So, in a nutshell, Hidden In Him, is your point of contention predestination in and of itself, and also, single predestination versus double predestination?
Grace and peace to you.
Grace and peace to you.
The Parable Of The Wedding Banquet
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
This is actually an article of faith within Judaism. There's a line in the Mishnah:
All Israel has a share in the World to Come.
But then it goes on to list certain sins that get you cut off from Israel, such as believing Moses didn't write the Torah, or being an Epicurean, i.e. a deist who believes God is not interested in the affairs of this world. Where you see being "cut-off" from the people as punishment in the Old Testament, it's being cut-off from the World to Come. Serious stuff.
Predestination in and of itself, at least as relates to the salvation issue. I believe some are indeed predestined for callings and purposes in this life according to the will of God, but even they still hold their eternal fate in their own hands, depending on how they choose to handle the hand they are dealt.
But since you are a gracious conversationalist, if there are any passages you wish to discuss together, feel free to post them. I care very little for exchanging opinions, but I am always deeply interested in discussing the actual scriptures on an issue.
Blessings and peace to you as well.
- H
This is exactly as I see it! I see the one who tries to enter the wedding feast as looking to enter in on his OWN righteousness and not on Christs. And also, agreed the original ones who were first were invited were the Jews who rejected Christ when He first came...AND for them exclusively too... until they rejected Him. Then the Goyim (LOL) were invited, in comes Paul! :)
Let me give you an example of why I think the doctrine of predestined salvation is mistakenly read into passages when it is not actually there. Often it is because of a misunderstanding of what the Greek is actually saying.
For instance, in Revelation 17:8 we read the following:
8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss, and go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, their names of whom were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, which was, and is not, and will be present.
Now, when it states, "their names of whom were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world," the verb here for "were [not] written" ([οὐ] γέγραπται) is in perfect indicative middle. Now the interesting thing here is that middle voice reflects back on itself in some way. Some define the principle by saying, "the middle voice seems to mean to get something done to/for oneself or get oneself in some condition." Others simply say that in the middle voice, "the subject acts upon himself or herself." Often when it is used of human beings, it it translated using the word "himself," i.e. "he hit himself, he exposed himself" etc. In Luke 12:15, the middle voice is translated "guard yourselves from all covetousness" (φυλάσσεσθε ἀπὸ πάσης πλεονεξίας).
Now, when the subject doing the action is an inanimate object, the translation changes somewhat to something more suitable. The subject still acts upon itself, but the sense is no longer transitive. For instance, the phrase in Matthew 17:2 - τὰ δὲ ἱμάτια αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο λευκὰ ὡς τὸ φῶς can be translated as either "His garments were white as light" or "His garments became white as light." (Matthew 17:2).
This is what is happening in Revelation 17:8. It is likewise in middle voice, and the translation can rightly be either "whose names were not written" or "whose names became not written." Translating it as "became not written" is not natural in English, so it is not used, but it is what they are actually communicating by the translation "whose names were not written." It makes it sound like it is a past tense, passive verb but it is not. It is a middle voice verb acting back upon itself, hence the actual meaning is "they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names did not become written (literally, became not written) in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world." This changes the potential meaning of what the verse is saying. It can mean that their names were not written from the foundation of the earth into the book of life, or it can mean that the book existed from the foundation of the world and their names never came to be written in it (true middle voice, with the subject acting back upon itself).
Just spending a little time here. Let me know your thoughts, and thanks again for the polite discussion.
- H
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PinSeeker, I think I'm gonna try and lay off on serious discussion till after the weekend, so if you decide to wait to respond, I'll get back to you then.
God bless,
- H
God's Israel, Enoch, was never consisted of ethnic Jews only. Even in the Old Testament, there were foreigners brought into the covenant community of Israel, which foreshadowed what was to eventually to come (Gentile believers being grafted in). Paul is very clear about Israel in Romans, especially chapter 2 and chapter 11. And all through all his writings, he says things like, for example:
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise." (Galatians 3:28-29)
In Romans 2, Paul says:
"For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." (Romans 2:28-29)
And finally, in Romans 11, Paul says:
"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (11:25-26)
And you must know that Peter, in 1 Peter 2, in addressing both Jews and Gentiles ~ all those who are in Christ ~ writes to all of them in the same words that God used in addressing Israel in Deuteronomy:
"...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." (1 Peter 2:9-10)
So, yes, it does address the issue of the elect being chosen for salvation, all the elect, all true Jews, all of God's Israel. The ones who are true Jews and of God's Israel, which includes ethnic Jews and Gentiles. Circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter (Romans 2:28). What's more, God will call each one, at his or her appointed time, by the work of the Holy Spirit, Who, like the wind, blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes... this is new birth in the Spirit (John 3:8).
God's Israel is not a meritocracy. Election, of God and by God, is unconditional in the respect that nothing we do beforehand merits salvation in any way. It is a gift, so that no one may boast (Ephesians 2:8-10). It is conditional on one thing and one thing only, and that's God Himself, and whether he has mercy and compassion on the person (or not) ~ it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy (Romans 9:16).
And His saving grace is irresistible in the sense that once God purposes to do this (have mercy, compassion), nothing ~ absolutely nothing, even the person who receives it ~ can do to thwart it. Nothing can thwart His purposes, as Job says (42:2). Once a person's heart is changed by the work of the Spirit ~ his heart of stone is removed and replaces with a heart of flesh, as Ezekiel puts it (11:19, 36:26) ~ the new believer cannot but choose God ~ well, he could, but because he or she is then of God., will always choose Him (and Jesus), because he or she loves God because God first loved him/her (1 John 4:19). The heart drives the will; a person cannot help but follow his or her heart. Back to Romans 8 again, Paul writes:
"For those whom He foreknew..." ('knew' in the same sense that, for example, Adam knew Eve and Eve bore Cain and then Abel because of it; Genesis 4, so 'foreknew' is synonymous with foreloved, or loved beforehand, chose, before the foundation of the world) "...He also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)
Without exception. No one God calls and places in Christ is not eventually glorified; the result of God's call and placement of the person in Christ is always, without exception, glorification. They are the redeemed of the Lord:
"...the ransomed/redeemed of the LORD shall return and come to Zion with singing; everlasting joy shall be upon their heads; they shall obtain gladness and joy, and sorrow and sighing shall flee away." (Isaiah 35:10)
"...neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 8:38-39)
This is how salvation works. This is who does what" in salvation. Salvation is of the Lord.
Grace and peace to you, my friend.
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That is incorrect. Here is what we read in Exodus 19:
3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; 4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself. 5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
The "house of Jacob" and "the children of Israel" are EXCLUSIVELY ethnic Jews from the twelve tribes. Now according to Reformed Theology, since this was divine election for "the children of Israel" (a) irresistible grace would have guaranteed that Israel would obey God (as required) and thus (b) all Israel would be saved. After all the so-called "elect" of Calvinism all obey the Gospel and are therefore guaranteed to be saved. The fact that Israel (by and large) rejected Jesus of Nazareth proves that TULIP is false. Q.E.D.
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Mmm... maybe. As a hermeneutical technique, I would normally not import 16th century Reformed theological concepts that are based on the Pauline writings when interpreting a first-century parable in the Gospels. But you could be right. More disturbing is the possibility Ronald brought up that the guest didn't have on formal wedding clothes because he wasn't invited and just showed up to mooch the free food. I don't like the possibility that there may be people who just aren't invited to the feast and will be thrown out if they do show up. Sucks to be them.
Relating to Predestination, I also find Romans 11:26 disturbing in that it implies that Messiah being rejected by His kinsman was not a free-will rejection but rather a mass hardening of heart caused by God in order to bring the Nations into His family. How can the Jewish people be held responsible for what was God's doing?
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I do understand it was God's plan all along to bring in the Gentiles, and I do know there are verses in the OT pertaining to that, just couldn't remember where they were.
Far as the predestination goes...I cannot bear the thought of ANY being cast into hell for no fault of their own. If I thought we had a God who did do this, I would most likely never have become a Christian. Many of us were raised believing and being taught that our God is good, and that He loves us. If I thought He did NOT love me, there would be no hesitation on my part to leave this disgusting world at my own hand. If I cannot have Him, there IS nothing left
Lambano
Well-Known Member
He says, “It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the protected ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth.” (Isaiah 49:6)
Romans 9:25
"...as He also says in Hosea: “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, ‘MY PEOPLE,’ AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, ‘BELOVED."
I do believe this is not speaking of the Northern tribes but of Gentiles.
Hm, wonder why NASB has all those CAPS?!
Lambano
Well-Known Member
When the NT writers quote the OT, the NASB puts the quotes in uppercase. Editorial convention.
Paul draws the same conclusion you do, as the preceding verse 24 setting up the Hosea quote says. However, for Paul as a Jew, the conclusion that his "kinsmen according to the flesh" could lose their status as God's People is devastating and brings into play the possibility that God is unfaithful to His promise in Deuteronomy 7:6 I quoted earlier. If God can be unfaithful to His promises, nobody's salvation is safe. Paul concludes in chapter 11:
28 In relation to the gospel they are enemies on your account, but in relation to God’s choice they are beloved on account of the fathers; 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut up all in disobedience, so that He may show mercy to all. (Romans 11:28-32)
How that plays out for individuals, I'll leave open for now.
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Well as the original poster asked to not focus on that part, I have refrained at his request.
But if the Acts verse was the only inkling in SWcripture about election, Irresistible grace and being predestined, I would agree with you 100%, but it isn't so I disagree respectfully.
Nope. It's absolutely correct. I appreciate your thoughts, but what I said is absolutely correct. Read on...
Ah, yes, Exodus 19:5-6. I can't tell you how glad I am that you quoted from this passage. This is exactly what Peter was referring to as I pointed out in the very post you were responding to here. I know I only mentioned Deuteronomy (specifically Deuteronomy 7:6 and Deuteronomy 14:2), but also Exodus 19:5-6. Peter like Paul, referred extensively to different passages in the Old Testament, especially the Pentateuch, the books of Moses. Specifically here, Peter, in 1 Peter 2:9-10, in addressing both ethnic Jews and Gentiles ~ all those who are in Christ ~ writes to all of them in the same words that God used there:
"...you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for His own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God’s people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy." (1 Peter 2:9-10)
It would have been shocking (and even repulsive, I'm sure, at least to many) to the ethnic Jews included in those to whom Peter was writing, to hear him refer to Gentiles in the exact same way as God did in addressing Israel in Scripture, and in effect saying, "They are you, and you are they; you are one people." They would have said or thought ~ probably reluctantly and even begrudgingly, and possibly with great disgust, at least at first hearing ~ that, "Okay, they are Israel, too."
God has one people, not two (to put it simply). What we all need to be able to do, between the Old Testament and the New, is think of things in terms of "lesser" and "greater." I think you would readily agree that Jesus is the Greater David... at least I hope you would. Yes, God set David as king over all Israel, but he was a type, a shadow, of the true King to come, Jesus Christ, the King of kings and Lord of lords. We can also make this kind of connection thusly:
LAND:
Lesser Israel ~ the promised land given to Abraham and his offspring for their forever inheritance (Genesis 17:8, Exodus 32:13)
Greater Israel ~ the whole earth; Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth")
Greater Israel ~ the whole earth; Jesus said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth")
PEOPLE:
Lesser Israel ~ the Israelites of the Old Testament, consisting of ethnic Jews only (for the most part, but with some foreigners brought in, forshadowing the welcoming of Gentile believers in the New Testament)
Greater Israel ~ all believers, all those in Christ, all true Jews, as Paul defines them in Romans 2:28-29, both ethnic Jew and Gentile alike. If one understands this properly, then he can't help but understand Paul properly in Romans 11:25-26, where he writes, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (emphasis mine, of course).
Greater Israel ~ all believers, all those in Christ, all true Jews, as Paul defines them in Romans 2:28-29, both ethnic Jew and Gentile alike. If one understands this properly, then he can't help but understand Paul properly in Romans 11:25-26, where he writes, "Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (emphasis mine, of course).
I seems, Enoch, that you mischaracterize the concept of what Reformed folks and Calvinists call "irresistible grace." The idea of irresistible grace provokes a lot of controversy, and there is a lot of misunderstanding about it. The word 'irresistible' conjures up the idea that one cannot possibly offer any resistance to the grace of God, but the history of the human race is the history of relentless resistance to the sweetness of the grace of God. What is meant by 'irresistible grace' is not what the word seems to suggest, that people are incapable of resisting God's grace. The idea is that, in spite of our natural resistance to the grace of God, God’s grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. I actually prefer the term 'effectual' rather than 'irresistible' because this grace effects what God intends to effect by it... and that is, God purposes to save some and thus, in their appointed times, calls them, through the work of the Holy Spirit, to Himself. Others He does not. Those in the former group are His elect, and those in the latter group are not. As Paul says in Romans 9 (yet again):
“'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.' So then He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?"
And finally (yet again), in Romans 11:
"...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..."
Not at all. Again, your concept of TULIP, especially the I, it seems, is only a caricature of what is really is. This is a very common thing, and is done in different ways by different folks, but the end result is essentially the same. Again, God’s grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it.
Jesus said:
"All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." (John 6:37-40)
And Paul said to the Philippians believers (and by extension to all of us now in Christ):
"He Who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Christ." (Philippians 1:6)
Grace and peace to you.
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