The Positional Platform

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

That's a falsehood. I advocate heart purity

.

...as a side issue!

That's another falsehood. Heart purity is a central issue.

Of course not, it would be out of character for you to do so.
You wouldn't be able to refute it anyway. The best you would be able to do is concoct strawmen and address those combined with the use of ad-hominen.

I've learned that it is impractical to have a discussion with you due to you not addressing valid counterpoints apart from your shotgun approach of addressing specific issues with a laundry list of cult talking points. IMO you are not here to learn or discuss anything, but only to proselytize for your cult.

 

[Netchaplain]

...as a side issue! We will all be judged by what we did, what we said, and what we thought. The light exposes everything. The grace of God empowers us to live in such a way as the closer scrutiny brings MORE glory to God.

Joh_3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Hi E - It should be understood that the meaning of "everyone shall receive" these; the meaning is, that he shall receive the reward of them. The judgement and reward of the believer will not involve anything condemnatory, which is reserved for the unbeliever, because there are only two judgments; life and damnation: "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

The reason I wanted to comment on this is because there are many believers who are uncertain that there is and will never be anything condemnatory (damnable) to the believer.

 

[ScottAU]

That's a falsehood. I advocate heart purity.

If you are an advocate of heart purity in salvation then how can you hold to a view that one can be engaged in the sins of 1Cor 6:9-10 and be pure at the same time?

Love works no ill. Faith works by love.

Any individual who is walking in the light as He is in the light by a faith that works by love whereby they abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ simply CANNOT be out fornicating, murdering, looking at porn, stealing, lying or cheating. Such conduct reveals a heart full of iniquity.

Manifest fruit reveals the condition of one's heart.

By holding to the view that one is "saved in position" whilst one can be engaged in filthy behaviour is clearly a denial of heart purity in salvation.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi E - It should be understood that the meaning of "everyone shall receive" these; the meaning is, that he shall receive the reward of them. The judgement and reward of the believer will not involve anything condemnatory, which is reserved for the unbeliever, because there are only two judgments; life and damnation: "they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29).

The reason I wanted to comment on this is because there are many believers who are uncertain that there is and will never be anything condemnatory (damnable) to the believer.

There is indeed a place of dishonour for those who cannot keep their garments pure. We are to watch and pray and have oil ready in our lamps lest we be rejected. The Laodicean church was warned it would be spewed from Jesus' mouth...

There are 2 judgments...one for the house of God and one for the world. Both have 2 possible outcomes. One good and one bad.

The judgment of the house of God is seen in the parable of the talents and the minas (pounds) as well as 1 Cor.3:15
The judgment of the world is seen in Mat 25 in the sheep/goats sorting.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you are an advocate of heart purity in salvation then how can you hold to a view that one can be engaged in the sins of 1Cor 6:9-10 and be pure at the same time?

Reread my post. IMO no man can continue to do evil and not be hardened and cut off. If a believer does sin, he will be disciplined. Look at King David. He murdered a man and committed adultery, but GOD forgave him because he acknowledged his sins and trusted in GOD's mercy.

 

[ScottAU]

Reread my post. IMO no man can continue to do evil and not be hardened and cut off. If a believer does sin, he will be disciplined. Look at King David. He murdered a man and committed adultery, but GOD forgave him because he acknowledged his sins and trusted in GOD's mercy.

David did more than just "acknowledge" his sins. David FORSOOK his iniquity.

You have this notion that you can "continue to do evil for a time" and quit sometime down the road and yet in the meantime you are justified.

Was the Prodigal Son restored by his Father whilst IN the pen? No! He left the pen first.

Your doctrine has people coming to Christ still in rebellion and continuing in rebellion for a time. Thus Christian's in your mind must be double minded hypocrites still in rebellion to God, serving two masters,

Your doctrine makes an allowance for a serial murderer to keep killing AFTER he has confessed his crimes and received forgiveness. So long as his killing is not indefinite. Isn't this true? What a monstrous teaching.

That is a sin gospel.

Jesus came to set us free from the service of sin. Not set us free that we keep serving sin for a time.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

How did David forsake his iniquity when the sins of murder and adultery were in the past? You can't forsake something that no longer exists. He acknowledged his guilt before the lord instead of hiding it, and trusted in GOD's mercy.

The prodigal son was always the father's son. That relationship didn't change because he was in rebellion.

Both David and the prodigal son had a positional relationship with GOD and his father (respectively) that was not altered by their behavior. It could have been had they not repented; but they both did, and were forgiven and restored to fellowship.

 

[ScottAU]

How did David forsake his iniquity when the sins of murder and adultery were in the past? You can't forsake something that no longer exists. He acknowledged his guilt before the lord instead of hiding it, and trusted in GOD's mercy.

The prodigal son was always the father's son. That relationship didn't change because he was in rebellion.

Both David and the prodigal son had a positional relationship with GOD and his father (respectively) that was not altered by their behavior. It could have been had they not repented; but they both did, and were forgiven and restored to fellowship.

Did David continue in murdering people?

Did David go and commit adultery again?

No. He repented of his rebellion and yielded himself back to God.

David said this...

Psa 32:1 A Psalm of David, Maschil. Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.
Psa 32:2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Does a spirit without guile persist in transgression?

David said this...

Psa 32:5 I acknowledged my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the LORD; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin. Selah.

Solomon wrote this...

Pro 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

Isaiah wrote this...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

Jeremiah stated...

Jer 26:13 Therefore now amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the LORD your God; and the LORD will repent him of the evil that he hath pronounced against you.



So in light of all those scriptures are you trying to contend for a position where one merely has to "confess their sin" and yet still "continue in sin" and still receive a pardon? Is that your position?





You state this...

The prodigal son was always the father's son. That relationship didn't change because he was in rebellion.

Adam was always God's son yet still fell under condemnation the day he rebelled. Why is it different for anyone else? The wages of sin is still death.

Why not appeal to what the scriptures actually teach instead of the conjecture of "once a son always a son"?


Like I said, the wages of sin is still death. The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. One does not abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and abide in the service of sin at the same time. Do they? Is that what you believe? Do you believe one can serve two masters? That is sure what it sounds like you are trying to defend.



You are making this allowance for "ongoing rebellion" whilst remaining justified on the CONDITION that it does not continue indefinitely. If that is true then why did John write this...

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Your doctrine clearly makes an allowance for the children of God to manifest wickedness for a time.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Did David continue in murdering people?
Did David go and commit adultery again?
No. He repented of his rebellion and yielded himself back to God.

David had stopped sinning (as you put it) for approx. one year. Apart from hiding his prior sins of murder and adultery, he wasn't sinning when Nathan confronted him.

Adam was always God's son yet still fell under condemnation the day he rebelled. Why is it different for anyone else? The wages of sin is still death.

Adam is a unique case because he was not already spiritually dead when he corrupted his nature. All men since him have been born spiritually dead.

 

[Episkopos]

The prodigal son was always the father's son. That relationship didn't change because he was in rebellion

He was DEAD according to his father.

Luk_15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

He was DEAD according to his father.
Luk_15:24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

He was dead in the father's eyes, not because the father didn't love and forgive him, but because his son was lost and separated from his fellowship; just as we become when we sin.

 

[ScottAU]

David had stopped sinning (as you put it) for approx. one year. Apart from hiding his prior sins of murder and adultery, he wasn't sinning when Nathan confronted him.



Adam is a unique case because he was not already spiritually dead when he corrupted his nature. All men since him have been born spiritually dead.

No. Daivd was very much still in his sins because sin is an issue of the heart not merely an external act. A heart set upon serving the lusts of the flesh in disobedience to God is a heart full of iniquity. An overt external act (such and committing adultery eceryday) is not needed.

David was not repentant over his murder or his adultery until Nathan convicted him. David was not right with God, he had to experience godly sorrow which worked a genuine change of mind unto salvation. The Bible is very clear.

What you are trying to do is find something in the BIble which supports your notion that one can be actively engaged in evil and be right with God at the same time. if one is in rebellion they are not right with God and if they remain in that state they will perish in their sins. God is patient in giving sinners time to repent but this time in no way means they are in a justified state.



You err when you claim that all men are born spiritually dead. Like many things you "claim" you cannot support your contentions with Scripture.

The Bible says this...

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Paul was not "born dead."

Sin only kills via the law. Whether it be a violation of the law of conscience (Rom 5:14) or the violation of a direct command (Rom 5:12).

James writes...

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

That is what happened to Eve...

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

That is what happened to you and me...

Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Look at this verse...

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Death passed upon all men why? All sinned is why. It doesn't say that death passed upon all men "because they were born." It doesn't say that death passed upon all men because "Adam sinned." No! It clearly says "for that all have sinned."

We are responsible for our own sin. You cannot blame your birth or Adam. Satan wants you to blame those things because he does not want you to feel ultimately responsible for your rebellion because he does not want you to repent. Satan knows that repentance and faith are the means by which one seeks reconciliation with God (via the blood of course). Thus Satan intorduces teachings which redefine the nature of man which in turn redefines the nature of repentance and faith.

We are all born very much alive to God but in a neutral state, a blank slate if you will. We are born subject to the passions and desires of the flesh as well as ignorant. Yet we don't "die" and fall under "condemnation" until such time as we rebel against God. Rebellion requires knowledge combined with an act of the will.

He was dead in the father's eyes, not because the father didn't love and forgive him, but because his son was lost and separated from his fellowship; just as we become when we sin.

You completely deny passages like this...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

You clearly don't believe the Bible so there is really no point engaging you in discussion.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hello people,
This is my first post on this site :mellow: .
Have read the start of the thread and this last page. Very thought provoking, if a bit spiky at times. I think we all agree that Christians should not sin (nor anybody else for that matter). Sin is, to put it mildly, horrid. But are you, ScottAU, saying, a) that you don't sin?, b} every time you sin you stop being a Christian? c) something else? Please can you keep any reply to no much more than a screenful . These matters are important and need full and clear (maybe a bit of graciousness as well ) statements but I presume that time and concentration have their limits for others besides me.
><>

 

[ScottAU]

Hello people,
This is my first post on this site :mellow: .
Have read the start of the thread and this last page. Very thought provoking, if a bit spiky at times. I think we all agree that Christians should not sin (nor anybody else for that matter). Sin is, to put it mildly, horrid. But are you, ScottAU, saying, a) that you don't sin?, b} every time you sin you stop being a Christian? c) something else? Please can you keep any reply to no much more than a screenful . These matters are important and need full and clear (maybe a bit of graciousness as well ) statements but I presume that time and concentration have their limits for others besides me.
><>

Hello and welcome.

A genuine Christian is not in rebellion to God thus they don't sin in that context.

Sin in the Greek is Hamartia which is said to mean "miss the mark" whilst the Bible defines sin as transgression (1Joh 3:4), doing evil knowingly (Jam 4:17), and violating one's conscience (Rom 14:23).

A genuine follower of Christ has laid aside ALL filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and received with meekness the implanted word which saves the soul (Jam 1:21) and are thus DOERS of the word (Jam 1:22). The hearers only are self deceived (Jam 1:22).

Thus a geniune Christian may "miss the mark" due to lack of understanding...

Pro 24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

But they do not "work iniquity" for they have put on the mind of Christ and no longer live according to the lusts of men but rather yield to the will of God.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

So to answer your question we have indeed ceased from sin in the above context whilst we fall short at times due to lack of understanding, hence the need to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.

Anyone still engaged in the sins of the flesh is not a genuine Christian. Such people need to do the first works of repentance whereby the flesh is crucified with the passions and desires. A wild horse must be broken before it will submit to a rider, likewise a sinner must be broken on the rock of Christ before they will submit to God. This is why Jesus opened His ministry with repentance...

Mat 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


I hope this reply was not too long.

 

[afishamongmany]

Thank you ScottAU, no that was a managable chunk.

"Thus a geniune Christian may "miss the mark" due to lack of understanding..."

So you are saying here that a genuine Christian may sin. "May" that is in the sense of , possible not in the sense of permited. That's good because some of the things you have been saying seemed to come across as expecting (and even claiming) here and now sinless perfection. Whatever it may be due to sin is sin and justly deserves death. My experience is that my "missing the mark" has little to do with lack of understanding.

You quote;
1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

and then say;
"So to answer your question we have indeed ceased from sin in the above context whilst we fall short at times due to lack of understanding, hence the need to grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ."

Anyone still engaged in the sins of the flesh is not a genuine Christian."

"ceased from sin in the above context whilst we fall short at times" --- This phrase is a problem (sin is sin) and shows us the difficulty of fully understanding what we are discussing.
Whilst it is legitimate and necessary for for us to make judgements about sin and to always condemn it, the same is not true vis a vis who is or is not a "genuine" Christian. The Lord knows those who are His.
More generally, both "sides" in this debate are right in that both, lack of "positional" assurance, and false presumpteous assurance (no real repentance) are problems in the churches. I believe the second is by far the biggest problem of the two.
><>

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Anyone still engaged in the sins of the flesh is not a genuine Christian.

You need to define the bolded text. There is much too much equivocation going on.

 

[ScottAU]

You need to define the bolded text. There is much too much equivocation going on.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.



Thus Christian's do not do these things...

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Eph 5:3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
Eph 5:4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.



To do those things is to "work iniquity." Christian's are to DEPART from iniquity.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Those who work iniquity yet profess Jesus will be rejected in the end...

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Only those DOING the will of God shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hello again Scott, sorry but I'm confused. I refer you to my last post. Now you do seem to be saying that here and now, continious, sinless perfection is the requirement for salvation. So again;

Thus a geniune Christian may "miss the mark" due to lack of understanding...

I read this as - "a genuine Christian may sin". As I've said my experience has been that my "missing the mark" has had very little to do with lack of understanding. But whatever the excuse sin is sin.
Can you help me to be clear about what you believe?
Are you without sin 24/7?
Will you remain sinless untill that moment when we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye?
How does Paul's anguished declaration in Romans 7:14-25 figure in all this?
As I say I'm confused as to what you really believe and await you response with interest. Please take your time (and not too much space )
Peace, truth and love,
><>

 

[ScottAU]

Hello again Scott, sorry but I'm confused. I refer you to my last post. Now you do seem to be saying that here and now, continious, sinless perfection is the requirement for salvation. So again;

I read this as - "a genuine Christian may sin". As I've said my experience has been that my "missing the mark" has had very little to do with lack of understanding. But whatever the excuse sin is sin.
Can you help me to be clear about what you believe?
Are you without sin 24/7?
Will you remain sinless untill that moment when we are all changed in the twinkling of an eye?
How does Paul's anguished declaration in Romans 7:14-25 figure in all this?
As I say I'm confused as to what you really believe and await you response with interest. Please take your time (and not too much space )
Peace, truth and love,
><>

Perhaps your missing the mark is rooted in iniquity in your heart because you have never truly submitted to Jesus Christ.

There is a difference between this...

Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.

and this...

Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.

There is a difference between this...

Pro_24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

and this...

Pro_24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.


There is a difference between this...

Jas 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

and this...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Num 15:32 And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Num 15:33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Num 15:34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Num 15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Num 15:36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



Willful presumptuous sin is OUT OF THE QUESTION for a Christian. The only recourse for presumptuous wrong doing (ie. doing wrong when you KNOW it) is the first works of initial repentance and faith. The old man must be crucified once and for all via the change of mind wrought by a godly sorrow. It is to be self deceived to believe that one can merely be a hearer and not a doer.

Doers of the word don't "not do it."
In regards to Romans 7:14-25 I have written a commentary on it found here...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58384-romans-chapter-7-a.html#post922114


In summary Romans 7:14-25 is Paul speaking of a man under the bondage of sin who is under strong conviction. Paul is making a point that we cannot defeat sin in the flesh but only through abiding in the Spirit. The law in and of itself does not reform the heart and thus is ineffective in delivering someone from the bondage of sin.

Many false teachers use Romans 7:14-25 as a proof text in support of their notion that a Christian will always be a filthy wretch in this life which then supports the notion that the death of Christ on the cross is a CLOAK for an ongoing state of iniquity.

Many are deceived by these ministers of Satan who look like lambs.

 

[afishamongmany]

Hi there Scott, Happy Friday to you.
You say;
“Perhaps your missing the mark is rooted in iniquity in your heart because you have never truly submitted to Jesus Christ.”

So can you be clear? Are you saying that you, Scott (being I presume, truly submitted to Jesus Christ) never miss the mark and therefore never need to pray, “Forgive me my sins as I forgive those who sin against me.”? Or that 1 John 1:8-10 is not a passage that applies to you?
I'll be quiet clear. I'm not here expending my precious time and energy to affirm and defend the heresy of antinomianism. I do not believe that Christians are free to live as they please without regard to God's clearly given moral parameters.
I'm engaging with you Scott to do my bit in trying to squashing the heresy of perfectionism which keeps popping up in your posts. This heresy if taken on board leads to great discouragement and or great hypocrisy in the life of The Lord's people. The tragic fact is that Christians sin. This fact is clearly taught in Scripture and verified by experience.
Those that sin “through ignorance”, sin. The just man who falls as with the wicked man who falls, both sin.

You say;
“Wilful presumptuous sin is OUT OF THE QUESTION for a Christian. The only recourse for presumptuous wrong doing (ie. doing wrong when you KNOW it) is the first works of initial repentance and faith.”

Two things here;
First, if by your qualification of “Wilful presumptuous” you mean the “sin unto death” spoken of in 1 John 5:16 then nothing in that passage rules out the possibility that John is talking about Christians. In fact the weight of passage indicates that he is. Though personally I believe once reborn no-one nor anything (in the eternal perspective) can take eternal life from us.
Secondly, you then go on to say that there is a “recourse” for “presumptuous wrong doing”. But John is saying there is no recourse for “the sin unto death”. 1 John 1:9 is about repentance and faith but is not about “the sin unto death”.

You say;
“Many false teachers use Romans 7:14-25 as a proof text in support of their notion that a Christian will always be a filthy wretch in this life which then supports the notion that the death of Christ on the cross is a CLOAK for an ongoing state of iniquity.”

Certainly, false teachers do that, but never the less Paul is most definitely speaking about himself in this passage and by extension he is speaking about you and me. That some people twist a text one way is no justification for twisting it a different way.
The death of Christ on the cross is our only means of righteousness and justification.
IN Christ I am sinless because He is sinless. In this world I'm a saved sinner, living (and stumbling) by faith in God's promise that He will never leave or forsake me.
Dear Scott let us denounce sin and by God's grace keep ourselves from it, but let us also rightly divide His word and share it as bread rather than throwing it as stones.

“Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.” James 5:19,20.
Love, Truth, Peace, ><>