of believers after bodily death never dies! And that is the spirit of man kept alive in heaven through Christ's Spirit, because Christ has promised, whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! If our spirit too is without all life as our physical body is after death, then Christ would not say the life we have through Him is eternal spiritual life that will never cease being a living soul as spiritual body in heaven.

Correct, that is that the moral and spiritual excellence of Christ will be revealed in Paul as per Gal 2:20. Stressed because Paul expected martyrdom. Thus he was "filling up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church" (Col 1:24; cp Phi 3:10; 2Co 5:20).

rwb, you have grossly misrepresented that verse! Wow, I haven't seen someone do that to that verse before!

If Paul died a martyr it would be the cessation of his life until "that day!" when Christ raises him and rewards with with a crown of glory.

Can I suggest you not do that again - twist a verse out of context!

 

[face2face]

Because physical death of those who die in faith does not mean death of our eternal spirit, kept alive by the power of Christ's Spirit, we are as living soul seen in John's visions of heaven, and he hears these living souls giving praise and glory to God, even through singing. Something of the life of believers after bodily death never dies! And that is the spirit of man kept alive in heaven through Christ's Spirit, because Christ has promised, whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! If our spirit too is without all life as our physical body is after death, then Christ would not say the life we have through Him is eternal spiritual life that will never cease being a living soul as spiritual body in heaven.

The writer understood the death state which of course applied to himself.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything." "There is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go" (Ecclesiastes 9 v 5, 10).

If we adopted your belief how do you think this verse ought to read?

Nothing separates the person from their body in death....hence the reason for resurrection.

The destination of "where you go" is the reason there is no nothing at all after life.

Ecclesiastes 3 vs. 19-20: "For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no pre-eminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again."

I assume you would also disagree with the writer here as well?

Because you believe you already have immortality, you must either force immortality on the animal kingdom, or write this inspired writer off as being in error!

What's odd about this discussion, is you are like the serpent in the garden who said to Eve, "You shall not surely die", which of course we all know she did, totally and completely, however you teach otherwise, contrary to the Scriptures.

In fact, John 3:13 states, "And no man has ascended up to heaven."

Why?

Because man dies because of sin: "...the soul that sinneth, it shall die." And in Romans 3:23 it states "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Therefore, it follows that all die and become unconscious until the resurrection.

So coming full circle, why for Paul would dying be gain?

You say, he goes up to Heaven, which no man has!
You say, he lives as a Spirit in Heaven, which no man has!

The answer is simple, for Paul if he were to die as a martyr for Christ, he would have full confidence in his Lord's promises:

"For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure. I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day -- and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing" (2Ti 4:6-8). Furthermore, such a death would bear added witness to the gospel Paul had preached.

The promise relates to those who "on that day" will receive their reward?

Now is this consistent with other passages?

These (faithful) were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised, since God had planned something better for us so that only together (with the faithful past) with us, would they be made perfect. Hebrews 11:39,40

So these verses speak to "on that day"...."together" with those who now sleep in the dust of earth, will be raised and rewarded with what was promised AND made perfect!

Not before!

F2F

 

[face2face]

This is true, but we never hear of animals with the Holy Spirit from Christ in them!

The Holy Spirit is not an eternal part of mans nature - have you gone mad? The HS was the power of God bestowed upon man for the purpose of promoting the Gospel with power, after death that ceased!

Only human beings are indwelt with the eternal life-giving Spirit from Christ when we are born again.

You can't prove this as I'm seeing.

It isn't being physically alive that makes our spirit eternally alive through Him. It is only through birth from above, from the Holy Spirit that the spirit in mankind shall NEVER die. That's why Christ tells us "The Kingdom of God is within you." Lu 17:21

Boy rwb, you need to forget all you have been taught and please stop misrepresenting the text.

Luke 17:21 in context is saying the Kingdom is "In the midst of you" (RSV) or "within your grasp" - its not literally in them!

That verse is speaking to Isaiah 12:6 Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion, for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.

Christ is addressing unbelievers, the Pharisees!!!!

I honestly cannot believe you just did that - seriously! The Kingdom of God was not in THEIR hearts rwb! The Kingdom of God was brought near in the person and the preaching of Jesus, yes but not in these unbelievers! (Luke 10:9,11; 11:20).

Can I suggest next time you post - read the chapter, understand the context and seek to know its primary message, before you assign your false doctrines upon it.

The Kingdom of God is the knowledge of it!...being the "Things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" none of which is making alive some ethereal spirit inside a person - enlighten yes, immortal and eternal NO!!!!

F2F

 

[rwb]

face2face​

With all your bloviating and long-winded replies I see you still have no answer for why Christ says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" You appear to not be able to differentiate between the spirit (breath of life) God gives to every creature born upon the earth, and the outward shell made of dust of the earth. The two together are called "living souls"! If the spirit (breath of life) in man indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ ceased to have life after our body breathes its last, Christ would not say believers shall NEVER DIE! Truth is obvious, you do NOT believe Christ!!!

 

[rwb]

The Holy Spirit is not an eternal part of mans nature - have you gone mad? The HS was the power of God bestowed upon man for the purpose of promoting the Gospel with power, after death that ceased!

Of course He isn't! The Holy Spirit in us gives eternal spiritual life of our new nature, not the natural spiritual nature man is born with. Because natural man was dead in trespasses and sins. That's why man must be made alive (quickened) by the Spirit, to know and enter the Kingdom of God. You ask me if I've gone mad, and then demonstrate you don't even know why Christ sent His Spirit to be IN all who believe? How does the Spirit enter into man?

Paul, speaking to living breathing mankind says we were dead in trespasses and sins, and therefore had to be made alive. What was made alive together with Christ by grace through faith? What was dead but made alive by Christ? And how could that which was dead, but made alive together with Christ ever die? Will God change His mind when our body breathes its last? Wasn't that which was dead in trespasses and sins, but made alive together with Christ according to grace through faith or believing in Christ for eternal life?

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-7 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

John 3:15 (KJV) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

I'll end with these verses from Scripture you appear to have no discernment of. They prove that we have access to the Kingdom of God through His Spirit in us. Because "Ye must be born again" to either know or enter the Kingdom of God that is not of this world and is not observable. For the Kingdom of God, through His Spirit in us is within you. And when we have been born again by His Spirit in us, the spiritual life we receive through Him shall never die, for Christ has promised whosoever lives and believes shall NEVER die. Since our body does die, this promise if given through the Holy Spirit within us, giving us eternal spiritual life, that shall never end even though our mortal body dies.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-8 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Luke 17:20-21 (KJV) And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Boy face2face, you need to forget all you have been taught and please stop misrepresenting the text and what I have said.

 

[face2face]

face2face​

With all your bloviating and long-winded replies I see you still have no answer for why Christ says, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" You appear to not be able to differentiate between the spirit (breath of life) God gives to every creature born upon the earth, and the outward shell made of dust of the earth. The two together are called "living souls"! If the spirit (breath of life) in man indwelt with the Holy Spirit from Christ ceased to have life after our body breathes its last, Christ would not say believers shall NEVER DIE! Truth is obvious, you do NOT believe Christ!!!

rwb, do you know whats it's like having to explain to a person the true meaning of the text to only have them skip to the next? then causing me to do this all over again? It's tiring, true! Its frustrating, yes, because you're not even learning from the Masters words and that is most dissatisfying to watch.

Lets take your beloved John 11:26 verse then:

and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

So who and what is Jesus talking to here?

What happens if we read the verse before this one - can that provide context?

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Right, those who are alive at Christ's coming, and those who have already died.

Though he is dead, yet "shall" he live (future tense!)

Here is the problem with your belief - you dont want to accept death, means death! You also resist reading in context and you have absolutely no desire to discover truth.

You have proved that much in our discussion.

rwb, It's resurrection to eternal life - not eternal life to eternal life!!!!

I cannot communicate this an more effectively - if you return with future posts please read the text carefully before posting.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” John 11:24

Yes, Martha you are correct!

 

[face2face]

@rwb you understand that resurrection, comes before life?

You understand John 12:50 And I know that his commandment leads to eternal life.

God's command, accepted, leads to eternal life. Therefore, His command, if rejected, can lead only to eternal death!

This is sound Bible truth.

 

[rwb]

rwb, do you know whats it's like having to explain to a person the true meaning of the text to only have them skip to the next? then causing me to do this all over again? It's tiring, true! Its frustrating, yes, because you're not even learning from the Masters words and that is most dissatisfying to watch.

Lets take your beloved John 11:26 verse then:

and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

So who and what is Jesus talking to here?

What happens if we read the verse before this one - can that provide context?

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,

Right, those who are alive at Christ's coming, and those who have already died.

Though he is dead, yet "shall" he live (future tense!)

Here is the problem with your belief - you dont want to accept death, means death! You also resist reading in context and you have absolutely no desire to discover truth.

You have proved that much in our discussion.

rwb, It's resurrection to eternal life - not eternal life to eternal life!!!!

I cannot communicate this an more effectively - if you return with future posts please read the text carefully before posting.

F2F

In the following passage we find Martha saying to Christ "I know that he shall live again in the resurrection at the last day". Instead of affirming that Martha had spoken truth, Christ tells her "I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: AND WHOSOEVER LIVETH AND BELIEVETH IN ME SHALL NEVER DIE." Christ proves that He has power over physical death by physically raising Lazarus from the dead. But then Christ addresses Martha's lack of understanding for what it means to live and believe in Him. He says "whoever liveth and believeth in ME shall never die"! What does Christ mean since the physical death of Lazarus proves believers die?

John 11:23-26 (KJV) Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Christ is no longer speaking of physically dying, that would make no sense because faithful Lazarus died, and his physical resurrection is proof that we too shall be physically resurrected when the last trump sounds. That which shall never die is eternal life we receive through His Spirit in us when we live and believe. It is our eternal spirit that liveth and believeth in Christ that shall never die. We are all called to examine our own hearts to see if the Spirit abides in us.

Here is the problem with your belief - you don't want to believe Christ when he tells us whosoever lives and believes in Him shall never die. Nor do you want to believe the life we receive through His Spirit in us is eternal (never ending) spiritual life.

 

[rwb]

Martha answered, “I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.” John 11:24

Yes, Martha you are correct!

No, Martha was not correct! Lazarus didn't have to wait for the resurrection that shall be on the last day! He was physically resurrected THAT same day Christ spoke these words to Martha. Since Lazarus physically died again believing in Christ, he shall also be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible on the last day. But until that day, Lazarus and all who live and believe in Christ have eternal life and shall never spiritually die. Through His Spirit in us we have eternal spiritual life, and death of our body cannot take this eternal life from us.

 

[rwb]

@rwb you understand that resurrection, comes before life?

You understand John 12:50 And I know that his commandment leads to eternal life.

God's command, accepted, leads to eternal life. Therefore, His command, if rejected, can lead only to eternal death!

This is sound Bible truth.

No resurrection does not come before life. Having eternal spiritual life when we are born again of His Spirit does not mean we have been resurrected. It means we have partaken of Christ, who is the first resurrection from the dead to never die again. It is by partaking of Christ's resurrection that we live and believe in Him and shall never die.

John 12:44-50 (KJV) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Christ doesn't say whosoever keeps His commandment leads to eternal life. He said "whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness" , "And if any man hear My words and believe not" ...."rejects Me, and receiveth not MY words"...."the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Who shall abide in darkness? Those whose deeds are evil and who love darkness rather than light.

John 3:19 (KJV) And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[face2face]

No, Martha was not correct! Lazarus didn't have to wait for the resurrection that shall be on the last day! He was physically resurrected THAT same day Christ spoke these words to Martha. Since Lazarus physically died again believing in Christ, he shall also be physically resurrected immortal and incorruptible on the last day. But until that day, Lazarus and all who live and believe in Christ have eternal life and shall never spiritually die. Through His Spirit in us we have eternal spiritual life, and death of our body cannot take this eternal life from us.

In the ultimate sense she was, though he was resurrected he is now dead, in the grave like David, and all those faithful awaiting the resurrection to life - Lazarus did not receive that resurrection to eternal life!!...otherwise he would be eternal now! And he is not!

 

[face2face]

No resurrection does not come before life.

So you believe "I am the life, the resurrection and the life?"
I Understand your error

 

[face2face]

Christ doesn't say whosoever keeps His commandment leads to eternal life. He said "whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness" , "And if any man hear My words and believe not" ...."rejects Me, and receiveth not MY words"...."the Word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." Who shall abide in darkness? Those whose deeds are evil and who love darkness rather than light.

Why would you quote a verse that teaches you the Word that quickens your life will happen at the last day? Time and time again, you keep putting up verses that teach you there is a day when the dead will rise and immortality/eternal life is granted?

So what is "the last day"?

The context is far to rigid for you to deny!

Its the day of resurrectional judgment, no way around it!

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.

Note how its the person being referenced and not some lifeless corpse!

For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him [on] the last day.”

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

All applies to those who truly and fully believe will he raised up people to eternal life "at the last day".

Hope that helps

F2F

 

[face2face]

The Holy Spirit is not an eternal part of mans nature - have you gone mad? The HS was the power of God bestowed upon man for the purpose of promoting the Gospel with power, after death that ceased!

You can't prove this as I'm seeing.


Boy rwb, you need to forget all you have been taught and please stop misrepresenting the text.

Luke 17:21 in context is saying the Kingdom is "In the midst of you" (RSV) or "within your grasp" - its not literally in them!

That verse is speaking to Isaiah 12:6 Shout aloud and sing for joy, people of Zion, for great is the Holy One of Israel among you.

Christ is addressing unbelievers, the Pharisees!!!!

I honestly cannot believe you just did that - seriously! The Kingdom of God was not in THEIR hearts rwb! The Kingdom of God was brought near in the person and the preaching of Jesus, yes but not in these unbelievers! (Luke 10:9,11; 11:20).

Can I suggest next time you post - read the chapter, understand the context and seek to know its primary message, before you assign your false doctrines upon it.

The Kingdom of God is the knowledge of it!...being the "Things concerning the Kingdom of God and the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" none of which is making alive some ethereal spirit inside a person - enlighten yes, immortal and eternal NO!!!!

F2F

@rwb be good to see acknowledgement of your misquote here also - shows you have integrity.
F2F