The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus

[amigo de christo]

Dear rwb,
The Lake of Fire is a symbol which represents the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire nor is it eternal. Christ's judgment lasts only as long as it takes for Him to achieve His desired results.

Here is why Christ judges mankind:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Because mankind must be judged to be converted into a child of God, Christ longed to start that process within mankind:

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

All mankind must be judged to be saved:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Conversion requires both the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the baptism of Fire. Without them, we cannot be saved.

Mankind thinks that the purpose of judgment is only to punish, torment or destroy but Christ uses judgment to save us and to teach us His righteousness.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Your understanding of the judgment of Christ is not accurate. Christ loves mankind and He came to save us. It is solely His work to accomplish and it is not dependent upon mankind's work. When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and give them the Holy Spirit. When Christ does this spiritual work within them, they will accept Jesus as "Lord". Salvation does not happen any other way.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe this verse above? No person can accept Jesus as their Lord UNLESS they have the Holy Spirit. This is true because mankind in our created spiritual state cannot know Christ nor will anyone even seek Him out:

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Because of mankind's "marred" created condition, Christ MUST act first by giving us the Spirit. If He does not do this work, a person cannot be saved. Mankind's salvation is totally up to Christ and because He loves us all, He will give us all the free gift of the Spirit at a time of His choosing - a time that satisfies His own purposes and not ours.

In this age, Christ is ONLY saving His First Firsts (the Elect). They were chosen for this honor before the ages began. No one else will be saved in this age. In the final age (what I call the Lake of Fire age), the Elect will be used by Christ to help Him bring in the full harvest of mankind. Only then can God be "all in all" (1Cor 15:28).

Consider what Joel chapter 2 teaches.

The setting of the chapter is the final age (the "Lake of Fire" age). Christ's army in the first part of the chapter represents the Elect who are reigning with Him in judgment over the lost. The lost are being judged by the Law which requires their death (the true penalty of sin). But before they perish, verse 18 says that Christ will pity his people and (v. 23) give them the Early and Latter Rains. With the Early and Latter Rains, the people who are being judged will be "born again". After they are "born again", their judgment will continue until their old spiritual nature is destroyed. Once it is, they will be converted just as the Elect were converted in this age. This is the only way mankind is saved. The old vessel must be destroyed so that the new vessel can be made:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

This verse below tells why Christ has pity (mercy) upon the lost in the final age who are being judged by the Law:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Even though the “lost” of the final age are being judged by the Law which requires their deaths, Christ will NOT forget the "weightier matters of the Law" which are judgment, mercy and faith. Before the "lost" perish, Christ will make them into a new creation, one that has never sinned. That new creation is a child of God.

After Christ has completed His work, mankind will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

This is the true Gospel of Christ.

The gospel which the apostate churches of the world teach is the one Paul warned about that would be coming:

2Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

This "another gospel" is not "good news" for the world - it is a nightmare which never ends.

Like the Pharisees, your beliefs are leaving out the weightier matters of the Law which are judgment, mercy and faith - but Christ will not forget them.

Joe

So why do so many sit under this other false gospel that cannot save them .
The one which says all religoins are serving GOD and that all are fine , lets just come together as one .
ITS A LIE FROM SATAN . NEVER EVER EVER EVER BELIEVE IT .

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
The Lake of Fire is a symbol which represents the judgment of Christ. It is not literal fire nor is it eternal. Christ's judgment lasts only as long as it takes for Him to achieve His desired results.

The desired result of the lake of fire is the "second death." Otherwise, it would not be written of the lake of fire "This is the second death." It is appointed to man to die but "once", after this the judgment. From the fall all mankind is destined to physically die. The only ones in question are those of faith who are still alive at His coming and caught up immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:17), the passage does not tell us they physically die, only that they are caught up to meet the Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We will die physically or be made immortal @ Christ's coming, so what is the second death that is for anyone whose name is not written in the book of life?

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture assures us that those who are overcomers in life shall not be hurt by the second death. And only those who overcome the world are those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. It is only those who reign with Christ in life that have part in the first resurrection on whom the second death has no power.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1 John 5:4-5 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What is this second death through the lake of fire that all who remain in unbelief have not overcome during this age of time, because they die in unbelief? It's death without escape, without hope. The one cast into the lake of fire shall never again have life.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Who so ever makes void the truth , that soul will not prosper . For though hand join in hand and many unite
under a love that cannot save , THE WICKED WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED .
WE BESS STICK TO THE BIBLE my friend . Many are not gonna make it . MANY . The road to hell is very broad
and its ever inclusive and welcomes many and chants a song that many can dance too . FOR its a song
that has given the wicked a false hope . A pipe dream of the piper who has come to steal the hearts of men
under the guise that IT IS GOD and offers unto the world darkness . marvel not . FOR satan is darkness
and yet can appear as an angel of light . satan knows how to use words like love , freedom , tolerance ,
unity and etc , BUT His version of said words will lead one only unto greater darkness , a darkness so great
and yet they will call it light . BUT IF THE LIGHT that is in thee be darkness , HOW GREAT that DARKNESS IS .
ITS TIME to keep it real . MANY are following the voice of what THEY THINK IS GOD , THEY THINK IS LOVE
THEY THINK IS HOPE , THEY THINK IS SALVATION . To them it simply is GOD they believe they hear .
But to to the lambs it is no other than the dragon who by the wisdom of the world is decieving men into greater darkness .

 

[FaithWillDo]

So why do so many sit under this other false gospel that cannot save them .
The one which says all religoins are serving GOD and that all are fine , lets just come together as one .
ITS A LIE FROM SATAN . NEVER EVER EVER EVER BELIEVE IT .

Dear amigo de christo,
You have no understanding of what I presented in my post. The only pathway to salvation comes to mankind SOLELY by the work of Christ. Mankind cannot save themselves and are completely reliant upon Christ for their salvation.

You should read my post again.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

The desired result of the lake of fire is the "second death." Otherwise, it would not be written of the lake of fire "This is the second death." It is appointed to man to die but "once", after this the judgment. From the fall all mankind is destined to physically die. The only ones in question are those of faith who are still alive at His coming and caught up immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:17), the passage does not tell us they physically die, only that they are caught up to meet the Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We will die physically or be made immortal @ Christ's coming, so what is the second death that is for anyone whose name is not written in the book of life?

Revelation 20:14-15 (KJV) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Scripture assures us that those who are overcomers in life shall not be hurt by the second death. And only those who overcome the world are those who believe that Jesus is the Son of God. It is only those who reign with Christ in life that have part in the first resurrection on whom the second death has no power.

Revelation 2:11 (KJV) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

1 John 5:4-5 (KJV) For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

What is this second death through the lake of fire that all who remain in unbelief have not overcome during this age of time, because they die in unbelief? It's death without escape, without hope. The one cast into the lake of fire shall never again have life.

Dear rwb,
You said:
The desired result of the lake of fire is the "second death." Otherwise, it would not be written of the lake of fire "This is the second death." It is appointed to man to die but "once", after this the judgment. From the fall all mankind is destined to physically die. The only ones in question are those of faith who are still alive at His coming and caught up immortal and incorruptible to meet the Lord in the air (1Th 4:17), the passage does not tell us they physically die, only that they are caught up to meet the Lord.

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

We will die physically or be made immortal @ Christ's coming, so what is the second death that is for anyone whose name is not written in the book of life?

Everyone is going to die in the Lake of Fire because all mankind has sinned. We are ALL (100% of mankind) "condemned already":

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

The only ones who "believeth on Him" are those who have been converted into a child of God. In this age, they are called the Elect. They were judged in the Lake of Fire when they were converted.

Do you not know that we must be converted to be saved?

To be converted, Christ must baptize us with the Spirit and with Fire. I pointed out that verse in my previous post.

These verses also teach that mankind is condemned already and must die:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Mankind is the "corn" and the "sword" is God's Word (Christ). Mankind has sinned and is condemned already. We must die so that we can be "born again". This is conversion and is what all mankind must experience in order to be saved.

You said that after the fall, all mankind was destined to physically die. That is true. But all mankind must spiritually die, too. The "marred" spiritual nature must be destroyed and be replaced with the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit.

Judgment in the Lake of Fire is how Christ destroys the old carnal spiritual nature. The Elect are first to spiritually die and then the rest of mankind will spiritually die in the final age. However, before our spiritual death occurs, we will be born again and will become a child of God who has never sinned.

Also, a person's salvation occurs at the Second Coming of Christ.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The second coming of Christ is not a one-time future event as most believe. It is a reoccurring spiritual event. In this age, Christ's second coming is when He comes to person to baptize them with the Spirit. After their new birth, the baptism of Fire (Day of the Lord) will begin for them. After the baptism of fire in the Lake of Fire is completed, the person will be converted.

In the final age, Christ will convert the rest of mankind. In that age, that death is called the second death and is why scripture says that second death can't hurt the Elect who have already been converted. They experienced the first death before they physically died.

The Elect will reign with Christ in the final age over the "lost" in the Lake of Fire. The Elect's purpose is to help Christ bring in the harvest of the rest of mankind. In that harvest, the chaff (the carnal spiritual nature of mankind) will be burned (judged) and the wheat (child of God) will be harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Elect are the First Fruits of that harvest. They are harvested early in this age. The Feast of First Fruits (Weeks) is a foreshadowing of this early harvest.

The rest of mankind will be harvested at the end of the growing season (the end of the final age, consummation of the ages). The Feast of Tabernacles is a foreshadowing of this final harvest.

Look what Christ said when He attended the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

This same call is repeated in Revelation with some additional information added:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

The "Bride" is a symbol which represents the Elect. This event will bring in the full harvest of mankind in the final age.

You said:
What is this second death through the lake of fire that all who remain in unbelief have not overcome during this age of time, because they die in unbelief? It's death without escape, without hope. The one cast into the lake of fire shall never again have life.

Yes, the Lake of Fire is death without escape for all mankind. The Elect in this age and the rest in the final age will experience this death. But before a person dies, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the FREE gift of the Holy Spirit. He gives them the gift because of His GRACE and not because of anything the person did in life (because there is nothing they can do to earn it).

The pathway to salvation is the same for all - all mankind is condemned already so all mankind must die and be reborn as a child of God.

Do you understand conversion now and do you understand why it is necessary for our salvation?

Joe

 

[rwb]

Here is why Christ judges mankind:

Christ came not to judge the world but to save it! Christ sent His Spirit to reprove the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, of sin BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME! The Spirit judges the world of sin by the Word (Gospel) preached. Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the power of the Word and Spirit. Whosoever believes, has eternal spiritual life!

John 12:44-50 (KJV) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 16:7-11 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Christ came not to judge the world but to save it! Christ sent His Spirit to reprove the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment, of sin BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE NOT ON ME! The Spirit judges the world of sin by the Word (Gospel) preached. Faith comes by hearing and hearing through the power of the Word and Spirit. Whosoever believes, has eternal spiritual life!

John 12:44-50 (KJV) Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

John 16:7-11 (KJV) Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Dear rwb,
You said:
Christ came not to judge the world but to save it!

Yes, that is true. And this purpose took Christ to the cross.

But after His resurrection from the grave, the New Covenant began and in that covenant, Christ will start judging mankind to convert us.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire (judgment), and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

The Elect are first to be judged:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Then the rest of mankind is judged in the final age.

Joe

 

[rwb]

Everyone is going to die in the Lake of Fire because all mankind has sinned. We are ALL (100% of mankind) "condemned already":

Why do you think the Father sent His Son to give everlasting life to whoever believes? We are all in the same condemnation....BUT GOD! Christ will save to the uttermost whosoever turns to Him, believing! That's why we read, "by grace you have been saved" "by grace through faith that is not your own but the gift of God". All who believe have eternal life through Him. Having eternal life we have no fear of the second death through the lake of fire.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

The only ones who "believeth on Him" are those who have been converted into a child of God. In this age, they are called the Elect. They were judged in the Lake of Fire when they were converted.

None are judged through the lake of fire until they are called before God at the Great White Throne Judgment! There they shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

The only qualification for salvation is "Ye must be born again" to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. This comes by grace through faith, not of our own, but the gift of God.

The elect of God are those whom He did foreknow, also did predestinate, and called - "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"

Romans 8:29-33 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The elect of God, whosoever believes in Him have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him, predestinated to adoption of children by Jesus Christ, according to His good pleasure. In whom we have redemption through His blood THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace.

Ephesians 1:3-7 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
You said:
Christ came not to judge the world but to save it!

Yes, that is true. And this purpose took Christ to the cross.

But after His resurrection from the grave, the New Covenant began and in that covenant, Christ will start judging mankind to convert us.

John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire (judgment), and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

The Elect are first to be judged:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Then the rest of mankind is judged in the final age.

Joe

Judging those who profess Christ in this life to know if they are of THE faith is not the same as the final Judgment that shall come at the GWTJ. Believers too must go through trials and testing of our faith as by fire in this world, knowing this works for patience for His own children.

Hebrews 12:4-8 (KJV) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

James 1:3 (KJV) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Why do you think the Father sent His Son to give everlasting life to whoever believes? We are all in the same condemnation....BUT GOD! Christ will save to the uttermost whosoever turns to Him, believing! That's why we read, "by grace you have been saved" "by grace through faith that is not your own but the gift of God". All who believe have eternal life through Him. Having eternal life we have no fear of the second death through the lake of fire.

Hebrews 7:25 (KJV) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.


None are judged through the lake of fire until they are called before God at the Great White Throne Judgment! There they shall be judged according to what is written in the books and the book of life.

The only qualification for salvation is "Ye must be born again" to both know and enter the Kingdom of God. This comes by grace through faith, not of our own, but the gift of God.

The elect of God are those whom He did foreknow, also did predestinate, and called - "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect?"

Romans 8:29-33 (KJV) For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

The elect of God, whosoever believes in Him have been chosen in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blame before Him, predestinated to adoption of children by Jesus Christ, according to His good pleasure. In whom we have redemption through His blood THE FORGIVENESS OF SINS, according to the riches of His grace.

Ephesians 1:3-7 (KJV) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Dear rwb,
You said:
None are judged through the lake of fire until they are called before God at the Great White Throne Judgment!

Not true. All mankind is judged by fire in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation chapter 19 shows the judgment of the Elect in the Lake of Fire.

In that chapter, the Elect are saved first (Marriage of the Lamb) and then fed truth (Marriage Supper of the Lamb). Next, the new bride (new child of God) rides with Christ to judge the Man of Sin/False Prophet and Great Harlot which were "taken" from the Elect believer and cast into the Lake of Fire (final two verses of chapter 19).

These verses apply:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (one flesh, one believer) be in the field; the one shall be taken (Man of Sin/False Prophet), and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken (Great Harlot), and the other left (child of God).

The conversion of the Elect is fully presented in chapter 19 and it happens BEFORE the bodily resurrections occur in chapter 20.

At the beginning of chapter 20, it calls the Elect's conversion the "First Resurrection". This is a spiritual resurrection when they are born again as a child of God.

Chapter 20 then continues and presents the bodily resurrections of all mankind (Rev 20:11-15) who appear before the White Throne. The Elect believers (who are now converted into children of God) are found in the Book of Life. They are the sheep who are separated from the goats (Mat 25:32). The rest of mankind (the goats) will not be found in the Book of Life so they are cast into the Lake of Fire at the end of chapter 20. Next, chapter 21 presents the resurrected Elect (Bride) and describes them as the New Jerusalem. No details of the judgment of the "lost" are presented in the book. The final chapter of Revelation ends with Christ and His new Bride making a call to the "lost" in the Lake of Fire to come a drink from the waters of life. This is when Christ as "pity" on them (Joel 2:18) and gives them the Early and Latter Rains (Joel 2:23) just as He did earlier for the Elect. Christ does this because of His grace. This is how Christ administers the weightier matters of the Law which are judgment, mercy and faith.

After the last person is saved, it can then be testified to be true that all who died in Adam have been made alive in Christ:

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming (the Elect). 24 Then cometh the consummation (the rest of mankind), when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Why can't you properly understand and believe this scripture?

Do you really believe that Christ will fail to accomplish the mission His Father gave Him?

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

And why can't you believe that Christ will fulfill His desire to save mankind?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Where is your faith to believe what Christ says, regardless of whether or not you understand His plan for saving mankind?

I asked these questions for your benefit and not mine because I already know the answers according to God's Word.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Judging those who profess Christ in this life to know if they are of THE faith is not the same as the final Judgment that shall come at the GWTJ. Believers too must go through trials and testing of our faith as by fire in this world, knowing this works for patience for His own children.

Hebrews 12:4-8 (KJV) Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

James 1:3 (KJV) Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

Dear rwb,
You said:
Judging those who profess Christ in this life to know if they are of THE faith is not the same as the final Judgment that shall come at the GWTJ.

You are partially right - the judgment in the final age will be different BUT the outcome will be the same.

Let me explain:

When the Elect are judged during this age, they are not judged in wrath because they are "born again" PRIOR to their judgment. For that reason, the Man of Sin/False Prophet and Great Harlot are removed (taken) from the believer and are judged separately in the Lake of Fire. This happens because the child of God (who is born prior to judgment falling) is sinless and will not be judged.

However, for the "lost" of the final age, they are not "born again" PRIOR to being judged. They will experience the wrath of their judgment. But even so, Christ will still have mercy upon them before they perish in the Lake of Fire. At that time, Christ will give them a new birth just like He did for the Elect. Their old vessel will continue to its destruction in the Lake of Fire but new child of God will begin life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

After the last person is saved, the ages will come to an end and God will be "all in all".

As I said before, your beliefs are leaving out the weightier matters of the Law which are judgment, mercy and faith. Christ will not forget to to administer them to the "lost" in the final age. He is God and He does not change.

Joe

 

[face2face]

While I agree the body that dies whether with or without the Spirit of Christ within them, that body none-the-less is a corpse! Why? Because the spirit given to every living, breathing creature returns to God after the body dies. So, yes, I agree the corpse of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob like every other physical corpse returns to the earth when the body breathes its last.

But that is not the end for men/women who die with the Spirit from Christ within them. Christ tells us that when we live and believe in Him we shall never die.

Correct - even in death their lives are hid with Christ
For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Col 3:3
True in the physical and spiritual sense!

In fact Christ says the life we receive through Him is eternal life.

Correct. The Word of God is eternal and it is this which gives life!
My words are Spirit and life John 6:63
This of course does not mean anything lives on after death

He says this knowing our bodies are all destined to death. But when we have eternal life through Christ, though our outward body becomes a corpse, our spirit returns to God who gave it.

No, our breath leaves us and we are said to be asleep in Christ.
Then he told them, “Our friend Lazarus is asleep, and I am going there to wake him up.” They replied, “Lord, if he is asleep, he will get better.” Jesus really meant that Lazarus was dead, but they thought he was talking only about sleep. John 11
Death in the Bible always speaks of the total and utter cessation of life.
If you knew how many Christians in this forum have tried in vain to prove an ethereal spirit lives on after death you would give up before you even started.

John 14:16 (KJV) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 (KJV) Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Comforter is a great study one which I should start a thread on soon. But nothing here of people going to heaven when they die or immortal souls living on after death.

John 11:26 (KJV) And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Correct - for one who is in Christ though dead are seen to be asleep until the resurrection.

Galatians 6:8 (KJV) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

True. The judgement will see many rewarded with immortality.

to those who by patience in well-doing SEEK for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; Romans 2:7

You dont seek for something you already have!

John 6:63 (KJV) It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Yes same breathe as the animals - no difference

19 Surely the fate of human beings is like that of the animals; the same fate awaits them both: As one dies, so dies the other. All have the same breath; humans have no advantage over animals. Everything is meaningless.

All have the same spirit!

The spirit that gives life to our mortal body will become a lifeless corpse when our breath of life (spirit) returns to God after death. Will the spirit in man have the Spirit from Christ still in them when they physically die, or will the spirit given to every human return to God in heaven without life? Many verses found in Scripture show man is far more then a mortal shell dust of the earth. There is still spiritual eternal life after physical death, if the spirit of man returns to God indwelt with the life-giving Spirit from Christ.

Way off course here!

If you want to attempt to show a plain teaching of an ethereal spirit living on after death, feel free to try - good luck! All have failed.

Even this post offers no evidence whatsoever.

The death state is complete and total cessation of life.

I believe the PARABLE of Lazarus and the rich man also proves this. I believe both you and Faith Will Do have shown how the PARABLE should be understood. Jesus is teaching, using symbolic or factious narrative to show us the way He has called us to live our lives by loving others more than ourselves or anything of the world. In this Christ promises eternal life to all who believe Him, and condemnation and suffering for those who do evil and remain in unbelief.

The Parable as this thread has proved Jesus Christ using the Pharisees own false beliefs to judge them as being unworthy of salvation. Not all! Only those who blasphemed the Holy Spirit by denying the Power of God through Jesus Christ their Messiah.

There is nothing literal in this parable at all....which is why there is noting like it anywhere in the Scripture!

F2F

 

[face2face]

Spirit is defined - a current of air, i.e. breath (blast) or a breeze;

Correct.

At creation God tells us He created man's body from the dust of the earth and then He breathed life (spirit) into them, and the body with spirit became a living soul.

Correct. God gave man his first breathe and he became a living breathing creature (same as the animals)

 

[amigo de christo]

Dear amigo de christo,
You have no understanding of what I presented in my post. The only pathway to salvation comes to mankind SOLELY by the work of Christ. Mankind cannot save themselves and are completely reliant upon Christ for their salvation.

You should read my post again.

Joe

It was a reminder is all . JESUS sheep hear His voice , they BELIEVE IN HE as the CHRIST
and will not follow the path of any other religoin . THEY know all other religoins are false .
Now if we dont know that , then we aint His sheep . These are just reminders , not accusations against you at all .
I have long been at war with an ever increasing end hour lie . The lie which says
all paths lead to GOD , all religoins serve the same God we do . IT IS A LIE , but many are now buying into that lie .
Not on this wettos watch . I expose pope francis and all those protestants who been doing this
abraham convenant lie , this brotherhood lie junk . The man might be smiley and nice , but hims a wolf dressed up indeed .

 

[Pierac]

IT IS NOT A PARABLE!
This is not symbolic language, and is to be taken literally. Why?
Parables DO NOT include specific names of real people, like Abraham, nor his spiritual location. Prior to Christ death and resurrection, Sheol was divided into two locations, one for the faithful to God and the other for the unfaithful, wicked reprobates.
It is also clear that the Rich man and Lazarus are real souls as well.

The Rich man's location is therefore real.

>Why describe two separate and distinct locations that exist after death _ in detail _ to symbolize something else if they did not exist?
>What moral truth would be gained from something abstract?

Jesus' parables were always about common experiences that people could relate to and draw meaning out of. His parables did not use detailed descriptions of fictional, abstract territories!

The message to all is a stark warning. This Rich man died and went to a place of loneliness, fire and torment. This wasn't his grave or tomb. He didn't become extinct when he died nor was he asleep. He was conscious! He asks for water, a drop, because when Lazarus was alive, he begged for scraps of food. Notice how the Rich man's pride is no longer with him - he is humbled. I don't know if it's real humility or just an act of manipulation? He was hoping for mercy, to receive more than a drop. When he realized there would be no relief for him, he asked Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers ( who were also real people) to warn them of this place.
> Abraham also made it clear that these two locations were separated by a gulf(chasm) that no one from either location could pass over!

> The last line of the story points to another reality and parallel to this story, Jesus death and resurrection.

This whole story alludes also to judgments throughout the Bible that speak of fire and torment that ultimately leads to destruction. There is no hope for that Rich man or anyone else who is cast there, no second chance, no Purgatory, no, no redemption. This is what death means without faith in God, which is the primary reason we have a Savior. But we must believe that He is our Savior.

Sorry my Friend.... It's a Parable.. a Fact taught to us by Scripture.... Do you believe scripture?

Mat 13:34 All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

Mat 13:35 This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet: "I WILL OPEN MY MOUTH IN PARABLES; I WILL UTTER THINGS HIDDEN SINCE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD."

Mar 4:2 And He was teaching them many things in parables, and was saying to them in His teaching,

I can go on for many many more verses that teach the same...

You fail to see.... Why is the rich man in torment and the poor man in Abraham’s bosom?

According to you Jesus is teaching being rich is a path to Hell, and Being poor a path to heaven.... Behavior/beliefs matters not.... Just being Rich or poor.... Note.... No sin or good deeds are applied to either.... Think about this.... This is not a Heaven or Hell story.... It's much deeper....

Really people think!!!

 

[rwb]

Way off course here!

If you want to attempt to show a plain teaching of an ethereal spirit living on after death, feel free to try - good luck! All have failed.

Even this post offers no evidence whatsoever.

The death state is complete and total cessation of life.

You ask me why I don't believe Jesus! I could ask you the same thing. Like Martha, you don't understand those who die in Christ physically NEVER die spiritually. Martha too believed her brother, Lazarus would not live again until the resurrection on the last day. Christ physically raised Lazarus back to life again to prove He has power over death. Then Christ explains to Martha that though Lazarus was indeed physically dead, since he lived and believed in Christ, his death was merely of his body because Lazarus could NEVER die spiritually. Clearly Christ was not speaking of physically dying since Lazarus' body had been a lifeless corpse for three days. Christ showed He has the power to return the spirit (breath of life) to the lifeless body of Lazarus, which he did, because even though the body of Lazarus had breathed its last, the spirit or breath of life that returns to God after physical death NEVER died!

If there is complete and total cessation of ALL life after physical death for the one who dies in faith, then Christ would not have said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" But that is the exact words Christ spoke to Martha after her brother physically died. The physical body even of believers is mortal & corruptible and therefore ordained from the fall to die. But the spirit indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies. Since the resurrection of Christ, the spirit, through His Spirit in them ascends to heaven to return to God a spiritual body to be preserved in heaven until the end of this age when our eternal living spirit will be reunited with immortal & incorruptible bodies when Christ comes again.

1 Corinthians 15:35 (KJV) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:44-50 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Believers will not be physically resurrected to life again until the last trumpet sounds and our body is resurrected to life again through our spirit that returns with Christ from heaven. Then we shall again be a complete living soul, possessing an eternal spirit that never dies with a body changed from mortal & corruptible to immortal & incorruptible. Then we shall live with Christ forever on the new earth.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 (KJV) But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Since the physical body of every human return to dust after death, what part of man will God bring with Him from heaven of them who have physically died in faith? It is the eternal spirit in men/women of faith that returns with Christ alive, having been preserved ALIVE in heaven a spiritual soul, or still having life that never ended even though the physical body is dead and gone. That's why Paul longed for death of his physical body, so that he could be spiritually alive with Christ in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6-8 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Because physical death of those who die in faith does not mean death of our eternal spirit, kept alive by the power of Christ's Spirit, we are as living soul seen in John's visions of heaven, and he hears these living souls giving praise and glory to God, even through singing. Something of the life of believers after bodily death never dies! And that is the spirit of man kept alive in heaven through Christ's Spirit, because Christ has promised, whosoever lives and believes in Him shall NEVER die! If our spirit too is without all life as our physical body is after death, then Christ would not say the life we have through Him is eternal spiritual life that will never cease being a living soul as spiritual body in heaven.

 

[rwb]

Correct.

Correct. God gave man his first breathe and he became a living breathing creature (same as the animals)

This is true, but we never hear of animals with the Holy Spirit from Christ in them! Only human beings are indwelt with the eternal life-giving Spirit from Christ when we are born again. It isn't being physically alive that makes our spirit eternally alive through Him. It is only through birth from above, from the Holy Spirit that the spirit in mankind shall NEVER die. That's why Christ tells us "The Kingdom of God is within you." Lu 17:21

 

[GRACE ambassador]

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Amen! "Far Better" does not mean (Great Error) cease to exist!!:

Mar_12:27 He is not The God of the dead, but The God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

Luk_20:38 For He is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto Him.

Simple, Amen!

 

[Pierac]

You ask me why I don't believe Jesus! I could ask you the same thing. Like Martha, you don't understand those who die in Christ physically NEVER die spiritually. Martha too believed her brother, Lazarus would not live again until the resurrection on the last day. Christ physically raised Lazarus back to life again to prove He has power over death. Then Christ explains to Martha that though Lazarus was indeed physically dead, since he lived and believed in Christ, his death was merely of his body because Lazarus could NEVER die spiritually. Clearly Christ was not speaking of physically dying since Lazarus' body had been a lifeless corpse for three days. Christ showed He has the power to return the spirit (breath of life) to the lifeless body of Lazarus, which he did, because even though the body of Lazarus had breathed its last, the spirit or breath of life that returns to God after physical death NEVER died!

If there is complete and total cessation of ALL life after physical death for the one who dies in faith, then Christ would not have said, "And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" But that is the exact words Christ spoke to Martha after her brother physically died. The physical body even of believers is mortal & corruptible and therefore ordained from the fall to die. But the spirit indwelt with the Spirit from Christ NEVER dies. Since the resurrection of Christ, the spirit, through His Spirit in them ascends to heaven to return to God a spiritual body to be preserved in heaven until the end of this age when our eternal living spirit will be reunited with immortal & incorruptible bodies when Christ comes again....

Look.... many here... Not saying... it's you... But many have no clue of what the bible teaches.... They prefer to sit and soak in church with no input form others just the pastor... believing what they are told... YET... Your post.... is not Biblical... but the traditions of men... allow me to explain... Read slowly... It requires you to think!!!

The spirit is not the same as the soul. The Soul does not immediately return to God, but the Spirit does! As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches! (see below) Read Psalms 146:4 Note these verses below do not teach that only the body returns to the earth but also his “thoughts” or (mental life) perishes.

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Other verses are…

(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit” they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches…

(Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul as the Westminster Confession teaches. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father. Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul
died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

Thus....Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him(Jesus) to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


Read this post again... as Satan has already taken the truth from you...before you even finished reading this post! Mark 4:15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

I'm not kidding.... Read this post at least 3 times... Satan is at your door....
Paul

 

[FaithWillDo]

Look.... many here... Not saying... it's you... But many have no clue of what the bible teaches.... They prefer to sit and soak in church with no input form others just the pastor... believing what they are told... YET... Your post.... is not Biblical... but the traditions of men... allow me to explain... Read slowly... It requires you to think!!!

The spirit is not the same as the soul. The Soul does not immediately return to God, but the Spirit does! As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches! (see below) Read Psalms 146:4 Note these verses below do not teach that only the body returns to the earth but also his “thoughts” or (mental life) perishes.

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Other verses are…

(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma.

"Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).

In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit” they die.

Examples:

Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:

"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. Where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32:

"And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.

Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches…

(Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul as the Westminster Confession teaches. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my father. Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul
died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches.

Thus....Act 2:32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Act 3:26 "For you first, God raised up His Servant and sent Him(Jesus) to bless you by turning every one of you from your wicked ways."


Read this post again... as Satan has already taken the truth from you...before you even finished reading this post! Mark 4:15 "These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.

I'm not kidding.... Read this post at least 3 times... Satan is at your door....
Paul

Dear Pierac,
I read your post and I found it scripturally accurate.

I also strongly agree with your comments on Christ being dead for three days. Unlike what most Christians believe, Christ actually did "die" for the sins of the world.

Here is what I understand from scripture about life and death as presented in a simple formula:

SPIRIT + BODY = A LIVING SOUL

Mankind does not possess a "soul", we are a "soul". Also, when the body dies, our soul dies and our spirit then returns to God. At this point, we are dead and have no consciousness. We will remain in this state of death until the resurrection from the grave occurs at the end of this literal age.

Joe