The Power of God:

[RichardBurger]

The Power of God:

1 John 3:20
20 For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.
NKJV

1 John 5:9-12
9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son.
10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son.
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
NKJV

So how do we have the Son of God? Is it through faith in Him or by works?.

Acts 10:15
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
NKJV

There was a time, and perhaps it still exists, that only those with high religious works were seen as righteous. But in this age of God's grace sinners are called righteous and the children of God.


1 Corinthians 1:26-29

26 For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
NKJV

God has made a way for sinners to be called righteous in His sight and that way is belief, faith, trust, and confidence in the shed blood of Jesus on the cross knowing that we have been reconciled to God even while we live in sinful flesh.

Are you confident that your sins are paid for by Jesus. Are you persuaded that God has made a plan of salvation in which sinful men can be saved by belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus’ work on the cross? --- If not then why?

 

[veteran]

Coming to Christ Jesus in Faith and being baptized in His Name for the remission of sins past is not the only time of repentance we are called for. We are to repent of later sins also (1 John 1).

 

[Episkopos]

Are sinful men saved from their sins by being sinful?

Imagine a healer that goes up to a man in a wheel chair and says...walk!!! The man in the wheel chair feels nothing but tries anyway to get up. He is obviously not healed since he can only fall to the ground.

Now, can you imagine a crowd of people shouting...he is healed!!! In spite of the fact that he really isn't healed at all.

That is what is preached nowadays...fairy tales and fables. But NO POWER.

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Who is wise to see the difference between being saved FROM our sins and being saved IN our sins!

This thread is attempting to teach a salvation IN sin.

 

[prism]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(Rom 1:16-17)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Rom 3:21-22)

 

[RichardBurger]

Are sinful men saved from their sins by being sinful?

Imagine a healer that goes up to a man in a wheel chair and says...walk!!! The man in the wheel chair feels nothing but tries anyway to get up. He is obviously not healed since he can only fall to the ground.

Now, can you imagine a crowd of people shouting...he is healed!!! In spite of the fact that he really isn't healed at all.

That is what is preached nowadays...fairy tales and fables. But NO POWER.

2Ti_4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Who is wise to see the difference between being saved FROM our sins and being saved IN our sins!

This thread is attempting to teach a salvation IN sin.

You had better take note of what is said in the OP. Why!? --- Because you still sin in the flesh just like everyone else. If God can not call sinners to be the children of God then no one can be called children of God.

 

[NicholasMarks]

It is my understanding that we are all sinners but the Christian's sins are held in abeyance while we repair the flesh of the damage caused by those sins. Jesus Christ is supporting us whilst we go down that path he called...'the way, the truth and the life'.

It all hinges upon us succesfully upbuilding our spirit which is our inner self being expressed in the way Jesus expressed his to us. God is a Spirit and if we want to worship him we must speak via our spirit too.

Our spirit is a multi-tasker because whilst we are busy worshipping and praying in the way Jesus taught us it is actively soothing and calming the host we reside in...and this is the start of its repair.

 

[Prentis]

Here's a good example of the power of God!

[sup]8[/sup]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

 

[RichardBurger]

It is my understanding that we are all sinners but the Christian's sins are held in abeyance while we repair the flesh of the damage caused by those sins. Jesus Christ is supporting us whilst we go down that path he called...'the way, the truth and the life'.

It all hinges upon us succesfully upbuilding our spirit which is our inner self being expressed in the way Jesus expressed his to us. God is a Spirit and if we want to worship him we must speak via our spirit too.

Our spirit is a multi-tasker because whilst we are busy worshipping and praying in the way Jesus taught us it is actively soothing and calming the host we reside in...and this is the start of its repair.

You seem to be saying that "WE" repair the flesh. I certainly don't believe the sinful flesh can repair it'self.

You all can sugar coat it all you wish but you are still preaching salvation by the work of man in the flesh as if the shed blood on the cross is not enough to pay for our sins. That is denying the power of the cross.

Here's a good example of the power of God!

[sup]8[/sup]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

You just refuse to see it. The flesh sins and is of the Devil. Jesus died to destroy sins of the flesh. The flesh can not be made perfect.

However, those "in Christ" are no longer in the flesh they have been spiritually born of God. Now they are both flesh and spirit. The flesh will not enter into heaven because God has said that flesh and blood will never enter heaven. If a person is worshipping God from the flesh they will never enter heaven.

How did He do it, by paying for all the sins of the world and in doing that, put to death the works of the Devil (the flesh). Meaning that they no longer condemn the child of God.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
(Rom 1:16-17)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
(Rom 3:21-22)

A welcome addition. Thanks

 

[Prentis]

You said 'those in Christ are no longer in the flesh', then you must agree, since you consider yourself in Christ, that one can no longer be working according to the flesh (in the flesh as you said it) and yet be in a body of flesh!

And so he can be in the spirit, and the one who is in the spirit does NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

[sup]5[/sup]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[sup]6[/sup]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

 

[Episkopos]

You had better take note of what is said in the OP. Why!? --- Because you still sin in the flesh just like everyone else. If God can not call sinners to be the children of God then no one can be called children of God.

We are converted from being sinners to children of God...not sinners of God.

 

[RichardBurger]

You said 'those in Christ are no longer in the flesh', then you must agree, since you consider yourself in Christ, that one can no longer be working according to the flesh (in the flesh as you said it) and yet be in a body of flesh!

And so he can be in the spirit, and the one who is in the spirit does NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

[sup]5[/sup]And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
[sup]6[/sup]Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

That is your problem. You can't see that, if you have been born again in the spirit you have two natures living in a body of sinful flesh Just as Paul discribed it in Romans 7. The two struggle with each other. THE TWO, not ONE.

Everyone who is alive is in the flesh is at the same time in the spirit if they have been born of God. The two live together as long as the flesh lives.

Everyone that has faith in Him is "IN HIM". AS long as your faith is "IN HIM" you are "IN HIM". If your faith is in trying to make your flesh perfect then you are in the flesh.

We are saved by our faith "IN HIM" not by faith in our efforts to be perfect.

 

[Episkopos]

That is your problem. You can't see that, if you have been born again in the spirit you have two natures living in a body of sinful flesh Just as Paul discribed it in Romans 7. The two struggle with each other. THE TWO, not ONE.

Everyone who is alive is in the flesh is at the same time in the spirit if they have been born of God. The two live together as long as the flesh lives.

Everyone that has faith in Him is "IN HIM". AS long as your faith is "IN HIM" you are "IN HIM". If your faith is in trying to make your flesh perfect then you are in the flesh.

We are saved by our faith "IN HIM" not by faith in our efforts to be perfect.

True faith causes us to be reconciled to God in reality and proximity. God makes His home in us when we abide in Him. HE becomes the Master of our house. As such we obey the Spirit...not follow our own ideas and thoughts. If we wish to continue living in our own strength then God will not abide in us. He is God...not just a passenger.

You scheme makes God into One who tolerates sin and abides in sin. This is patently false and indeed ridiculous. Light has NO partnership with darkness. Holiness has no part with sin whatsoever.

Your scheme makes you saved by living in your own efforts. Someone who is born of God is not limited to trying to be good by oneself....but rather is EMPOWERED to live godly in this world through the abiding of the HOLY ONE IN US. So it is Christ in us that does the effort...not us. His way is perfect.


The evidence that you cannot stop sinning shows that you are walking in your own strength AWAY FROM God. The evidence of your doctrine signifies that you are still following the reasoning of a carnal mind.

 

[RichardBurger]

1. True faith causes us to be reconciled to God in reality and proximity. God makes His home in us when we abide in Him. HE becomes the Master of our house. As such we obey the Spirit...not follow our own ideas and thoughts. If we wish to continue living in our own strength then God will not abide in us. He is God...not just a passenger.

2. You scheme makes God into One who tolerates sin and abides in sin. This is patently false and indeed ridiculous. Light has NO partnership with darkness. Holiness has no part with sin whatsoever.

3. Your scheme makes you saved by living in your own efforts. Someone who is born of God is not limited to trying to be good by oneself....but rather is EMPOWERED to live godly in this world through the abiding of the HOLY ONE IN US. So it is Christ in us that does the effort...not us. His way is perfect.


4. The evidence that you cannot stop sinning shows that you are walking in your own strength AWAY FROM God. The evidence of your doctrine signifies that you are still following the reasoning of a carnal mind.

1a. It is my belief (you call it a scheme) that a child of God is not only saved by the power of God but also kept by the power of God. They are not saved by God and then left to their own strength to keep themselves saved. -- Your idea (scheme) is that a person is saved by God’s power and then left to finish the job of salvation by works.

2a. I gave two scriptures to try and show what I am saying, Acts 10:15, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 ---- Instead of attacking me why don’t you come up with what those verses mean in your scheme.

3a. What a lie. In my scheme (as you call it) we are saved by keeping our belief, faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross. --- Since you keep on saying a person is empowered to not sin in the flesh then IMHO you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh. That is directly at odds with the scriptures below.” How do you rectify that with what you claim? 1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

4a. This is your opinion about me and that makes it personal. I am no more a sinner than you. You still sin in the flesh just as I and everyone else on this planet does. -- I follow the teachings of the Apostle that was sent to me, Paul. In the gospel of grace which he wrote about works of the flesh can not save anyone. Galatians 3:2-3 -- 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? - NKJV

IMHO You are saying we are now being made perfect by the flesh and that is not scriptural.

Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

 

[Episkopos]

1a. It is my belief (you call it a scheme) that a child of God is not only saved by the power of God but also kept by the power of God. They are not saved by God and then left to their own strength to keep themselves saved. -- Your idea (scheme) is that a person is saved by God’s power and then left to finish the job of salvation by works.

Quite the opposite. We are kept IN the power of God through grace. We walk in fellowship with God in the Spirit. God finishes what He starts. Salvation is a process of being IN Christ away from our own efforts. We walk by faith not by sight...when you walk by sight you will lust and sin. Your scheme is full of sin. How can you get any worse than that? It is a failure to obey God.

2a. I gave two scriptures to try and show what I am saying, Acts 10:15, and 1 Corinthians 1:26-29 ---- Instead of attacking me why don’t you come up with what those verses mean in your scheme.

The first verse is about the dietary law or what is kosher. We can eat all things with thansgiving. It is not what goes into a man that defiles him.

The second one is about choosing the humble and disrespected things to show forth His glory. Like being born in a stable....like choosing illiterate fishermen.



3a. What a lie. In my scheme (as you call it) we are saved by keeping our belief, faith, trust and confidence in what Jesus did on the cross. --- Since you keep on saying a person is empowered to not sin in the flesh then IMHO you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh. That is directly at odds with the scriptures below.” How do you rectify that with what you claim? 1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV

I am writing what the bible is saying....you are choosing verses out of context to support a defeated position.

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (all have sinned in the past)

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. (you will ignore this because you will not stop from sinning and you cannot do it in the power of your own effort....you deny the grace of God to do it in you ) And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: (there is a provision for baby Christians to learn to walk in His power)
1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (there is no favouritism for Christians)
1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.(do you believe this?)
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. (Are you a liar according to this since you cannot keep His commandments?)
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. (Does this mean anything at all to you?)




4a. This is your opinion about me and that makes it personal. I am no more a sinner than you. You still sin in the flesh just as I and everyone else on this planet does. -- I follow the teachings of the Apostle that was sent to me, Paul. In the gospel of grace which he wrote about works of the flesh can not save anyone. Galatians 3:2-3 -- 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? - NKJV

IMHO You are saying we are now being made perfect by the flesh and that is not scriptural.


You admit you are walking in the power of the flesh so that you cannot stop sinning. Therefore you are a slave to sin. We are made perfect WHILE IN the flesh but not ACCORDING to the flesh. I have stated this to you many many times but I think you just prefer writing whatever you like. I have always said it is by the SPIRIT of GOD that we walk. You cannot believe this.

Galatians 3:22-25
22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed.
24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
NKJV

We no longer need a tutor if we are doing what we are supposed to be doing. Since a man cannot sin in Christ there is no need to tell him to not sin. Only those who walk in the power of the flesh need to be reminded of the law...which they cannot keep perfectly anyway.

How does your sin make the law void? Does God no longer care about sin? Or did He make a way to destroy sin through an empowering of HIS people to walk in His Son?

 

[prism]

Episkopos,
It would be helpful if you would answer such questions posed by Richard as "Since you keep on saying a person is empowered to not sin in the flesh then IMHO you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh. That is directly at odds with the scriptures below.” How do you rectify that with what you claim? 1 John 1:8-10"

instead of giving a non answer such as "Since a man cannot sin in Christ there is no need to tell him to not sin. Only those who walk in the power of the flesh need to be reminded of the law...which they cannot keep perfectly anyway.."

Besides you say a man cannot sin in Christ, but that becomes a moot point when the Christian turns away from Christ.

 

[Episkopos]

Episkopos,
It would be helpful if you would answer such questions posed by Richard as "Since you keep on saying a person is empowered to not sin in the flesh then IMHO you are saying you no longer sin in the flesh. That is directly at odds with the scriptures below.” How do you rectify that with what you claim? 1 John 1:8-10"

instead of giving a non answer such as "Since a man cannot sin in Christ there is no need to tell him to not sin. Only those who walk in the power of the flesh need to be reminded of the law...which they cannot keep perfectly anyway.."

Besides you say a man cannot sin in Christ, but that becomes a moot point when the Christian turns away from Christ.

You have to think it out. If a man leaves Christ then he can sin and will sin.

Can a man rob a bank if he is in jail? But if you let him out can he then rob the jail? Think about it.

 

[RichardBurger]

Acts 10:13-15
13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
NKJV

Acts 11:7-15
7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.'
8 But I said, 'Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.'
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.'
10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea.
12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,
14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
NKJV

To those who actually study the scriptures they see that the vision of eating things that were concidered unclean by the Jews is directly related to the Gentiles who were considered unclean by the Jews. A Jew would not enter the house of a Gentile because he would be concidered defiled. This vision lead Peter to the house of Corneilus, a Gentile.

God gave this vision to Peter so that Peter could understand that God would now accept the unclean and call it clean. When God said that 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' is directly related to God being able to call sinners righteous when they place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.

But the self righteous will never accept Gods command, " 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' because it does not allow them to claim perfection in the flesh.

Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Now it is a fact that God justified this sinner while he was still a sinner.

 

[Episkopos]

Acts 10:13-15
13 And a voice came to him, "Rise, Peter; kill and eat."
14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I have never eaten anything common or unclean."
15 And a voice spoke to him again the second time, "What God has cleansed you must not call common."
NKJV

Acts 11:7-15
7 And I heard a voice saying to me, 'Rise, Peter; kill and eat.'
8 But I said, 'Not so, Lord! For nothing common or unclean has at any time entered my mouth.'
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.'
10 Now this was done three times, and all were drawn up again into heaven.
11 At that very moment, three men stood before the house where I was, having been sent to me from Caesarea.
12 Then the Spirit told me to go with them, doubting nothing. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered the man's house.
13 And he told us how he had seen an angel standing in his house, who said to him, 'Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon whose surname is Peter,
14 who will tell you words by which you and all your household will be saved.'
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them, as upon us at the beginning.
NKJV

To those who actually study the scriptures they see that the vision of eating things that were concidered unclean by the Jews is directly related to the Gentiles who were considered unclean by the Jews. A Jew would not enter the house of a Gentile because he would be concidered defiled. This vision lead Peter to the house of Corneilus, a Gentile.

God gave this vision to Peter so that Peter could understand that God would now accept the unclean and call it clean. When God said that 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' is directly related to God being able to call sinners righteous when they place their belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross.

But the self righteous will never accept Gods command, " 'What God has cleansed you must not call common.' because it does not allow them to claim perfection in the flesh.

Luke 18:9-14
The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Now it is a fact that God justified this sinner while he was still a sinner.

We are not cleansed from being pure....but dirty. How many people put clean clothes in the washer?

Do the clothes come out dirty or clean from the washer?

So we have been cleansed through Christ and need not dirty ourselves again because we remain in He who cleansed us...without spot or wrinkle.

We are made clean through th power of the word. If we believe and submit ourselves to the word in the fear of the Lord, then God will make us white as snow....with no spot or wrinkle.

Does that mean we should throw ourselves in the mud so that we can be cleansed once again? God forbid. We sgould keep our garments pure and white.

Rev_3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 

[Prentis]

That is your problem. You can't see that, if you have been born again in the spirit you have two natures living in a body of sinful flesh Just as Paul discribed it in Romans 7. The two struggle with each other. THE TWO, not ONE.

Everyone who is alive is in the flesh is at the same time in the spirit if they have been born of God. The two live together as long as the flesh lives.

Everyone that has faith in Him is "IN HIM". AS long as your faith is "IN HIM" you are "IN HIM". If your faith is in trying to make your flesh perfect then you are in the flesh.

We are saved by our faith "IN HIM" not by faith in our efforts to be perfect.

You say I can't see, yet you're the one who sees a verse right before his eyes and says the opposite of the verse the next second!

Does the one who is IN CHRIST sin, or not?

 

[Episkopos]

Are we supposed to turn the world upside down or the word upside down? :wacko: