The Power of God:

[prism]

You have to think it out. If a man leaves Christ then he can sin and will sin.

Can a man rob a bank if he is in jail? But if you let him out can he then rob the jail? Think about it.

Oh, I get it. We can go in and out of Christ like a revolving door...kinda like being born again and again and again and....sheesh.

 

[Prentis]

Oh, I get it. We can go in and out of Christ like a revolving door...kinda like being born again and again and again and....sheesh.

It's called abiding... Remaining...

Maybe He used those words for a reason! Yes, a disciple can choose to leave his master, like a son can leave his father with his inheritance to go back to the world!

 

[prism]

It's called abiding... Remaining...

Maybe He used those words for a reason! Yes, a disciple can choose to leave his master, like a son can leave his father with his inheritance to go back to the world!

My point then is using all those scriptures attempting to prove that a Christians can't sin is whooey when what is really being said is that when he does sin by not 'abiding' (Prentis) or not 'remaining in jail' (Episkopos) so he wont rob banks he's really not a Christian at the time he is sinning. This seems to be Episkopos' stance.

 

[RichardBurger]

You say I can't see, yet you're the one who sees a verse right before his eyes and says the opposite of the verse the next second!

Does the one who is IN CHRIST sin, or not?

The spiritual child of God does not sin because his/her spirit is born of God. It is the spirit that does not sin.

The sinful flesh body still sins because it has not been born of God. It was born in a union of a sinful man and women and can not be made sinless. It has to die.

But some refuse to see that a spiritual child of God lives in a body of sinful flesh. They see no difference between the two.

 

[Prentis]

My point then is using all those scriptures attempting to prove that a Christians can't sin is whooey when what is really being said is that when he does sin by not 'abiding' (Prentis) or not 'remaining in jail' (Episkopos) so he wont rob banks he's really not a Christian at the time he is sinning. This seems to be Episkopos' stance.

What's being shown is not that a christian can't sin, it's that a christian abiding perfectly in Christ can't sin.

Is Christ a minister of sin?

The spiritual child of God does not sin because his/her spirit is born of God. It is the spirit that does not sin.

The sinful flesh body still sins because it has not been born of God. It was born in a union of a sinful man and women and can not be made sinless. It has to die.

But some refuse to see that a spiritual child of God lives in a body of sinful flesh. They see no difference between the two.

That's called gnosticism. So your Spirit is glorifying God while your flesh is serving the devil... I can hear Romans 7 already! But the thing is, Romans 7 is the point of defeat, when one is striving in his own strength. Romans 8 shows us that by the strength of Christ, sin should not have dominion over us.

Does sin have dominion over the body of the redeemed, Richard?

 

[Episkopos]

Oh, I get it. We can go in and out of Christ like a revolving door...kinda like being born again and again and again and....sheesh.

You are describing the sunday morning shuffle. Paul says it is like forgetting what you look like in the mirror. The mirror is supposed to reflect Christ.

So will you judge the bible by your behaviour and that of the people around you...or will you believe the testimony from the bible?

 

[RichardBurger]

That's called gnosticism. So your Spirit is glorifying God while your flesh is serving the devil... I can hear Romans 7 already! But the thing is, Romans 7 is the point of defeat, when one is striving in his own strength. Romans 8 shows us that by the strength of Christ, sin should not have dominion over us.

Does sin have dominion over the body of the redeemed, Richard?

Yes, Romans 7 is at play here. The words in these scriptures mean exactly what they say.

Romans 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Now I know that you think the words in verse 24 means we are made perfect in the flesh but it doesn't say that. If it did the words "but with the flesh the law of sin" would not be there.

We are delivered from our sins commited in the sinful body by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross when we place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. But you can't hear that because you do not believe Jesus came to save those who can not save themsleves (sinners). The fact that you can't hear it is not my fault.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, Romans 7 is at play here. The words in these scriptures mean exactly what they say.

Romans 7:23-25
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.
NKJV

Now I know that you think the words in verse 24 means we are made perfect in the flesh but it doesn't say that. If it did the words "but with the flesh the law of sin" would not be there.

We are delivered from our sins commited in the sinful body by the blood of Jesus shed on the cross when we place our belief, faith, trust, and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. But you can't hear that because you do not believe Jesus came to save those who can not save themsleves (sinners). The fact that you can't hear it is not my fault.

This conclusion is not the meaning of Paul. He is saying that we follow the law of sin and death with the flesh nature or we follow the Spirit of life though the Spirit. We can't do both. Read Romans 8...remember that Paul didn't have chapters in his letters...they were all one description of the law of Christ and life and the law of the flesh and death.

 

[Prentis]

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

[sup]2[/sup]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
[sup]3[/sup]For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

You say that those that are after the Spirit do the things of the flesh, but it is a lie!

[sup]13[/sup]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[prism]

What's being shown is not that a christian can't sin, it's that a christian abiding perfectly in Christ can't sin.

Is Christ a minister of sin?

According to your statement then IF a christian can reach a state of 'abiding perfectly' then either...

1. He would remain sinless the rest of his life
or.
2. Contradict your premise by sinning via no longer abiding perfectly.

Now, let me ask you Prentis, are you abiding perfectly thus sinless?

You are describing the sunday morning shuffle. Paul says it is like forgetting what you look like in the mirror. The mirror is supposed to reflect Christ.

So will you judge the bible by your behaviour and that of the people around you...or will you believe the testimony from the bible?

The testimony of the bible is that ALL have sinned except ONE. True God has declared us righteous (Justified) but He still goes to town to clean up our act.

 

[Episkopos]

According to your statement then IF a christian can reach a state of 'abiding perfectly' then either...

1. He would remain sinless the rest of his life
or.
2. Contradict your premise by sinning via no longer abiding perfectly.

Now, let me ask you Prentis, are you abiding perfectly thus sinless?



The testimony of the bible is that ALL have sinned except ONE. True God has declared us righteous (Justified) but He still goes to town to clean up our act.

Only One...yes!!!! But that One made a way for us to become co-heirs with Him. Not by making God blind...but by a new creation in holiness without sin.

 

[Prentis]

According to your statement then IF a christian can reach a state of 'abiding perfectly' then either...

1. He would remain sinless the rest of his life
or.
2. Contradict your premise by sinning via no longer abiding perfectly.

Now, let me ask you Prentis, are you abiding perfectly thus sinless?

No, I am not.

Only One...yes!!!! But that One made a way for us to become co-heirs with Him. Not by making God blind...but by a new creation in holiness without sin.

Yes! There is ONE son of God... Yet through HIM, we are given power to become sons of God.

 

[RichardBurger]

Only One...yes!!!! But that One made a way for us to become co-heirs with Him. Not by making God blind...but by a new creation in holiness without sin.

You claim to be sinless in the flesh. That is easy to do before man but not before God. Every time I see you say your sinless I think about the story Jesus told about the Pharisee and the tax collector.

Luke 18:10-14
0 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Which one are you Episkopos? I see you as the Pharisee claiming you no longer sin in the flesh and trying to exalt yourself.

 

[Prentis]

You claim to be sinless in the flesh. That is easy to do before man but not before God. Every time I see you say your sinless I think about the story Jesus told about the Pharisee and the tax collector.

Luke 18:10-14
0 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Which one are you Episkopos? I see you as the Pharisee claiming you no longer sin in the flesh and trying to exalt yourself.

That's a false accusation! Episkopos, when asked, has already said he is not yet able to remain always in the presence of the Lord, full of the Spirit.

He does not claim to be sinless... He claims that Christ is sinless, and that in him there is no sin. If we are in him, and abide there, we do not sin. He is exalting the Lord.

 

[Episkopos]

You claim to be sinless in the flesh. That is easy to do before man but not before God. Every time I see you say your sinless I think about the story Jesus told about the Pharisee and the tax collector.

Luke 18:10-14
0 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

Which one are you Episkopos? I see you as the Pharisee claiming you no longer sin in the flesh and trying to exalt yourself.

The tax collector will claim he is the Pharisee and the Pharisee will claim to be the tax collector!!!


I have never claimed to be perfect...you are again using false accusations to try strengthening a point that isn't biblical at all. I am saying that Jesus Christ does not sin...never has and never will!

We cannot abide in Christ while in sin. Never have been able and never will be able. Rather we abide in Christ in order NOT to sin.

What does "dead to sin" mean to you? It certainly does not mean "dead to sin" in reality to you. When John says "he cannot sin" who is in Christ...what does that mean to you?

There are billions of unbelievers but just a few believers of the word. Are you not just trying to claim a Christianity apart from faith?

 

[RichardBurger]

The tax collector will claim he is the Pharisee and the Pharisee will claim to be the tax collector!!!


I have never claimed to be perfect...you are again using false accusations to try strengthening a point that isn't biblical at all. I am saying that Jesus Christ does not sin...never has and never will!

We cannot abide in Christ while in sin. Never have been able and never will be able. Rather we abide in Christ in order NOT to sin.

What does "dead to sin" mean to you? It certainly does not mean "dead to sin" in reality to you. When John says "he cannot sin" who is in Christ...what does that mean to you?

There are billions of unbelievers but just a few believers of the word. Are you not just trying to claim a Christianity apart from faith?

So you are not perfect and sinless and yet you wish to put a burden of sinlessness on the other children of God.

If you can't do as you say others must do then you are nothing but a hyprocrite.

That's a false accusation! Episkopos, when asked, has already said he is not yet able to remain always in the presence of the Lord, full of the Spirit.

He does not claim to be sinless... He claims that Christ is sinless, and that in him there is no sin. If we are in him, and abide there, we do not sin. He is exalting the Lord.

Everyone knows that Jesus was sinless so it is unnecesary to show it. The problem with you and Episkopos is that you and he don't know what you are talking about.

You and he are perfectly happy to talk about being sinless in the flesh until you are called out on it. -- I have said, many, many times that You sin just like all the rest of us. When I say I still sin in the flesh you make a big deal that I am not walking in the spirit. Now you begrudgingly acknowledge you sin too.

Yes, you and Episkopos sin just like the rest of us. Your claim that you can be sinless in the flesh is a bunch of rubbish. A child of God is only sinless because they know the blood of Jesus takes away all their sins.

 

[Episkopos]

So you are not perfect and sinless and yet you wish to put a burden of sinlessness on the other children of God.

If you can't do as you say others must do then you are nothing but a hyprocrite.



Everyone knows that Jesus was sinless so it is unnecesary to show it. The problem with you and Episkopos is that you and he don't know what you are talking about.

You and he are perfectly happy to talk about being sinless in the flesh until you are called out on it. -- I have said, many, many times that You sin just like all the rest of us. When I say I still sin in the flesh you make a big deal that I am not walking in the spirit. Now you begrudgingly acknowledge you sin too.

Yes, you and Episkopos sin just like the rest of us. Your claim that you can be sinless in the flesh is a bunch of rubbish. A child of God is only sinless because they know the blood of Jesus takes away all their sins.

The burden we are to carry is light....there is no effort to being sinless..just abide in Christ. If you really do believe that Jesus doesn't sin then why not abide in him?

Your accusation of me putting an un-needed burden on others is plainly ridiculous. You can read the bible...just don't twist the meaning and you will see the need for real power in order to fulfill the commands of Christ....like being holy as GOD Himself is holy. You are burdening the truth by taking this away through your unbelief.

What is John burdening us with here...please explain...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

 

[Prentis]

So you are not perfect and sinless and yet you wish to put a burden of sinlessness on the other children of God.

If you can't do as you say others must do then you are nothing but a hyprocrite.



Everyone knows that Jesus was sinless so it is unnecesary to show it. The problem with you and Episkopos is that you and he don't know what you are talking about.

You and he are perfectly happy to talk about being sinless in the flesh until you are called out on it. -- I have said, many, many times that You sin just like all the rest of us. When I say I still sin in the flesh you make a big deal that I am not walking in the spirit. Now you begrudgingly acknowledge you sin too.

Yes, you and Episkopos sin just like the rest of us. Your claim that you can be sinless in the flesh is a bunch of rubbish. A child of God is only sinless because they know the blood of Jesus takes away all their sins.

Takes away their sins? Or just the consequences... Because all you've been saying is that God cannot take away our sins but only the consequences! When it says we are dead to sins, which part of that is it? Our spirit? Our spirit is made alive, not dead! So what is it then... The flesh? Yes.

A child of God is sinless because he remains in Christ, in whom there is no sin. I am indeed content to admit that I am sinful, and that no good thing dwells me. That is, my old nature, the adamic nature, has no power to please God, and is bent so as to always fall short.

But through Christ Jesus, we can walk as he walked, by being in Him.

 

[RichardBurger]

Takes away their sins? Or just the consequences... Because all you've been saying is that God cannot take away our sins but only the consequences! When it says we are dead to sins, which part of that is it? Our spirit? Our spirit is made alive, not dead! So what is it then... The flesh? Yes.

A child of God is sinless because he remains in Christ, in whom there is no sin. I am indeed content to admit that I am sinful, and that no good thing dwells me. That is, my old nature, the adamic nature, has no power to please God, and is bent so as to always fall short.

But through Christ Jesus, we can walk as he walked, by being in Him.

By your own words since you still sin just like everyone else you condemn yourself by what you write.

The burden we are to carry is light....there is no effort to being sinless..just abide in Christ. If you really do believe that Jesus doesn't sin then why not abide in him?

Your accusation of me putting an un-needed burden on others is plainly ridiculous. You can read the bible...just don't twist the meaning and you will see the need for real power in order to fulfill the commands of Christ....like being holy as GOD Himself is holy. You are burdening the truth by taking this away through your unbelief.

What is John burdening us with here...please explain...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him

Rubbish. You say a lot about abiding in Him but you seem to have a false idea of how we abide in Him. To you it is about works to be sinless. To me it is abiding in faith that the shed blood covers all my sins.

 

[Prentis]

By your own words since you still sin just like everyone else you condemn yourself by what you write.

It is better to speak the truth to our own hurt than to twist it to justify ourselves!