In notion to the post above #20;
Poor in spirit also exist and not just poor materially.
Poor in spirit also exist and not just poor materially.
The Poor
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Well, I've already covered the significant points you raise. For example, if you pay close attention as you read the discussion thus far you will find I do describe the (absolute or extreme) poverty that concerns me. A global minimum wage would go a long way to resolve the issue.
Best wishes, 2RM.
agree 100% and that's the "poor" scripture mainly addresses but that's not the primary subject of this thread
I have never really understood the phrase 'poor in spirit'. The best I have come up with is that it means those who find their wealth in their relationships, rather than in material goods. But if you think it means something alternative to that, please enlighten me.
Best wishes, 2RM.
You didn't "cover" as in any significance, definition, depth or remedy- "mentioning" isn't covering.
No it wont. Please explain how it would? Even better, then explain the resulting fallout to the rest of the economic model should one be implemented.
Do you have even a fundamental understanding of economics?
What it translates as is a "state" of being "lacking" (inadequate) in things that drive the "spirit" (essence) of man. That's up to the individual situation as to what the specific thing is. It has nothing to do with any financial or material situation.
Jesus never preached (or physically did) giving money or other material things to people. He did address their spiritual issues frequently.
I suggest working on that imagination- there is no "equity" or equal distribution with Jesus.
See
Matthew 16:27; Romans 2:6; Revelation 2:23; 2 Cor. 5:10 and more
So, are we all poor in spirit, then? By your explanation I think we could be said to be. And the point about the beatitudes is that they distinguish between some who are blessed, and are rewarded appropriately, and others who are not, and get no reward at all.
Considering He lived on charity, and praised the widow for giving her mite, I think further preaching or doing would be superfluous.
Best wishes, 2RM.
In the most literal sense, we are all "poor" to some degree but its a meaningless metric. And those "rewards" are merit based and not all of them "good' rewards. In many cases, this "poverty" is the REWARD for the actions (or inactions) that put them there.
Put all of that in proper context and Jesus didn't live on "charity"- God provided what he needed when he needed it (As He always does to equip those who do His will). That's not "human" charity in application or context.
OK, in principle and "philosophically" I agree with the content and essence of this post completely and without reservation. Definitely utopia.
Now to sprinkle a little reality sauce on it.
Who is going to determine these basic needs ( and whatever infrastructure is required to support it)?
Who is going to fund it?
Who is going to implement it?
Who is going to enforce/protect it?
Who are the aforementioned "who"s going to be accountable to?
The poor in their own spirit, which is not the Holy Spirit, speaks of those who are humble rather than prideful and rich in their own spirit [again not the Holy Spirit]. Consider the difference between these two men:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 18:10-14
The Pharisee was rich in his own spirit whereas the publican was poor in his own spirit as each of them supposedly approached God. Then here we see the promise and of whom it speaks:
"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3
Then consider the rich man here like the Pharisee above... rich in his own spirit:
"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.
And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God." Matt 19:23-24
A man rich in material things like money will often [but not absolutely in every case] also be rich in his own spirit making his entrance into the kingdom heaven difficult or impossible.
However, a few people possessing material riches may also be poor in their own spirit. Most people would probably be unable do that [be materially rich and poor in spirit], but it is not an impossibility. God can help them if they really are able to surrender to Him, but consider the choice of this man who came to Jesus:
"Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich." Luke 18:22-23
@Pathfinder7
"The tumult and the shouting dies;
The Captains and the Kings depart:
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget—lest we forget!" ('Recessional', by Rudyard Kipling, 1897)
I would be content, initially, if no one fell into the category of clinically malnourished.
The rich.
Since we do not have a global government, we'll have to leave that to the nation states.
ditto.
Each to the law of the land, and their own conscience.
Best wishes, 2RM.
That was not an answer
I want you to tell me exactly and precisely "who" these "rich" are and what exactly is the defining standard of "rich" is in terms of a financial statement. ( total assets, net worth, available cash etc.) ( Even under Moses- most people were exempt from tithing)
OK, Lets wait on N Korea, Russia, China, Iran, Cartels and the list goes on. Let me know when they all get on board.
What "law" of what "land"? What makes you think they are not already in line with their own "conscience"?
Yes it was. Work it out. Clue: if you're malnourished, chances are it's because you can't afford a decent diet.
Again, work it out. I have provided figures already on this thread.
Vice in others is no excuse for a lack of virtue in ourselves.
The law of a decent land, where no one is left behind in penury.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Not at all, the food may not be there (infrastructure), it may be confiscated by a local warlord or the government. It can be because the region itself cannot sustain itself. None of those real world causes will be solved with a SNAP card or a $5 spot.
No, you gave holistic generalities. I want specifics with hard numbers.
Sure, that sounds so sweet now make the nice man with the AK just fall in line and "do the right thing"
Where is this "land" located?
Agreed. Lifting the poor out from their condition is a complex issue. If it was easy, it would have happened by now. But because the way is hard, does not mean we should not travel it.
I'm afraid generalities is all you can have at this time. Different solutions will apply to different circumstances. But the USA is a country of a million millionaires. Doubtless even you will agree that one just doesn't need that sort of money to live a wholesome life, whereas many of the poor need an appropriate contribution just to stay healthy.
Same place as the shining city. In our hopes and ambitions.
Best wishes, 2RM.
Having been physically there and seen it over several countries mainly in the 90's, its not complex. Most of this "poverty" is created and imposed by the acts of man- not because of people not having money. So, tell me your "plan" to deal with the issues at the source and how you plan to implement it and what are the specific "deliverables" of defining success?
None of that "entitles" anyone else of our money either so whether we "need" it or not isn't a discussion point or justification for anyone else to "get it". And as I have stated, the "problem" here is NOT a "lack of money" so "throwing money" at it will not solve anything. It never has and never will. That's a Marxist argument and all its worth.
If you want a solution that has proven itself to work- lets start a war against all the repressive regimes and physically depose them who oppress their peoples then have an army of occupation to keep them out and see to it that these poor people have "enough". Let me know when you enlist.
If you don't want that then throwing money sure wont accomplish anything. We have been sending "help" for decades and nothing yet has been "fixed"- sending "more" wont accomplish any more either.
I see, well let me know if you ever get UTM grid coordinates to this place.
So, just to remind you we are talking about eradicating absolute or extreme poverty. One approach many people take is the 'mincome' or minimum income, which involves the government paying everyone enough to cover food, rent and basic utilities. If you wanted more than this you would need to work. It would certainly do the necessary in ensuring no one is homeless and no one starves. So what do you all make of this idea?
Best wishes, 2RM.
Best wishes, 2RM.
I understand completely and have asked for detailed specifics in that area that you have yet to supply.
Describe this in detail and why the government should do this? ( as opposed to creating a business climate for them to pay their own way?)
Handing people "stuff" only enlarges the pool wanting handouts- it never has (or will) fix anything
Not to mention the additional burden on the working people who pay all this extra.
unworkable garbage mainly used as an emotional heart string to implement socialism then communism. None of this has ever worked in the history of man but people want to "try again" pretending there will be different results "this time".
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