The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Naomi25]

@No Pre-TB

I'm not familiar with this, what does this mean, one tree becomes two?

Much love!

Hey marks! Well…it’s just following the metaphor used in scripture…and pushed to the logical end should one follow Dispensationalism.
I’ll try and explain….
Dispensationalists see a future ‘separate’ program for the Jewish people. Yes, they must come to Christ for salvation…but still…it is separate. I think this is not a controversial idea…it is well understood and taught by them.
But when we look at Romans 11, we see Paul describing salvation as being ‘grafted onto’ (be it naturally beginning there, or being grafted on later when people come to Christ) a single tree. We know that the tree itself is believing Israel…people like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob…and all the faithful Jewish after them that placed their trust in the promised Messiah to come…thus were ‘saved by faith’. We also know that the ‘root’ of this tree is Christ. Therefore any and every person who is ‘saved’ has been grafted into Israel and is nourished (saved) by the root.
The problem, as I see it, with claiming there must be a future separate ‘plan’ for the Jews, is that your essentially taking Paul’s metaphor of a single tree, connected to Christ, and placing another tree there, also growing out of Christ.
I would submit that scripture does not lead us to that conclusion at all.

 

[marks]

The problem, as I see it, with claiming there must be a future separate ‘plan’ for the Jews, is that your essentially taking Paul’s metaphor of a single tree, connected to Christ, and placing another tree there, also growing out of Christ.

What I see is that Gentiles are coming to Christ, and it is prophesied that in a future time, when Jesus returns, all the remaining Jews will also come to faith in Christ.

What makes that two trees? We all come to faith in Christ.

Much love!

 

[marks]

We know that the tree itself is believing Israel…

There is however some debate on that. Some say the tree is Christ Himself. Some say it is Israel. Some say it is Abraham.

Much love!

 

[marks]

should one follow Dispensationalism.

I'm not sure what it means to "follow dispensationalism", but I do see differences in how God interacted with man at different times. I follow the Bible, and the Bible teaches that.

Yes, they must come to Christ for salvation…but still…it is separate. I think this is not a controversial idea…it is well understood and taught by them.

But not "two trees". And salvation is by faith in Christ.

One of the key factors is that I believe God will in fact keep His promises to His chosen nation.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

These promises will be kept.

Much love!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

The one event that is the key to understanding when the Church is taken up is at the Last Trumpet. (1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52)
The Pre-Tribbers MUST therefore reject the 7th Trumpet as being the last trumpet. If the 7th is the last, then their whole scenario is flawed. It means we must endure through the Seals and six trumpets, yet we will avoid the wrath of God which comes in the Seven Bowls.

Precious friend, actually there are TWO events to this understanding:

In God's "Revelation Of HIS MYSTERY," HE Did In Biblical Fact, Open
HIS "Dispensation Of GRACE" with the [FIRST] "Trump [Voice] Of God,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST!":

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME!" (Acts_9:4)

This is why PRE-TOJT Departure Is "The CLOSING Event Of This
Dispensation Of GRACE At "The [LAST] Trump Of God!" (1Th 4:16),
Where "HE Gathers us To HIMSELF!" [Different from "the gathering" below!]...
MYSTERY/GRACE

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Prophetic program:

...Which God Resumes With "Israel/nations" AFTER "The Body Of CHRIST
Departs [Ending GRACE" above], beginning "The Time Of JACOB's Trouble!":

This is why we do not read "God's MYSTERY Events" Into God's
Prophetic program and "try to Match Up the last trumpet" to be the
same as the 7th of Rev. 10:7. And we Also do not see this prophetic
trumpet as "the last" Either, because:

In Further Biblical Fact, prophecy experts have "missed an ADDITIONAL
trumpet" of The SON of Man, just BEFORE HIS Judgment to see who
qualifies "to Enter HIS Kingdom" HE Is Setting Up in Jerusalem, At
HIS prophesied Second Coming, and after the Armageddon Destruction!
[which Occurs AFTER the 7th angel trumpet for the seven bowls, Correct?]:

Mat 24:31 "And HE Shall Send HIS angels with a great sound of a
[LAST?] trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four
winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (cp Mark_13:27) [Different than
"The GRACE Gathering" above, Correct?]

More in post # 554
Thus, our understanding of PRE-TOJT Departure vs POST-trib.

GRACE And Peace...

 

[amigo de christo]

Every time I've found myself corrected by the Bible, it's when I come to realize that I wasn't taking every word seriously!

My suggestion to others, myself too, slow down when reading the Bible. I've learned the importance of stopping at each and every word, to ask myself, to ask Jesus, AM I actually paying attention to everything I'm reading?

Much love!

Keep doing that . Things will always clear up . Keep reading it for yourself and keep praying to GOD .
HE will make it real simple for us .

 

[Naomi25]

What do you mean, one tree becomes two. Are you saying people cannot live on earth and in heaven at the same time?

Why would I say that?
Are YOU saying that because Abraham…and every deceased faithful Jew/Christian after him and up until this moment…are currently in heaven that they cannot be a part of the Church?

Let’s remember a few key facts. The “church” is just the members of Christ’s body…those found IN him, redeemed by his blood.

We are told that Abraham was saved through his forward faith. This is why he, and the Patriarchs of Israel form the ‘olive tree’ onto which every believer in Christ is grafted onto. Regardless if they have now passed on.

In fact, we are also told that every person ‘grafted’ onto this tree…into Christ’s body…are heirs of promise…Abrahams offspring.

So what biblical evidence do we have to say that being on earth or heaven means a separation from the fundamental fact that we are all one in Christ?

You need to start there if you want to lay the foundation for your argument.

.
There are two kingdoms. Always has been. One is dead, but now alive in Paradise. The other is on earth. One is physically in Paradise. The other physically on earth. That will not change until New Jerusalem comes down and connects with the earth. Then there will still be those inside the city, and outside all over the earth.

This makes no sense. Two Kingdoms? One is dead? They exist separately, physically in different places?
We have the Kingdom that Christ speaks about and refers to often in the NT. But there is nothing to suggest that that kingdom is different to another kingdom. In point of fact, even going as far back as Daniel, we are told that Christ will come and establish a kingdom that is eternal.
What proof do you have that the kingdom he pronounces is ‘among you’ is not this kingdom? That it must be separated by location and purpose?
Once again you are prying apart what is referenced in scripture as one.

.
Your logic declares we cannot have cities at the same time we have those living in the country.

My logic?
And why on earth would location speak to the key spiritual issue Paul is highlighting with his ‘tree’ metaphor?
How can we equate, biblically, the notion that being separated by place (heaven/earth) means we are not one in Christ? Where does it tell us this in scripture?

Being spiritually IN Christ is fundamentally different to where a person is situated physically. I know very well, for example, that my deceased and beloved Grandparent, were without a doubt part of the Church. The body of Christ is made up of those who are “IN” him…regardless of time period or physical location.

And claiming otherwise is like saying that because Abraham is already in heaven, then he cannot be part of the the tree. Even though Paul outright tells us that due to our unity in Christ, we are his offspring and the tree itself IS believing Israel and its Patriarchs. Location in either heaven/earth…(city/country as you put it) does NOT equal spiritual realities Paul is emphasising in Rom 11.

.
The point is the church represents all those living together in one big city. Israel represents all those who live outside the city all over the rest of the earth.

Except….no. This is not the metaphor Paul uses…at all. You are still trying to separate what is not separated….only you’re swapping images. And muddling in location to try and prove it.

If we stick to Paul’s symbology here, you are still saying that the Church has one tree (city) and Israel has another tree (county)…but that both must still come to Christ (the root).
That’s simply NOT what Paul is describing. He is describing one tree….both natural (Jewish) and unnatural (Gentile) believers in Christ (root) are on the SAME tree.

So…to switch that back into your imagery…the people IN Christ live in the same place…some are born in the city…others have just moved there…but they all live in the same city…share the same goods of the city.

.Between the Cross and the Second Coming there is no difference. Israel is not a representative of neither right now. The church represents all on earth, as well as all in Paradise.

Which means that you still believe that AFTER the ‘rapture’ everything Paul tells us about our unity in Christ and how that makes us all one body….becomes null and void.
And by all means…show me anything in the NT that supports that notion.
But right now, I’ll stick with what I know the NT does teach…and that is that we are all part of the same tree.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Precious friend, actually there are TWO events to this understanding:

In God's "Revelation Of HIS MYSTERY," HE Did In Biblical Fact, Open
HIS "Dispensation Of GRACE" with the [FIRST] "Trump [Voice] Of God,
The LORD JESUS CHRIST!":

"Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou ME!" (Acts_9:4)

This is why PRE-TOJT Departure Is "The CLOSING Event Of This
Dispensation Of GRACE At "The [LAST] Trump Of God!" (1Th 4:16),
Where "HE Gathers us To HIMSELF!" [Different from "the gathering" below!]...
MYSTERY/GRACE

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

God's Prophetic program:

...Which God Resumes With "Israel/nations" AFTER "The Body Of CHRIST
Departs [Ending GRACE" above], beginning "The Time Of JACOB's Trouble!":

This is why we do not read "God's MYSTERY Events" Into God's
Prophetic program and "try to Match Up the last trumpet" to be the
same as the 7th of Rev. 10:7. And we Also do not see this prophetic
trumpet as "the last" Either, because:

In Further Biblical Fact, prophecy experts have "missed an ADDITIONAL
trumpet" of The SON of Man, just BEFORE HIS Judgment to see who
qualifies "to Enter HIS Kingdom" HE Is Setting Up in Jerusalem, At
HIS prophesied Second Coming, and after the Armageddon Destruction!
[which Occurs AFTER the 7th angel trumpet for the seven bowls, Correct?]:

Mat 24:31 "And HE Shall Send HIS angels with a great sound of a
[LAST?] trumpet, and they shall gather together His elect from the four
winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (cp Mark_13:27) [Different than
"The GRACE Gathering" above, Correct?]

More in post # 554
Thus, our understanding of PRE-TOJT Departure vs POST-trib.

GRACE And Peace...

Matt. 24:31 is the same Trumpet referred to in 1 Thes. 4:16, 17 & 1 Cor. 15:52 & Rev. 11:15.
Do you know what the "mystery" is that will be revealed at the 7th Trumpet? The mystery is what our resurrected bodies will be like. We kniw we will be like Christ, but only eye witnesses gave seen His resurrected body and even they did not know what His body was fully capable of. Appearing, disappearing, entering in and out of the spiritual realm into the physical, ascending ... might as well say flying like angels. At that moment of our resurrection _ wow _the answer to the question _ the experience everyone has been waiting _ that is the mystery.

 

[Naomi25]

I'm wondering here, when you say "dispensationalists . . . separate", what exactly do they separate? BTW . . . I consider myself "dispensationalist", but I'm not thinking I'm doing what you describe. But I need to know exactly which parts "we" separate.

Much love!

Well…I sort of tried to explain the idea of ‘separating’ versus ‘combining’ in my first post to you. Basically the idea is that every scholar and clued in bible reader understands that when we read the Gospel accounts, we combine them. Every gospel is slightly different, yes? But…just like police would expect witness statements to be different and not identical, the FACT that the gospel accounts are slightly different actually gives them more credibility for being truthful.
Knowing that, when we read them, we combine the different retelling of certain events to gain a…more full…picture of what might have happened.

My point with the ‘separating’ was, that instead of applying similar methodology to all the references to Christ’s return, Dispensationalist separate them into two events….

And I have not yet heard a satisfactory reason as to why they must read it this way. I know, as a Dispensationalist you would say that the text requires you to read it that way, but I disagree.

I’ll give you two examples that I hear frequently from Dispensationalists for ‘separating’ the returns that I find unconvincing. The first is “the first time Jesus comes in the clouds and the second time his feet touch down”.
I find this a weak argument, because naturally anyone descending from heaven to earth must pass through the clouds to reach earth. If we believe Acts 1:11 to be true, then Jesus will return in like manner to how he left. And how he left was ascending from earth, through the clouds and into heaven. Thus it is reasonable…until proved further with credible passages…to expect that in his return he will descend through the clouds to earth.

The second example I find unconvincing is “the first time Jesus comes FOR his bride, the second time he comes WITH his bride”. The idea here being that some verses that speak of Christ’s return describe an army in white behind him. Dispensationalists claim these are the previously raptured church members.
I find this reason to separate the events lacking because….do we NEED a rapture for Christ to have an army of faithful? We’ve had all of history, but especially the last 2000 years where Christians have died and gone to be with Christ. We KNOW they’re already there, waiting to return with him and then receive their new bodies. So why would we need to force into the text that the church must be raptured pre-trib for this to be fulfilled? Biblically…it doesn’t.

So…those are just two examples. My point being, Dispensationalists tend to read into the text what they want to see in order to support two second comings. And I think if we’re being honest about the texts in question, and the exegetical approach in reading them…then we must question those interpretations.

Of course, having said that, I by no means claim to have everything nailed down. I probably most closely align with Amillennialism…but don’t want to really land there either, as I recognise that questions are left there as well. And…unless one is foolish, we all must acknowledge we bring our own reading biases to the text. I’m in no way opposed to having someone lay down unquestionable evidence for Dispensationalism…I’m saying that what I’ve seen so far has not been!

Hope that makes sense in regards to how I’m thinking….

 

[Naomi25]

Paul is very clear that in Christ there is neither Greek nor Jew. But he is also clear that in Christ, we have something better than under the Law, and he is also clear that there will be a future time when Isreal is nationally designated.

Much love!

Can you show me where Paul says that Israel will be nationally designated in the future?
Interested to see if I’ve missed something.
Thanks.

 

[Naomi25]

What I see is that Gentiles are coming to Christ, and it is prophesied that in a future time, when Jesus returns, all the remaining Jews will also come to faith in Christ.

What makes that two trees? We all come to faith in Christ.

Much love!

But….how is that a separate ‘plan’?
If their future salvation is just them accepting Christ as Messiah, that means that all that’s happening is that they’re being grafted back onto the tree. Which is the body of Christ. Which is the church.
Which fundamentally means that we are all the same ‘plan’ and there’s not a distinction between the two. The only real distinction is time. But…that’s something quite different from how many Dispensationalists will say that God has a ‘separate plan for Israel’.

 

[Naomi25]

There is however some debate on that. Some say the tree is Christ Himself. Some say it is Israel. Some say it is Abraham.

Much love!

I’m aware of the debate. But…I think it’s mostly moot. Let’s say that the tree itself is Christ. Or that the nourishing root is Abraham and not Christ…do we not still end up in the same place?
Consider: if Christ is the tree…all that believe in him are grafted on. Romans 11 tell us it is faith that makes one grafted to the tree. We know that Abrahams faith is what saved him. And we know our faith in Christ is what saves us. So…still we might say, like Paul, that in Christ…in faith, we are Abrahams offspring and heirs of promise.

However, if Abraham is the root, it is still his faith in God that has made ‘the dough holy’. And we are still grafted onto his tree as his offspring, following him in faith.

So…basically the result is the same. We share with Abraham both faith and promise….through our adoption into Christ.

 

[Naomi25]

I'm not sure what it means to "follow dispensationalism", but I do see differences in how God interacted with man at different times. I follow the Bible, and the Bible teaches that.

Don’t worry…I wasn’t suggesting Dispensationalist was like a cult that you ‘follow’.
One ‘follows’ a teaching…or subscribes to it, or believes it is most accurate. Any number of ways you could describe it, I suppose. We all have systems of doctrine we actively choose to follow or believe. Our ultimate belief is, as you say, scripture and it comes down to how you read it, I suppose.

.
But not "two trees". And salvation is by faith in Christ.

Again…I don’t want you to mistake me…I’m not claiming that Dispensationalists teach ‘two trees’. I’m just suggesting that if we follow the idea of ‘separate plans’…even though both those plans include coming to Christ, then by necessity it is LIKE saying there are two trees.

.
One of the key factors is that I believe God will in fact keep His promises to His chosen nation.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 KJV
31) Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32) Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34) And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35) Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36) If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37) Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

These promises will be kept.

Much love!

Ok…good. A new covenant. And what WAS this new covenant? It was a promise to remove hearts of stone and replace them with hearts of flesh…of writing his law (what was good) upon his people’s hearts.
And this is exactly what happened at Pentecost, with the arrival of the Holy Spirit. Christians…members of Christ’s body, which started with Jewish believers…are ushered into this new covenant.
So…this promise to Israel is as equally as ours as it is theres. We see it in the evidence of life change. But we also see it in how Paul talks about Gentile believers becoming Abrahams offspring…heirs of promise in Christ.
Progressive revelation means that things are being revealed in the NT about things done…things promised…in the OT. God promised Abraham that through him, and through God’s promises to him, all nations would be blessed. We are living proof of those promises. And we know it because both Jews and Gentiles are part of one body.
The fact that nothing in the NT goes on to explain or support ‘separate plans’ means that there is not going to be separate plans. Only Christ’s body.

 

[Enoch111]

If their future salvation is just them accepting Christ as Messiah, that means that all that’s happening is that they’re being grafted back onto the tree. Which is the body of Christ. Which is the church.

This is completely incorrect. It is the Church which has both Jews and Gentiles in one Body with the Gentiles grafted in. But when the "fullness of the Gentiles" is fulfilled (the full number of Gentiles within the Church), then the Church is complete and raptured, and God resumes His dealings directly with Israel through Christ. This is after the Second Coming. And it is all spelled out in Romans 11. Therefore redeemed (saved) and restored Israel is DISTINCT from the Church and will remain on earth within "Greater Israel" in the future.

 

[Curtis]

When I consider the Rapture of the Church, and when it might occur, I find a couple of things seem to hold true.

One is that there is no place that just says, it happens then, you can only know through the process of elimination.

Another is, after you've ruled out everything it can't be, the only option left is PreTrib.

One more . . . the more likely someone is to call something "symbolic", for instance, the 144,000 sealed Jews, the more likely someone is to call these things symbolic, the less likely to hold to pre-trib timing. The more literally Scripture is taken, the more likely someone will be pre-trib. These seem to go hand in hand.

If Jesus comes and first gathers Israel, and then gathers the nations to be judged according as He said, the church has to already be gone from the earth when the great tribulation begins.

If the Revelation is prophetic narrative, and when it says this happens and then that happens, that's the way it is, the church must be gone before any of the trumpets and bowls.

So to continue the one example . . . "the servant of God were sealed", John heard the number, 144,000, all Jewish men. No gentiles there, no women, and only 144 thousand of them. No church present on the earth.

Much love!

There cannot be a rapture before the second coming of Jesus.

I will continue to point out the inconvenient fact that in the pre trib rapture theory, they state that the rapture is separate from His coming, because Jesus does a U turn after collecting the saints, and goes back to heaven, thus His COMING is separate from the rapture.

However, Paul clearly says that at His COMING, we shall be gathered to be with Jesus:

2Th 2:1 Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers,

Sorry, pre trbbers, there is no secret rapture before His COMING, the two occur simultaneously.

And since the day of the lord, Zechariah 14:1 and His coming with all the saints 14:4-5, are concurrent, Paul is not talking about a separate event when He goes on to say, that our gathering to be with Him shall not be before the day of the lord, he’s not talking about two separate events - and when he says the son of perdition/abomination of desolation event must occur before the day of the Lord, that puts the rapture after the middle of Daniels 70 Th week, aka mid trib, point.

The pre trib rapture theory is wishful thinking at best.

 

[Curtis]

The great tribulation is God's wrath against this sinful God rejecting world not His church(born-again believers)
1 Thessalonians 5:9
“For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,”
Luke 21:36
Jesus says===“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Jesus had just described the great tribulation in Luke 21 when He said pray to be counted worthy to escape those things - in fact He had just described the son of perdition-abomination of desolation event occurring, verse 20-21 followed by the rapture in verse 27 - putting the rapture just past the mid trib point in Luke 21 - which is before the great tribulation period.

And the ‘not appointed to wrath’ verse is stating that all believers in Jesus avoid Gods wrath, and has nothing to do with escaping the tribulation- since we are promised we will have tribulation as believers.

Joh 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Co 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2Co 1:4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.

Ergo, the ‘not appointed to wrath’ verse, is not a ‘get out of tribulation’ card, and is out of context when applied to the pre trib rapture theory.

 

[Timtofly]

God's Glory would destroy sin flesh. See the 70 who died opening the Ark of the Covenant, Moses only saw the hinder parts and his hair turned white, no man has ever looked upon God's Full Glory.

Sin tends to do that to people.

 

[David H.]

Some of us "pre-tribbers" do not accuse, just simply show
The Biblical Evidence!:

Yes, and thank you for that. I am not making a generalization of all pre tribbers, only some.

And I have shown ample evidence for the pre wrath rapture here as well.

 

[Timtofly]

Why would I say that?
Are YOU saying that because Abraham…and every deceased faithful Jew/Christian after him and up until this moment…are currently in heaven that they cannot be a part of the Church?

Let’s remember a few key facts. The “church” is just the members of Christ’s body…those found IN him, redeemed by his blood.

We are told that Abraham was saved through his forward faith. This is why he, and the Patriarchs of Israel form the ‘olive tree’ onto which every believer in Christ is grafted onto. Regardless if they have now passed on.

In fact, we are also told that every person ‘grafted’ onto this tree…into Christ’s body…are heirs of promise…Abrahams offspring.

So what biblical evidence do we have to say that being on earth or heaven means a separation from the fundamental fact that we are all one in Christ?

You need to start there if you want to lay the foundation for your argument.


This makes no sense. Two Kingdoms? One is dead? They exist separately, physically in different places?
We have the Kingdom that Christ speaks about and refers to often in the NT. But there is nothing to suggest that that kingdom is different to another kingdom. In point of fact, even going as far back as Daniel, we are told that Christ will come and establish a kingdom that is eternal.
What proof do you have that the kingdom he pronounces is ‘among you’ is not this kingdom? That it must be separated by location and purpose?
Once again you are prying apart what is referenced in scripture as one.


My logic?
And why on earth would location speak to the key spiritual issue Paul is highlighting with his ‘tree’ metaphor?
How can we equate, biblically, the notion that being separated by place (heaven/earth) means we are not one in Christ? Where does it tell us this in scripture?

Being spiritually IN Christ is fundamentally different to where a person is situated physically. I know very well, for example, that my deceased and beloved Grandparent, were without a doubt part of the Church. The body of Christ is made up of those who are “IN” him…regardless of time period or physical location.

And claiming otherwise is like saying that because Abraham is already in heaven, then he cannot be part of the the tree. Even though Paul outright tells us that due to our unity in Christ, we are his offspring and the tree itself IS believing Israel and its Patriarchs. Location in either heaven/earth…(city/country as you put it) does NOT equal spiritual realities Paul is emphasising in Rom 11.


Except….no. This is not the metaphor Paul uses…at all. You are still trying to separate what is not separated….only you’re swapping images. And muddling in location to try and prove it.

If we stick to Paul’s symbology here, you are still saying that the Church has one tree (city) and Israel has another tree (county)…but that both must still come to Christ (the root).
That’s simply NOT what Paul is describing. He is describing one tree….both natural (Jewish) and unnatural (Gentile) believers in Christ (root) are on the SAME tree.

So…to switch that back into your imagery…the people IN Christ live in the same place…some are born in the city…others have just moved there…but they all live in the same city…share the same goods of the city.


Which means that you still believe that AFTER the ‘rapture’ everything Paul tells us about our unity in Christ and how that makes us all one body….becomes null and void.
And by all means…show me anything in the NT that supports that notion.
But right now, I’ll stick with what I know the NT does teach…and that is that we are all part of the same tree.

I am saying there are still two kingdoms. Only one tree. Christ is not a kingdom, but a tree in this symbolism.

The two kingdoms started when God separated Adam from the rest of the sons of God, and put him alone in a Garden/Paradise.

Paradise was the kingdom/city of separation from the country wide kingdom of the sons of God.


Later Israel was taken out of Egypt in the same vein.

The current church is still being taken out of the world. All this gathering on earth was to have a kingdom in Paradise to complete what God started with Adam in the Garden.

The point that God made a promise to David as part of Israel was an earthly kingdom, not the same kingdom as all were headed for in Paradise where the Garden was now located. So Adam's offspring were still going to fill up Paradise (the church) while Israel was to fill the earth.

Paul's point about the tree was a different angle than the kingdoms espoused in the Gospels. Paul never said Christ was a kingdom, but an Olive Tree. Still talking about the church, not the church separated into two kingdoms, where now Israel was cut off, but the Gentiles were now rulers of a kingdom. Even Jesus said to pray that the kingdom would come to earth, not physically but unseen spiritually to the point those on earth were all doing God's will like those in Paradise.

The Olive Tree symbolized the church as being the spiritual example. In the OT, Israel was the public example of the church. In the NT, the fulness of the Gentiles, was the example of the church. But Paradise was still the example of the kingdom of the church, and Israel was the only example of a kingdom on earth. Israel as the kingdom on earth was put on hold just as much as Israel was cut off being part of Christ.

The Second Coming will restore Israel as part of the church, but still on earth as an earthly kingdom. But the past dead already in Paradise are not returning to earth. Nor will the earthly Israel ever move into the New Jerusalem. One is still the Paradise kingdom, the other still the kingdom that covers the earth.

The 1000 year reign of Christ is to establish that earthly kingdom (Israel), while the heavenly city, Paradise was already complete at the Second Coming.

 

[n2thelight]

The Second Coming will restore Israel as part of the church, but still on earth as an earthly kingdom. But the past dead already in Paradise are not returning to earth. Nor will the earthly Israel ever move into the New Jerusalem. One is still the Paradise kingdom, the other still the kingdom that covers the earth.

The 1000 year reign of Christ is to establish that earthly kingdom (Israel), while the heavenly city, Paradise was already complete at the Second Coming.

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."