The Poor

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
This is the thread where we get to discuss money and wealth.

Jesus famously said that 'the poor you shall always have with you, but me, you shall not have always.' I would contend that He was talking to His disciples, in their time, not us in ours. I did some back of an envelope calculations a couple of years ago (pre-covid) based on numbers by Credit Suisse.

It seems that if the world's wealth were distributed equally, including children, we would each have a net worth of $33,000 and an income of $27,000 per year. That's $132,000 net worth and $108,000 annual income for each standard Nato issue four part nuclear family. Clearly, some people have a great deal more net worth and income than this, and some have a great deal less.

So, what do you make of these numbers, and the global distribution of wealth?

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: dev553344

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,501
31,678
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the thread where we get to discuss money and wealth.

Jesus famously said that 'the poor you shall always have with you, but me, you shall not have always.' I would contend that He was talking to His disciples, in their time, not us in ours.
Then why are Jesus' words available for us to read today? Shall we reject the entirety of the Bible because the last part was written close to 2000 years before any of us were born to our natural mothers? Why would God have such a book compiled and kept available for us today if it were not pertinent? Do you understand all of the Bible perfectly? I certainly do not... How will you then know which parts are not pertinent, if any?
I did some back of an envelope calculations a couple of years ago (pre-covid) based on numbers by Credit Suisse.

It seems that if the world's wealth were distributed equally, including children, we would each have a net worth of $33,000 and an income of $27,000 per year. That's $132,000 net worth and $108,000 annual income for each standard Nato issue four part nuclear family. Clearly, some people have a great deal more net worth and income than this, and some have a great deal less.

So, what do you make of these numbers, and the global distribution of wealth?

Best wishes, 2RM.
Can man ever of his accord accomplish the redistribution you suggest in the OP?

How important is it for us to be physically comfortable with always enough to eat? For how long is it that any of us will dwell here on planet Earth? 120 years, or 70-80 years or some lesser amount?

If we never die, how long a period of time is that?

"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?" John 11:26

Why speculate on what man cannot do as opposed to focusing on what God has promised He will do? Should we be focused on the results perceived or imagined or hoped for by men in their carnality rather than promised results when we follow God in His Way?

The poor? Look at these poor:

"Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Matt 5:3

Do you suppose these 'poor' obtaining this promised kingdom are those who "never die"?
 

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,194
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the thread where we get to discuss money and wealth.

Jesus famously said that 'the poor you shall always have with you, but me, you shall not have always.' I would contend that He was talking to His disciples, in their time, not us in ours. I did some back of an envelope calculations a couple of years ago (pre-covid) based on numbers by Credit Suisse.

It seems that if the world's wealth were distributed equally, including children, we would each have a net worth of $33,000 and an income of $27,000 per year. That's $132,000 net worth and $108,000 annual income for each standard Nato issue four part nuclear family. Clearly, some people have a great deal more net worth and income than this, and some have a great deal less.

So, what do you make of these numbers, and the global distribution of wealth?

Best wishes, 2RM.
Hi 2RM, great OP, I'm already a fan. But I see there is a problem with the rich because of what you're describing: Matthew 19:24

People store money for their lives like a Camel stores water in its humps. And instead of redistributing that wealth into the poor they usually donate it to a charity to get a tax break so they can even out their losses to the gov. What a sad way to ignore the needs of the Poor.

I can imagine a day when Jesus returns and we are all wealthy evenly distributed. Sounds wonderful, especially since I'm poor myself due to disabilities.
 

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
Thanks for your replies. I am not sure I would advocate the complete equality of the distribution of wealth, (one needs to maintain some degree of incentive in the economy) but I am sure we could improve matters greatly. For example, we could have a rule such that no-one earns more than seven times the income of the lowest paid. That would entail, for people who want more, first raising the income and net worth of the poorest. For now, therefore, I shall refer to a just and ideal distribution of wealth as equitable, not equal.

@devin553344 I am sorry to hear of your disabilities, and wish you all the best as you struggle to cope.

@amadeus, my friend, may I refer you to Matthew 26:6-13 KJV, where it is quite clear who Jesus was talking to, and why He said what He did.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
Last edited:

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
We all need minimal things to survive... I think of Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs... Never forgot learning that for some reason... LOL

The need for shelter... food... water... breathing... rest... ( the BASIC needs)
The need for safety...
The need for love and belonging
The need for Esteem
The need for Self-Actualization ( being the best person we can be... and the right to pursue this )

In the Western world... ( Canada and USA )... we have a very uneven living standard amongst our people...
You have the filthy rich... the semi-rich... the working class ( who can save a bit of a nest egg )...
the working class ( who survive paycheck to paycheck and are only one disaster away from losing their homes )...
the poverty class ( those on pensions but lacking the finances to do anything but the basics ).... the poverty class
of those who have no income at all... and are homeless... add to that drug and alcohol addiction and you have a mess.

Addictions can also cross over onto all the levels... and the effects are always the same... a huge mess of distruction.

I live in the poverty class... the first example I gave... I do not have the luxury to live life like most do... no restaurants... no movies...
no going out for drinks... I don't shop for NEW things including clothes... everything I buy is cheap and second hand. I don't have a television
I don't have a phone of any kind. I have ONE small ChromeBook... which I do buy new every 4-5 years... when needed... this gadget is my only
window to the outside world... and my daughter who lives 7 hours from me.

ON a scale of QUALITY of life.... I believe I am right up there with the RICH and FAMOUS... except they depend on their gadgets to make them happy and keep them occupied and satisfied ( which never happens because the more they have... the more they want ).

and I depend on GOD.... I am FULLY... COMPLETELY SATISFIED and FULFILLED... My gratitude is over flowing... and my Joy is never ending...

I eat well... because I buy and cook my own food... MY needs are completely met... and I have forfeited any minuscule wants that I might have.

UNEQUAL wealth is not the problem in my opinion... but rather the lack of empathy towards our fellow man... Capitalism is a dog eat dog mentality... that is given permission to rise high at all costs... and not giving attention to the integrity of how this is achieved.

Although I do not have any statistics... I do believe there are some available that state that WEALTH does not EQUATE happiness.

Greed and Power are the issues of our modern society. It always seems to be that the poor help the poor... and not the rich.

I think there is a reason the bible states t'is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to make it to heaven.
 

Pathfinder7

Well-Known Member
Mar 8, 2020
1,123
1,772
113
North America
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We all need minimal things to survive... I think of Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs... Never forgot learning that for some reason... LOL

The need for shelter... food... water... breathing... rest... ( the BASIC needs)
The need for safety...
The need for love and belonging
The need for Esteem
The need for Self-Actualization ( being the best person we can be... and the right to pursue this )

In the Western world... ( Canada and USA )... we have a very uneven living standard amongst our people...
You have the filthy rich... the semi-rich... the working class ( who can save a bit of a nest egg )...
the working class ( who survive paycheck to paycheck and are only one disaster away from losing their homes )...
the poverty class ( those on pensions but lacking the finances to do anything but the basics ).... the poverty class
of those who have no income at all... and are homeless... add to that drug and alcohol addiction and you have a mess.

Addictions can also cross over onto all the levels... and the effects are always the same... a huge mess of distruction.

I live in the poverty class... the first example I gave... I do not have the luxury to live life like most do... no restaurants... no movies...
no going out for drinks... I don't shop for NEW things including clothes... everything I buy is cheap and second hand. I don't have a television
I don't have a phone of any kind. I have ONE small ChromeBook... which I do buy new every 4-5 years... when needed... this gadget is my only
window to the outside world... and my daughter who lives 7 hours from me.

ON a scale of QUALITY of life.... I believe I am right up there with the RICH and FAMOUS... except they depend on their gadgets to make them happy and keep them occupied and satisfied ( which never happens because the more they have... the more they want ).

and I depend on GOD.... I am FULLY... COMPLETELY SATISFIED and FULFILLED... My gratitude is over flowing... and my Joy is never ending...

I eat well... because I buy and cook my own food... MY needs are completely met... and I have forfeited any minuscule wants that I might have.

UNEQUAL wealth is not the problem in my opinion... but rather the lack of empathy towards our fellow man... Capitalism is a dog eat dog mentality... that is given permission to rise high at all costs... and not giving attention to the integrity of how this is achieved.

Although I do not have any statistics... I do believe there are some available that state that WEALTH does not EQUATE happiness.

Greed and Power are the issues of our modern society. It always seems to be that the poor help the poor... and not the rich.

I think there is a reason the bible states t'is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to make it to heaven.
"Greed and Power are the the issues of our modern society..."
- I agree.
----
'Greed and Power' in action..
- Observe what is going on..in political arena/politics.
---
You need to consider 'Greed & Power' issues (human nature)..
- When you talk about..'the poor, rich, redistribution of wealth, class warfare, etc..'
 
Last edited:

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
You need to consider 'Greed & Power' issues (human nature)..
- When you talk about..'the poor, rich, redistribution of wealth, class warfare, etc..
I need to condemn it ... not consider it... I don't like the way the world works... and so I have chosen not to cooperate... LOL
I do my own thing... other than following the laws of the land... I am not tangled up in the affairs of the world... This works for me.
 

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
We all need minimal things to survive... I think of Maslow's Heirarchy of Needs... Never forgot learning that for some reason... LOL

The need for shelter... food... water... breathing... rest... ( the BASIC needs)
The need for safety...
The need for love and belonging
The need for Esteem
The need for Self-Actualization ( being the best person we can be... and the right to pursue this )

Yes, I find Maslow's hierarchy useful, as well. We need to start our reforms by ensuring that everyone of whatever nation gets their basic needs met. The inability to meet these needs is referred to by economists as absolute or extreme poverty. The world produces enough to eradicate this kind of poverty. What is needed is the political will among the electorates to do this, from which the politicians may take their cue.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
Last edited:

MatthewG

Well-Known Member
Apr 21, 2021
14,196
4,957
113
33
Fyffe
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
To have anything you must work for it. Need a car, house, or apartment. It takes a person to work for it to possess. Some are given land left over, and houses given by parents. They have a slight advantage over those without it, though you can work and try to gain something such as a house, car, even gain a suitable spouse to help in these needs for the betterment of each other as far as living a life here for their children if it comes about.

The Bible never condemns having money; just simply that of the misuse and making money your God in replacement of God Himself.

Those are my thoughts on it; in which am reminded about the book of James.
 
  • Like
Reactions: amadeus

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
To have anything you must work for it...

Agreed. There are some whose sickness and/or disability and/or age precludes them from working, and those must be carried by society. But in general I think you are right. However, the world we inhabit has many who work extremely hard, and still can't meet their basic needs, and are in a state of absolute poverty. I think that is scandalous.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the thread where we get to discuss money and wealth.

Jesus famously said that 'the poor you shall always have with you, but me, you shall not have always.' I would contend that He was talking to His disciples, in their time, not us in ours. I did some back of an envelope calculations a couple of years ago (pre-covid) based on numbers by Credit Suisse.

It seems that if the world's wealth were distributed equally, including children, we would each have a net worth of $33,000 and an income of $27,000 per year. That's $132,000 net worth and $108,000 annual income for each standard Nato issue four part nuclear family. Clearly, some people have a great deal more net worth and income than this, and some have a great deal less.

So, what do you make of these numbers, and the global distribution of wealth?

Best wishes, 2RM.
God is the one who distributes the wealth...which is how I interpret it anyway...

“But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.”

— Deuteronomy 8:18 (KJV)
“The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up.”
— 1 Samuel 2:7 (KJV)

Psalms 112 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ Praise ye the LORD. Blessed is the man that feareth the LORD, that delighteth greatly in his commandments.
² His seed shall be mighty upon earth: the generation of the upright shall be blessed.
³ Wealth and riches shall be in his house: and his righteousness endureth for ever.

Deuteronomy 26 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
⁹ And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey.
¹⁰ And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:

Deuteronomy 28 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:
² And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.
³ Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field.
⁴ Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
⁵ Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store.
⁶ Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
⁷ The LORD shall cause thine enemies that rise up against thee to be smitten before thy face: they shall come out against thee one way, and flee before thee seven ways.
⁸ The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
⁹ The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
¹⁰ And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
¹¹ And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
¹² The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
¹³ And the LORD shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the LORD thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:
¹⁴ And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
 

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
God is the one who distributes the wealth...which is how I interpret it anyway...

“But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day.”...


Thank you, @Heart2Soul, for those scriptures.

Do you think they absolve us of the responsibility to eradicate absolute poverty? I am of the opinion that God works through us to bring about change for the better.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Heart2Soul

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Thank you, @Heart2Soul, for those scriptures.

Do you think they absolve us of the responsibility to eradicate absolute poverty? I am of the opinion that God works through us to bring about change for the better.

Best wishes, 2RM.
I agree...and no we are not absolved from poverty...In Deuteronomy 28 I only posted the blessings.....you ought to read the curses....yikes...I think in the beginning God intended for man to live without having to want for anything...He provided everything....
But when Adam and Eve disobeyed God set a curse upon man...
So obedience is rewarded with blessings and disobedience with curses.
 

Addy

Well-Known Member
Jun 20, 2020
4,288
4,467
113
61
Ontario
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
So obedience is rewarded with blessings and disobedience with curses.
WOW... that is quite the statement... I don't believe God's children fall under curses and certainly not for being disobedient... consequences... YES.... curses... NOT for Christians.
 

Heart2Soul

Spiritual Warrior
Staff member
May 10, 2018
9,863
14,508
113
65
Tulsa
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
WOW... that is quite the statement... I don't believe God's children fall under curses and certainly not for being disobedient... consequences... YES.... curses... NOT for Christians.
Well I would hope not...the curses were for those who would not keep His commandments and worshipped idols.
But the curses can fall upon the children as in generational.curses
So becoming a born again Christian sets us free.of those curses.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dev553344

dev553344

Well-Known Member
Jul 14, 2020
14,522
17,194
113
USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think it's important to remember that God requires us to be equal if we are to be perfect in his mind.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

While I agree incentive is important, perhaps our incentive should be the happiness of others instead of our own happiness. And receive more peace and joy and love of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). And that spirit should be the happiness we seek.
 

amadeus

Well-Known Member
Jan 26, 2008
22,501
31,678
113
80
Oklahoma
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I think it's important to remember that God requires us to be equal if we are to be perfect in his mind.

Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

While I agree incentive is important, perhaps our incentive should be the happiness of others instead of our own happiness. And receive more peace and joy and love of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23). And that spirit should be the happiness we seek.
"Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself." Phil 2:3
 

DPMartin

Well-Known Member
Jan 30, 2014
2,698
794
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
This is the thread where we get to discuss money and wealth.

Jesus famously said that 'the poor you shall always have with you, but me, you shall not have always.' I would contend that He was talking to His disciples, in their time, not us in ours. I did some back of an envelope calculations a couple of years ago (pre-covid) based on numbers by Credit Suisse.

It seems that if the world's wealth were distributed equally, including children, we would each have a net worth of $33,000 and an income of $27,000 per year. That's $132,000 net worth and $108,000 annual income for each standard Nato issue four part nuclear family. Clearly, some people have a great deal more net worth and income than this, and some have a great deal less.

So, what do you make of these numbers, and the global distribution of wealth?

Best wishes, 2RM.

are you advocating communism/socialism as a christian-ism?

money and its actual value is relative we could print more money but the powers that be communism socialism or capitatim monocracy dictatorship doesn't matter they will control the value there of. if i was Putin, i could give every one 500,000 but it would cost you 400,000 for a loaf of bread. and i Putin would still be rich compared to you.
 

2ndRateMind

Active Member
Aug 18, 2021
632
150
43
60
Bristol,UK
Faith
Christian
Country
United Kingdom
No, I am not advocating communism. I would much prefer that the radical redistribution of wealth I am calling for to happen on a voluntary basis. But, realistically, there is little chance of that, so I would advocate a progressive tax policy among the those of us fortunate enough to live in the developed world.

Best wishes, 2RM.
 

An Apologetic Sheepdog

Well-Known Member
Aug 12, 2021
975
348
83
66
Atlanta, Ga
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do you think they absolve us of the responsibility to eradicate absolute poverty? I am of the opinion that God works through us to bring about change for the better.

There is no "responsibility" for us to eradicate poverty or anything else. "Poor" is a very nebulous term more often used as an emotional heartstring rather than a specific condition with qualifications and causes ( which dictate specific remedies)

But first we need to define poverty in 2 dimensions.

1- specifically what poverty is (and equally is not)
2- poverty the state. ( is this "poverty" defined in 1 above because of an individual not capable of making a living ( infirmity of some type), result of an oppressive government, result of laziness or lack of ambition? and so forth)

Then comes equality and/or equity- who decides what is equal or equitable ( especially in light of the 2 above?)

Who enforces this?

Is it "right" ( insert personal criteria for "right") to "take" from those who earn and give to the lazy? The oppressive regime?

Then define this "better". Is better a WAR that displaces an oppressive regime keeping the poor people in poverty? Is "better" handing a strung out junkie money so he can buy more?

Where does individual responsibility factor in to any of this?

Having been all over this planet and dealt with many of these in their home 20 (military and civilian), the claim of "poverty" has many definitions and causal factors as well as ways to deal with it.

I have seen personally UN "supplies" for the impoverished literally taken by local warlord for their use leaving them with nothing.

Same with "money"- handing someone "free money" has never fixed anything before, what makes anyone think it will start now?

The "winner" wins the race- he doesn't split the prize.

Think of the parable of the talents and who got the "one" (and why)