The Pillar and Ground of the Truth
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And yet Paul stated that they were not to be treated as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers for why we were to withdraw from them.
The clue is 2 Thessalonians 3:7 about them being disorderly in church.
Paul was addressing the iniquity in the latter days for when the falling away of the faith, but he did report that it was already at work in his days in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter and so he reminded them of the tradition in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 for which many are ignoring now in the face of all of these dramatic movement of the "spirit" that believers are chasing after in receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit "again" after a sign; falling backwards and doing other acts of confusion which God is not the author of as per 1 Corinthians 14:32-33.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
So the tradition Paul is reminding every one was when we had received the Holy Spirit at the calling of the gospel when we first believed in Jesus Christ. The need for that reminder is obviously because the iniquity is believing the lie that a believer can receive the Holy Ghost "again". That is why God will permit that strong delusion to occur because they believed the lie; thus opening themselves up to spirits of the antichrist no less.
In the Book of Acts, the early church has been sending letters to believers.
Acts 15:23And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
They got in the practice of whatever letter received, they copy it and send to other brethren and churches elsewhere.
Colossians 4:15 Salute the brethren which are in Laodicea, and Nymphas, and the church which is in his house. 16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
1 Thessalonians 5:27 I charge you by the Lord that this epistle be read unto all the holy brethren.
Peter even referred to Paul's writings as scripture.
2 Peter 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
Paul mentioned books and parchment that was being sent around as if he does some copying of scripture and epistles to send also.
2 Timothy 4:2 And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13 The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments.
So what I am conveying is that just because the earliest codex has been found, it doesn't mean they didn't have a collection of books that amounted to what we call the Bible today earlier as in from the very beginning of the church as these verses seem to suggest. It may not have been fancy as a codex, but it stands to reason they loved the scripture to make sure the churches at various places had access to all of that was available. As for the keeping of his words in a general given area over the course of time, is another matter since 1 John 5:7 was originally in scripture before it faded out to only a few manuscripts having it.
Extra biblical reference citing 1 John 5:7 can be found as far back as 250 A.D. as the author David W. Daniels had researched whose book is on sale at a Chick site ( of which I do not agree with everything Chick says which is why I should point that out even though the information shared at that site from that book by David W. Daniels is sound ) Chick.com: Is 1 John 5:7 not in any Greek manuscript before the 1600s? If it is true, why is it in the KJV?
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250 AD Cyprian of Carthage, wrote, "And again, of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost it is written: "And the three are One" in his On The Lapsed, On the Novatians, (see note for Old Latin) "
Anyway, we cannot assume that only the O.T. scripture was available as I believe the early church made it a point from the beginning to send letters, epistles, the four gospels as well as scripture from the O.T. for the church to grow on.
Jesus did prophesy many falling away from the faith as it was happening even in Paul's days, but now moreso as the way have been braodened in the worship place to include the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son as it was an ecumenical drive to unite all the churches into accepting that creed ( Matthew 7:13-17 ) and thus that practice which scripture does not really teach. Scripture does teach the only way to come to God the father in worship, prayer, or fellowship is through the Son ( John 14:6 ) and the only way to honor the Father is by honoring the Son ( John 5:22-23 ) and that was the obedience Paul was talking about in Philippians 2:12-13 for believers to have that mind of Christ when they go into worship ( Philippians 2:5-11 ). To avoid the iniquity of the latter days, Jesus said to strive ye to enter thru the straight gate in Luke 13:24-30 if any believer wishes to avoid being left behind as disqualified from attending the Marriage Supper which is to be held in His honor if they wish to avoid falling in these movements of the "spirit" regardless of the dramatic miracles happening there. Matthew 7:21-27
It is supposed to be bad in the latter says where only a few will find that the only way to come to God the Father to honor Him by is the Son.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
Yes, Guiliano. I definitely connect this verse and its context with the oikos and ekklesia of God supporting and upholding the truth of God's Word in the same way a pillar on a solid foundation supports and upholds a building. Given that all Scripture is God-breathed it follows that those whom God chose in times past to speak forth and write down words that bear the stamp of His divine authority were not doing so because of their own personal determinings and agendas but were energised and moved by the Holy Spirit. For this reason the recording of the divinely inspired utterances and writings that have been preserved as Scripture are to be consider the genuine, reliable, truthful, infallible Word of God and it is the hallmark of the true ekklesia of God that it upholds them as such.
The Roman Catholic dogma that it is "the church" that decides what is truth is as false as the day is long.
Illuminator
Well-Known Member
You don't need to be so insulting with this stupid flaming zinger. The CHURCH did not come about because of a Bible. You have it backwards.
I have a problem with I Corinthians since Paul calls himself "father." I don't know how to reconcile with what Jesus said about not calling any man father. I also don't know what Paul means when he said he begat people or when he tells people to be his followers.
In that case, Paul is saying the "living God" is the "Church". Well, that actually sounds close to the truth and what Eph 1:22 says - the Church is the "fullness" of Christ.
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If you think the Catholic Church is on shaky ground with that claim, what do you think of churches that are so much younger? If I am in a church, can I rebel and start my own church, claiming I have derived the truth from the church as the pillar and ground of the truth? I can't say I believe everything the Catholic Church teaches, but it seems doubtful to me that those who rebelled against it have better credentials when they rejected unity of the church and the church as the pillar and ground of the truth in favor of sola scriptura -- it looks like some private interpretations got inserted into their theology to me.
There are more misinterpretations of Scripture in the Catechism of the Catholic Church than anything interpreted by any Reformers. And since the Reformers were all in agreement regarding the Five Solas, it is evident that that was NOT private interpretation but sound interpretation.
Hilarious. Of course all reformers agree on the same errors. All Darwinists agree with evolution too....that doesn't make it "sound" for their vote of confidence. Can you say...group think? What does God have to say about this?
You are right of course. The reformation is like what happened with Cain and Abel. Cain was upset that God didn't seem to approve of him...the reformers were upset because God didn't speak directly to them. Cain murdered his brother...and Luther murdered the truth. Luther had a eureka moment that permitted him to ignore God and make up his own righteousness. VERY popular with the unlearned, misinformed...and seekers of self-righteousness. No need of God or the Holy Spirit. Just formulate your own righteousness by taking certain verses out of context et voila! You have a reformation!
How then did the CHURCH come about?
How is it that Paul had said that Christ was the head of the body hence the church, and not Peter, even though Christ had ascended and Peter was still alive in his day?
Indeed, can what God say about anything the Catholic catechism says? But that would be backwards, right? So is it not a mystery that it is the Catholic Church that puts the emphasis on things God dod not put such an emphasis on? Like being a member of the Catholic Church and doing the seven sacraments and if you do not persevere in charity, you are not saved? As in yet?
And yet if a Catholic believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God raised Him from the dead, they are saved. That foundation which was laid by Jesus Christ for coming to and believing in Him cannot be removed but what is built on that foundation which denies Him as the Saviour will be judged. A believer can very well run the risk of being denied by Him and thus disqualified from being of the firstfruits of the resurrection; and thus a castaway as in left behind when the Bridegroom comes. Those left behind are still saved, because of that foundation & seal, but their works which deny Him will follow them into the dust as their spirits will be present with the Lord in Heaven, awaiting their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in His House.
Since Peter was still alive when Paul had written that Christ Jesus is the head of every believer and every church with nary a mention or regard to Peter, it stands to reason that someone in Rome because all roads leads to Rome, capitalized on that to make all churches subordinate to Rome. Indeed, Pope Clement 1 in his first epistle to the Corinthians was rebuking them for not allowing his agents to collect a portion from the bounty for the church at Rome, accusing them of jealousy. It was a long winded read and hard to discern what argument he was making, but it is there and it is still in practice today for Catholic churches to pay tribute to the overheads. Hardly abstaining from the appearance of covetousness, now are they?
And what better way to enslave the churches to the church at Rome by creating doctrines to keep them in that church that is subordinate to Rome?
Just as they took verses out of context to force the Corinthians to pay tribute to Rome when the Corinthians understood what the portion from the bounty was for, to support missionaries in the field; not another church in another city; and certainly not paying tribute to that church as if they are the higher authority when the Word of God aka Christ Jesus is the head of each local assembly.
Revelations never point erring churches to the church at Rome. Revelations declared that God hates the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes which the name as defined means "conquest of the laity". The deeds of the Nicolaitanes are sexual immorality, but the doctrine does declare God hates the doctrine of having a higher authority outside the local assembly other than the Word of God, Jesus Christ as her head.
Antichrist as it is used in scripture means "instead of Christ". So the Pope taking the place of Christ as the head of the Church qualifies him to be one of the antichrists; and I do point out, that it is not confined to the lineage of the Catholic popes.
Remember the doctrine that the pope is infallible? Any Catholic ought to know not every pope was smelling like a rose and quite fallible indeed.
What we have here is a domineering church at Rome that developed doctrines to make believers in bondage to a church to obtain salvation by, and yet all invitations to eternal life is by coming to and believing in Jesus Christ; not to any church. Christ would call the RCC a thief.
John 10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber....7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. 11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
We are called to be a disciple of Jesus Christ in serving Him by testifying of Him to be the Good News to man in seeking His glory as Savior by that.
You are not called to be a disciple of a church by defending it while it enslaves the believers to a system of works that denies Him as our Savior.
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Granted, the reformers had a lot to discern from the errors of Catholicism and they did not prune everything off. Even some Protestant churches today sounds Catholic when performing communion by believing Christ's Presence is in the bread and wine or even announce that they are coming into His presence that day in holding communion when in truth, there is no coming into His Presence when He has been and still in us always since we had been saved at the calling of the gospel when we believed in Jesus Christ as Our Savior.
So how does anyone be a disciple of Jesus Christ? By defending the faith in Him and abiding in His words rather than their church and her words. If John the Baptist had to decrease so that He may increase ( John 3:28-30 ) , then so should the church in being a witness of Him ( 1 Corinthians 2:2 & John 15:26-27 ).
Jesus said...you did not choose Me, but I chose you. THAT is what being a disciple is about. You need to be hired for the job of being an ambassador. No one appoints themselves as a representative of Christ...whether a Catholic, a reformer, or an individual.
Au contraire, brother.
John 8:30 As he spake these words, many believed on him. 31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Since Jesus warned those same disciples in John 15th chapter that if they stop abiding in His words, they would be cut off.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
So what you had referenced was about knowing that this fruitfulness as His disciple was not accomplished by their will power or effort, but His working and enabling in their lives. He was pretty much reproving any thought that being His disciples was obtained by man's choice & effort since we can do nothing without Him.
So any body can be His disciple and every believer is supposed to be a witness unto others in representing Jesus Christ any way.
2 Corinthians 3:1Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you? 2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: 3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. 4 And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward: 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; 6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
So when a Catholic Church represent herself as the means by which salvation can be obtained... they bear false witness.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
So is the Catholic Church chosen by God to represent Jesus Christ when they seek the glory of their church as the means by which salvation can be obtained by, thus denying Jesus Christ as their Savior by coming to and believing in Him only in order to be saved?
Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead? Yes or no?
If yes, then what did scripture say as the result will be when you believe those 2 truths?
You are not seeing the conditional IF. And remember that Jesus is speaking. No man can replace Jesus and His words. Jesus also declared the sinner on the cross to be saved. But no man can do that. So you are double thinking this and missing the larger point. Jesus chooses His own disciples.
Most people cannot continue in the words of Jesus....they use their own reasoning and settle for what men can do.
If they believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and that God had raised Him from the dead... they are saved.
So is the Catholic Church proving to be continuing in His words as His disciple when they refuse the believer to rest in Him that they are saved?
No one is saved by mouthing a creed or accepting a ready made formula that seeks by self-interest to save an unregenerate person.
EVERYONE will be judged by the deeds...not their belief.
If a person experiences the risen Lord so that he claims that Jesus is God...then that one did so by revelation. But if a person is told to say that without any opening to God...then that person just has a religious opinion. The difference is in the actions. So then if the person who experienced the Lord doesn't continue to be faithful...then he will be rejected. But if the one who heard ABOUT the truth remains faithful to the truth...then that one will be saved.
You are doing the very human thing of making a dogmatic ideology that makes you draw the wrong conclusions. Or do you care what Jesus said?
Not all people who say Lord Lord will continue with God...but they who DO the will of the Father. Don't look for verses that go against the words of the Lord. Instead try to find an understanding that includes and doesn't deny the truth.
Explain what Paul is saying here about a former believer after giving an example of a believer that had err from the truth and had their faith overthrown.
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.
How can those be in His House as vessels unto dishonor for not having departed from iniquity? How can purging them by departing from iniquity makes them vessels unto honor in His House for why the call even goes out to former believers?
I apply this to mean that even former believers are still saved for why they too must be called to depart from iniquity or else risk becoming a vessel unto dishonor in His House as being denied by Him from being of the firstfruits of the resurrection to be received by the Bridegroom when He comes, but instead, be resurrected later on after the great tribulation to serve the King of kings on earth for the millennium reign of Christ.
That is why every saint should seek the good of others in their walk with the Lord, providing as the Lord leads as not every saint is seeking to love that reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ but just following the crowd or in most cases, the church without question.
Once again, any iniquity that a saved believer is in, that iniquity denies Him for why they are being denied by Him; Titus 1:15-16 & 2 Timothy 2:10-12 BUT even if they believe not any more, He still abides ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) for why we should call them to depart from iniquity also.
2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. 14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers. 15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Verse 15 reads to me that it applies to me and you. Now some will say this was written to Timothy and not for us, and yet what Paul instructed Timothy to do means teach those instructions to other fellow believers which has to include also us.
I'm not following your reasoning...but if we do not depart from iniquity we will be rejected and cast into outer darkness. IF we purge ourselves...through our ACTIONS...from iniquity to do what is right in the eyes of God...then we will have good salvation.
The truth goes way deeper than religious factoids you get from reading one verse. Jesus saves us in His net...but God also condemns us by catching us in a net that LOOKS LIKE it has a good ending....but it is a curse...not a blessing. Grace is deceitful...to they who take it the wrong way. Yet the problem isn't grace...but the evil in the hearer. So if a person is encouraged to believe a lie...from a fact...but that goes against the truth....then that one is condemned to be saved into a eternal reproach and shame.
So God lets us fool ourselves. The fool rages and is confident. But God has other plans...based on what sounds very good to the fool.
It is not a creed but His words that says over and over again that when we believe in Him, we are saved as it is by not believing in Him is how sinners were already condemned.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
How each believer build on that foundation will be judged, yes, but that foundation remains and that seal of adoption is never going away. 1 Corinthians 3:15-17 cites the consequences for not departing from iniquity, as in looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help us to discern and lay aside every weight & sin ( Hebrews 12:1-2 ) to be that vessel unto honor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:19-21 ) and those consequences are that the physical body will be destroyed but the spirit will be saved so as thru fire, which fire happens to be when the Bridegroom comes and leaves behind the disqualified saints in Luke 12:40-49 to face the fire coming on the earth which will set up the coming great tribulation with their mark of the beast system as the only means to buy and sell in order to survive in the new world order.
Matthew 7:21-23 when read in context of Matthew 7:13-27 is about those movement of the spirits which they think is the Holy Spirit but it is not. That is why they are falling backwards as Jesus said they will fall in Matthew 7:24-27 as a result. The iniquity is the broadening of the way in the worship place ( Matthew 7:13-14 ) which the modified ecumenical ( Matthew 7:15-17 ) Nicene creed of 381 A.D. introduced the practice of worshiping the Holy Ghost with the Father & the Son when the only way to come to God the Father in worship is by the Son ( John 14:6 ) and the only way to honor the Father in worship is by honoring the Son as per John 5:22-23 which is what the Holy Spirit dwelling is us has been sent to do thru us ( John 15:26-27 & John 16:14 ) It is because of sinners in the world that worship & commune with spirits is why The Son is the "Go To God" in coming to God the Father for anything, worship ( John 13:31-32 ) , prayer ( 1 Timothy 2:5 ), and fellowship ( 1 Corinthians 1:9-10 ).
All of those movements occur by praying to or addressing the Holy Spirit in worship in seeking "His visitations" to be felt in the worship place and to see saved believers receiving Him again and again and again even though He has been in them since they were saved at the calling of the gospel.
So yeah.. the will of the Father is known in His words and yet there has been no invitation to go to the church of St. Peter for salvation. Only Jesus.
