The (potential) Treachery of Doctrine > My way, or the highway >

[St. SteVen]

Follow-up to the topic: The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

 

[Lambano]

Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

That "transformation" thing seems to operate kinda slowly (too slowly?) I'm not even sure how it works, i.e. what do we do, what does God do, or what it looks like in practice.

That may be yet another thread.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Follow-up to the topic: The potential conceit of doctrinal individuality

Got it all figured out?

- You read the Bible cover-to-cover. Good for you. Kudos.
- You read up on doctrine and apologetics. Good.
- You arrived at a position on nearly any biblical topic, or doctrine. Check.
- Now you are ready to kick some butt. Say what?

What's wrong with this picture?
Is this why we read the Bible and study?
Do we measure maturity by personal KNOWLEDGE, or by personal TRANSFORMATION ?

One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life.

 

[St. SteVen]

That "transformation" thing seems to operate kinda slowly (too slowly?) I'm not even sure how it works, i.e. what do we do, what does God do, or what it looks like in practice.

That may be yet another thread.

That's a great comment/question.
Someone has probably done a topic on this. But...

It's definitely a process.
Many key points in this scripture below.
- Identify the pattern of this world.
- Refuse to conform to it.
- Rather, be transformed by renewing your mind.
- Test and approve God's will.
- Don't think of yourself more highly than you ought.

Romans 12:1-3 NIV
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy,
to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—
this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world,
but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—
his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you:
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought,
but rather think of yourself with sober judgment,
in accordance with the faith God has distributed to each of you.

 

[St. SteVen]

One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life.

Your way, or the highway?

 

[amadeus]

Your way, or the highway?

God's Way, but how many can really see it and head on it toward Him?

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Your way, or the highway?

God's Way, but how many can really see it and head on it toward Him?

Right.
Or is there consensus on what "God's Way" even is?

Differing definitions of what "God's Way" is could send followers separate ways.
Hopefully to the same destination, but perhaps not.

Some might reply, "Just follow the Bible."
But again, we have a lack of consensus on what that means.

On the brighter side, God can use more than one path to get us to the goal.
Ultimately through Christ. But how that plays out may differ for each individual.

Therefore, "One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life.", isn't very helpful. IMHO

 

[Keturah]

I'd like to understand how folks bought into John N Darby's theology on the pre-trib rapture in the 1800's ..........way far away from any of the Apostles! Ooops, can-o-worms question.

In my belief & study of the word, I can not find any scripture that backs up such a belief w/o taking God's word & time-line out of context !

Yes, I know where they quote from as I said OUT OF CONTEXT!

If it is NOT biblical doctrine, is it false doctrine, denominal doctrine or just a lie that has been perpetrated & brain-washed the easy manipulated masses by staunch advocates over a couple centuries ?

Furthermore, how could this RECENT revelation have escaped the knowledge,wisdom & understanding of the Apostles who had direct contact with Jesus?

 

[GRACE ambassador]

I'd like to understand how folks bought into John N Darby's theology on the pre-trib rapture in the 1800's ..........way far away from any of the Apostles! Ooops, can-o-worms question.

My Dear Precious friend, Keturah, thanks for being such an encourager. On this subject, may I
simply say that I didn't "buy into JN Darby and his belief," but, due all the "back-biting and
devouring of one another" about end-times eschatology on u-tube, I took 18 months off, and
investigated/researched God's Holy And Preserved Word, in order To: make my own Conclusion
of said subject.

My Dear Precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In:

Conclusion to God's Great GRACE Departure! ​

Please be advised that this is Summary Of The Whole study, which has 16 Different Sections,
If this is insufficient Evidence, I will be glad to share any or all of these → ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
if you wish...

Amen.

 

[Keturah]

My Dear Precious friend, Keturah, thanks for being such an encourager. On this subject, may I
simply say that I didn't "buy into JN Darby and his belief," but, due all the "back-biting and
devouring of one another" about end-times eschatology on u-tube, I took 18 months off, and
investigated/researched God's Holy And Preserved Word, in order To: make my own Conclusion
of said subject.

My Dear Precious friend, Please Be Very Richly Encouraged And Edified In:

Conclusion to God's Great GRACE Departure! ​

Please be advised that this is Summary Of The Whole study, which has 16 Different Sections,
If this is insufficient Evidence, I will be glad to share any or all of these → ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑
if you wish...

Amen.

I intended no offense but since this is titled " The  Treachery of Doctrine", I asked here.

I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture as described by some but rather Christ's second coming as per the word of God through my own study & revelation of the Spirit.!

I respect you greatly & will review  your study, however I have been convinced by God of the fact there is mis-interpertation of things looking through a glass darkly.

Thank you.

 

[amadeus]

St. SteVen said:
Your way, or the highway?

Right.
Or is there consensus on what "God's Way" even is?

Consensus does necessarily equal Truth, does it?

Differing definitions of what "God's Way" is could send followers separate ways.
Hopefully to the same destination, but perhaps not.

Look at the history of Christianity as it has continued to divide over the centuries into now thousands of denominations. Look at the topics on this forum and multitude of opposing views on them. Who is following God's Way?

Some might reply, "Just follow the Bible."
But again, we have a lack of consensus on what that means.

Even so...!

On the brighter side, God can use more than one path to get us to the goal.
Ultimately through Christ. But how that plays out may differ for each individual.

Some them although seeming to oppose each other many indeed be moving ahead through Christ, but others not. Again this is why we are not supposed to make final judgements against others... Must the other guy's view be wrong because it disagrees with our view?

Consider what Paul wrote here:

2co 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness

Compare that with what God told Hosea here:

Ho 1:2

The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Has God changed His mind? I think not!

Therefore, "One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life.", isn't very helpful. IMHO

No, but the Holy Ghost is. We need to remember what Paul wrote here:

2co 10:12

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

 

[St. SteVen]

If it is NOT biblical doctrine, is it false doctrine...

Once again we are confronted with the question about what constitutes "unbiblical" doctrine.
Almost an oxymoron at face value. How can it even be "doctrine" if it is unbiblical?
Where else would they get it? - LOL

Anyway, I personally don't think we should call anyone's doctrine unbiblical if they have a biblical defense for it.
I may not agree with it, but I can't honestly declare it unbiblical if they gave a biblical defense.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Right.
Or is there consensus on what "God's Way" even is?

Consensus does necessarily equal Truth, does it?

I agree.
But where does that leave us?
Who decides?

 

[St. SteVen]

Look at the history of Christianity as it has continued to divide over the centuries into now thousands of denominations. Look at the topics on this forum and multitude of opposing views on them. Who is following God's Way?

Many Christians object to the number of denominations, considering it to be negative division.
I don't see it that way. Many of the church "splits" were fueled by revival.
And what we ended up with IMHO is a lot of specialists in different areas.
I see the church as a large quilt made up of different complimentary parts.
But I'm obviously not playing with a full deck. - LOL

Some them although seeming to oppose each other many indeed be moving ahead through Christ, but others not. Again this is why we are not supposed to make final judgements against others... Must the other guy's view be wrong because it disagrees with our view?

Good points. I agree.

Consider what Paul wrote here:

2co 6:14

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness

Compare that with what God told Hosea here:

Ho 1:2

The beginning of the word of the LORD by Hosea. And the LORD said to Hosea, Go, take unto thee a wife of whoredoms and children of whoredoms: for the land hath committed great whoredom, departing from the LORD.

Has God changed His mind? I think not!

From the old covenant to the new?
Yes, I think he has.
Are you required to keep Mosaic law?
Or did God change his mind? (I know, I know...)

 

[amadeus]

St. SteVen said:
Right.
Or is there consensus on what "God's Way" even is?

I agree.
But where does that leave us?
Who decides?

The individual, between him and God! He may follow men [church groups] in a measure if he agrees with them or he may not. This kind of question is one reason why there are so many "churches" supposedly Christian with so many sometimes diametrically opposed views on different points.

 

[Lambano]

St. SteVen said:
Right.
Or is there consensus on what "God's Way" even is?

I agree.
But where does that leave us?
Who decides?

"Everyone did what was right in his own eyes". (Bonus points to the first person who identifies this scripture.)

To paraphrase the ISO-9001 manager at my previous company, "First you gotta have a spec. THEN you can deviate from it." I'm pretty sure this dynamic is why one of the mottos of the Reformation was "Sola Scriptura!" - because they felt that Traditions of the Apostles as passed down by the Church hierarchy could no longer be trusted because the men themselves could not be trusted. But you gotta have a spec. Gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. Even if the spec itself is interpreted by fallible men and women through the eyes of tradition, reason, and experience.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
Therefore, "One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life.", isn't very helpful. IMHO

No, but the Holy Ghost is. We need to remember what Paul wrote here:

2co 10:12

For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

Yes.
But isn't "One Lord, One faith, One baptism. One road to life." measuring ourselves by ourselves?
That statement is about as Evangelical as it gets. Not a one-size-fits-all statement for the WHOLE Body of Christ.

 

[St. SteVen]

The individual, between him and God! He may follow men [church groups] in a measure if he agrees with them or he may not.

In that case consensus doesn't matter, correct? (between him and God)

This kind of question is one reason why there are so many "churches" supposedly Christian with so many sometimes diametrically opposed views on different points.

This kind of question? (we need challenges, unless you are satisfied with the status quo - I'm not, obviously)
So many "churches"? (why would you question whether they are EVEN churches?)
Supposedly Christian? (same question)
Diametrically opposed views on different points? (the questions are MORE important than the answers to me)

 

[amadeus]

Many Christians object to the number of denominations, considering it to be negative division.
I don't see it that way. Many of the church "splits" were fueled by revival.
And what we ended up with IMHO is a lot of specialists in different areas.
I see the church as a large quilt made up of different complimentary parts.
But I'm obviously not playing with a full deck. - LOL

Good points. I agree.

From the old covenant to the new?
Yes, I think he has.
Are you required to keep Mosaic law?
Or did God change his mind? (I know, I know...)

God has not changed. He knew from the beginning, the differences between what was required of those living under the law given to Moses what has been required of those since Jesus' sacrifice and the pouring out of the Holy Spirit.

Each of us needs to be following the lead of the Holy Spirit. In individuals cases, what is required may be somewhat different today. Babies versus mature and also in accord with what God has planned for one individual believer versus another. We are not all, or are not to be, the same part of the Body of Christ:

1co 12:12	For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1co 12:13	For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1co 12:14	For the body is not one member, but many.
1co 12:15	If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1co 12:16	And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1co 12:17	If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1co 12:18	But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1co 12:19	And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1co 12:20	But now are they many members, yet but one body.

 

[St. SteVen]

"Everyone did what was right in his own eyes". (Bonus points to the first person who identifies this scripture.)

Judges 17 or Isaiah 5? - LOL

To paraphrase the ISO-9001 manager at my previous company, "First you gotta have a spec. Then you can deviate from it." I'm pretty sure this dynamic is why one of the mottos of the Reformation was "Sola Scriptura!" - because they felt that Traditions of the Apostles as passed down by the Church hierarchy could no longer be trusted because the men themselves could not be trusted. But you gotta have a spec. Gotta put a stake in the ground somewhere. Even if the spec itself is interpreted by fallible men and women through the eyes of tradition, reason, and experience.

Right. I agree.