The Pre-Trib Rapture

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Naomi25

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The angels were created on day 4, also not the laying of the foundations on day one if you are so hyper literal.

In fact 4 is more removed from 1 than it is to 6 mathematically. 2 days apart is still the same time period.
I’m sorry, but…huh?
How on earth do you suppose we get ‘God created the sun, moon and stars’…as ‘God created the angels here’…? This is such a stretch not even Gumby would try.
And, when added to the passage in Job that outright TELLS us that the ‘morning stars’ and ‘the sons of God’ (regardless if you believe they are the same or different)…were there AT the laying of the foundation of the world. That also is not day 4. Or 6.
 

Taken

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The 144k are still on earth, not glorified, but sealed, and are eternally sealed even after the 7th Seal is loosed and names start being removed. Those 144k can never be removed. I do not think they ever physically die either. When they were sealed, they lost Adam's corruptible flesh and were given permanent incorruptible physical bodies. God would not seal anyone to remain in Adam's fallen flesh and blood to eternally be a sinner.

These 144k are the firstfruits and Christ the Prince's disciples for the future 1,000 year reign on earth. Just like Paul and the disciples were the firstfruits of the NT congregation for the next 1990+ years.

The 144,000 are the Lambs firstfruits Twelve Tribal representatives, already redeemed from the earth and before the throne of God waiting to be Sent to Mt Zion and Sealed with the Lambs Father’s Name in their foreheads and thereafter Preach Christ Jesus, to the tribes of Israel, (whom), shall be directed to gather in Mt Zion. <—- that has NOT YET come to pass....
They are STILL WAITING.
 

Naomi25

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Nice post, the Sacrifices were only a shadow of THE SACRIFICE to come Jesus. Which is why I see most everyone not understanding Dan. 12:11, there is no way Gabriel nor the Man in Linen (Jesus preincarnate) are speaking to Daniel about End Time Meat Sacrifices being taken away and thus defiling the temple, if they are offering meat sacrifices that in and of its self would be an abomination. They are both speaking about the Jews who repent during the 70th week, who start worshiping Messiah Jesus as Zechariah 12:10 and Zechariah 13:8-9 both show us, and then Jesus Worship is made illegal, and the Beast Man/Little Horns Image is placed in the holy of holies.

I don't have a clue what Mark was speaking about there and Egypt tbh. Maybe my post confused him, maybe he sped read it, who knows. I am trying to point out to him that the Sacrifice that is taken away in Dan. 12:11 is Jesus Worship. He is THE SACRIFICE, there is no way that the Man in Linen and Gabriel are speaking about a meat sacrifice 2000 years after Jesus paid the price for our sins, its just not a possibility. THE SACRIFCE that is stopped is Jesus Worship by the Jews who repent during the 70th week, that's why they have to flee Judea, they repented and understand Jesus' Matt. 24:15-17 words.
You know, I have not heard that interpretation of Dan 12:11 before. And I would have to agree that it is more likely than going back to the types and shadows. Not only would that not make sense in terms of God’s progressive plan of salvation, but, like you said, it would become an abomination after Christ’s work on the cross.
Thanks for the input…!!
 

Naomi25

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The bible doesn't teach that.
Ok…well, let’s see, shall we?
I said “the bible teaches that when Christ returns we see all those things described at one time. Resurrection bodies, the wicked being judged, the earth and heavens being dissolved in fire which usher in the eternal heavens and earth where sin and death are no more.”

Claim 1 - we are given our resurrection bodies at Christ’s return:

1 Corinthians 15:21-23, 52
For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
…in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Matthew 24:30-31
Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.


Claim 2 - the wicked will be judged at Christ’s return:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
..and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

Matthew 25:31-32, 46
When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats….
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


Claim 3 - the earth and heavens being dissolved in fire at Christ’s return:

2 Peter 3:4, 10
They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”…
But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.


Claim 4 - the dissolving of the current natural order will usher in the new heavens and earth.

2 Peter 3:11-13
Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness, waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.


Revelation 21:1
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
 

CadyandZoe

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The Second Coming is the only sign of the Second Coming.
Yes, but Jesus is making another, more critical statement in that context. He is talking about the sign "of the son of man." This phrase, as I argue in my video, has special meaning attached to it, which comes from Daniel 7. Jesus claimed to be THAT particular son of man, and on that basis he was accused of blasphemy and put to death on a cross.
 

Truther

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There is great tribulation, generational since 30AD. There is tribulation like no other, after the Second Coming.

The Second Coming does not end the GT, it makes it shorter. The Second Coming is after the 1990+ years of great tribulation.

Thanks for those verses, but even you quoted them out of the order They were written in to make a point.

You pieced together an explanation. Not the only explanation out there.

Do you realize there is tribulation even today? Many are being attacked and martyred for their faith, or is that not tribulation as you would define tribulation? What is happening in those 42 months in the last verse you quoted?

The Second Coming is not pre-trib, because there has always been trouble on earth. The Second Coming will always be after some tribulation.
I don't see the events of the book of Rev happening today, so no.

Raising teens in America must be your idea of Rev events unfolding.

Good luck.

Rev was not written by Dr. Phil.
 
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marks

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Again…I cannot countenance that notion.
I have to, because Jesus said it. And I don't see any issues with it, and it all harmonizes to me.

Jesus explained that He didn't mean He was a loaf of bread, but where does He explain the judgement isn't what He in great detail said it was?

Much love!
 

marks

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I cannot agree to this.
Faith that God would do as He said He would, in covering their sins, that was the message. Just as we believe God will do what He said He would do in removing our sins, giving new life in Christ. To the Jews, this was a promise yet to be seen. For us, it is the message of Salvation.

Just like Abraham, faith that God would do as He said He would do, giving Him multitudes of children.

You know, I'm reading through some of your recent posts, I must not be writing well, you've seemed to take quite a few of mine in ways I didn't mean.

For instance dispensationalism isn't a system I use, it just describes what I see. Things like that. I find this increasing complicated to try to respond to.

Much love!
 

Timtofly

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We know that because Christ had not yet come in the OT, that they could not directly place their faith in him and his atoning work. However, we must recognise the continual promises IN the OT of the coming Messiah.
Of course all since Abraham could put their faith in the Atonement of a future Cross. Probably before that as well. Job being the only example prior to Abraham.

"By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure."

No one since Isaac, has not seen an example of God Himself and the willingness to give up a son as an Atonement. The OT had an example and were without excuse.

The first century Jews were not looking for a Messiah. They were looking for a Prince. They were looking for a Prince to continue their way of life forever.

Abraham was already their example of putting faith and trust in a sacrificial offering. What the Jews missed is that Abraham met Jesus Christ whom they would kill, after He had suffered on the Cross. In fact people today do not see that Abraham saw the nail prints, and completely understood what a resurrection was. Even though this is Abraham's own confession:

"And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together."
 

marks

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An AoD was the defiling of the Temple in Antiochus' time, but its not THE Abomination of Desolation Jesus spoke about. That will be when a False Prophet in the END TIMES places an Image of a Man in the Holy of Holies, which will defile the temple. The only reason it is made whole however is because Israel REPENTS at the 1335 and turns to Jesus as their Messiah. They start worshiping Jesus in the temple and the High Priest at that time will then FORBOD Jesus Worship and place an Image of some type in the temple of God's holy of holies.


No, how can they run parallel when one dies 75 days before the other one dies ? Why is that si hard for people to grasp. Let me demonstrate.

If you and I are FORETOLD by some Swami who know all things to both be a Governor for 100 days, and In take suddenly die on July 14 2022, and you serve until August 14 2022 could we both be governors for the exact same time period? Of course not, its simple math, all we would have to do is back track 100 days from each term and where it ended and if one term ended 30 days before the other term then in order to both have terms which lasted 100 days, the other term would have to start 30 days sooner than his Its just simple math.

Likewise the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, so how can they run concurrent? It takes much prayer and diligent study to understand end time events.

Overlapping then, is that right? With this small offset?

Much love!
 

marks

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And I’m sorry…but how is it wrong to consider the whole of scriptural weight when we consider a topic?
And of course I do this also.

Somehow I've really given off some misleading impressions or something!

Much love!
 
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marks

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But where? Where does it SAY this? Where can we find anywhere in the NT even a hint of this? Every passage we look at since Christ came tells us those barriers have been broken down in Christ. How…where…do you suggest we look for evidence elsewhere? If we cannot understand the OT…the types and shadows…in light of the progressive revelation of the NT…then aren’t we essentially invalidating whatever the NT says?
Here again, I'm just following where the Word leads me.

God will still give Israelites allotments in the promised land, for instance. This remains a distinctive, even as it remains true that "of the two he makes one new man". Both of these things are true, and they are not talking about the same things.

Neither one should be invalidated. I hold to the validity of both.

Much love!
 
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Timtofly

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Of course Christ is opening the seals ,and He's showing you what happens at each . I agree the 2nd coming will be the greatest event ever ,yet that doesn't change the fact ,that there's no rapture before this happens .

Not giving satan credit for anything ,as he will do that which God allows ,number one being deception. You IMO worry about the flesh to much, when the state of your very soul is at stake
The rapture is the Second Coming. That happens at the 6th Seal. That is before the 7th Seal.

The Trumpets cannot start until after the 7th Seal. The Second Coming is chronologically prior to this period of tribulation that many call the last and greatest tribulation of all the tribulation since Adam disobeyed God.

It will be even greater than the Flood. The Flood compared to the Second Coming was rather quick, and people dead in hours or a few days. Drowning is quick even if painful. The Tribulation is more drawn out and methodical. The Second Coming is not one instantaneous fire ball.

This is not about the flesh. If you meant the difference between the physical and spiritual, all do not need to worry. But at the Second Coming there will be no distinction between the physical and spiritual. It will be one creation and no more spiritual blindness period. All of Satan's virtual physical reality will dissappear in a puff of smoke and we will see God's full creation, both heaven and earth. The sons of God will be seen as the sons of God. The stars will be seen as the angels. No more hiding behind symbolism.
 

GRACE ambassador

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the 2nd coming will be the greatest event ever ,yet that doesn't change the fact ,that there's no rapture before this happens .
+
The rapture is the Second Coming. That happens at the 6th Seal. That is before the 7th Seal.
Respectfully Disagree, because of the Evidence of The Following Scriptures:

Part I

God’s PRE - TOJT Great GRACE Departure!:

----------------------------------------------------------------------

LORD JESUS, we beseech Thee Now For Thy Divine Understanding
In This Thy Most Important Doctrine For our Comfort And Consolation.
Amen. (1 Thessalonians 4:18)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Time Of JACOB’s {Israel's} Trouble (TOJT), Ending With The
Second Coming
, is found in God's Context:

God's Prophetic Program, Under LAW, gospel of the kingdom
(“ages” past/future) (Genesis-John; Hebrews-Revelation)

God’s “Earthly Kingdom” Purpose From “the foundation of the world”
(Matthew 25:34)

God's Purpose Prophesied “since the world began” (Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21!)

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

Great GRACE Departure!

Pre-TOJT Resurrection/Departure of The Body Of CHRIST,
Ending God’s Age Of GRACE,
Is Found In God's Other Context:

God's Revelation Of The Mystery, Under The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God
{ Current = “But NOW!” } (Romans through Philemon!)

God’s “Heavenly Hidden” Purpose Before “the foundation of the world”
(Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9!)

God's Heavenly Purpose Kept Secret “since the world began”
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 1:4-11, 3:5-9!)

-------------------

The Second Coming, According to Prophecy:

(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming On a white horse, With Crowns On
His Head, And A Sword In His Mouth! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(3) CHRIST Is Coming With, (which Were In Heaven!),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)

(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With ONE army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:11, 15)

(5) With Another trumpet (AFTER "the 7th angel trumpet” in heaven), on
the earth, Angels Are SENT, By The KING, TO: “gather the elect”...
(Matthew 24:31; Mark 13:27!)

(6)...for the “judgment of the Earthly Nations” By The Son of man, The King!
(Matthew 25:31-46!)

(7) Those Judged as righteous then enter the kingdom! And the UNrighteous
then Depart into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels!
(Matthew 25:34-46!)

To be continued...
 

GRACE ambassador

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Part II

(Previously) The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That DIFFER!” {online}:

The Great GRACE Departure, According to The Heavenly Mystery!:

(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)

(2) CHRIST Is Coming With A Shout, With the voice of an archangel,
And With The Trump of God! (1 Thessalonians 4:16!)

3) God (JESUS CHRIST) Will Bring With Him {those who Were With
Him In Heaven}, part Of His Own, those who are “asleep In JESUS!”
(2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:21-23; 1 Thessalonians 4:13!)

(4) CHRIST Descends With One archangel, Will resurrect those
asleep {in 3)} First, and Then, we “which are alive and remain,” {which
Is A Mystery!}, will be changed/all “incorruptible, And Caught Up”
together to meet The LORD in the air, in the “twinkling of an eye!”
(1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 1 Corinthians 15:52-53!)

(5) CHRIST “Gathers His Body” To Himself, to Take them To Heaven...
(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15:49; 2 Corinthians 12:2, 5:1-2;
Ephesians 1:3, 20, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; 2 Timothy 4:18!)

6)...For The Judgment Seat Of CHRIST, For HIS Heavenly Body,
By The Head Himself!... (Romans 2:6, 16, 14:10-12;
1 Corinthians 3:8-15, 4:5, 6:20; 2 Corinthians 5:10;
Ephesians 6:8; Colossians 3:24-25!)

(7a) ...After Judgment, the GRACE assembly Is Then Presented as
A Glorious Church, To CHRIST Himself!... (Ephesians 5:27!)

(7b) ...And, Then CHRIST Will Present His Body, holy and
unblameable and unreproveable, In His Sight, To His Father,
In Heaven
, Where we Live * Forever And Ever! Amen!
(1 Thessalonians 3:13; Colossians 1:5, 22;
1 Corinthians 6:3; 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 KJB!)

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST, Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning! Amen?

---------------------------------------------------------------
LORD JESUS, thank You so much for Your Precious BLOOD,
Gift Of ETERNAL Salvation,
And for Your Blessed Hope of
Glorification
When You Come To Finally Gather us Home! Amen.
---------------------------------------------------------
Please Be Very Richly Edified, Encouraged, And Comforted! And:

Precious friend(s), see you In God's Great GloryLand!!:) ↑ Tim?

Time TO FLY? Into The LIGHT! ----- ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ ↑ Amen?
 
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Timtofly

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An AoD was the defiling of the Temple in Antiochus' time, but its not THE Abomination of Desolation Jesus spoke about. That will be when a False Prophet in the END TIMES places an Image of a Man in the Holy of Holies, which will defile the temple. The only reason it is made whole however is because Israel REPENTS at the 1335 and turns to Jesus as their Messiah. They start worshiping Jesus in the temple and the High Priest at that time will then FORBOD Jesus Worship and place an Image of some type in the temple of God's holy of holies.


No, how can they run parallel when one dies 75 days before the other one dies ? Why is that si hard for people to grasp. Let me demonstrate.

If you and I are FORETOLD by some Swami who know all things to both be a Governor for 100 days, and In take suddenly die on July 14 2022, and you serve until August 14 2022 could we both be governors for the exact same time period? Of course not, its simple math, all we would have to do is back track 100 days from each term and where it ended and if one term ended 30 days before the other term then in order to both have terms which lasted 100 days, the other term would have to start 30 days sooner than his Its just simple math.

Likewise the Two-witnesses die at the 2nd Woe, the Beast dies when Jesus returns at the 7th Vial, so how can they run concurrent? It takes much prayer and diligent study to understand end time events.

The 7th Trumpet event starts in Revelation 10 not 11. In fact the 7 Thunders come between the 2nd and 3rd woe. The 7 Thunders come between the 6th and 7th Trumpets.

What you claim is the beast starts in the 5th Trumpet woe. The 5th Trumpet is the first woe. The 5th Trumpet is the opening of the pit. It is a woe because the locust torment for 5 months and no one can die. 5 months is around 150 days. You can put 2 more days if two of those months has 31 days, or 3 more days if three of those months has 31 days. So the beast (Satan) is free on the earth at least that long before the 7th Trumpet brings events to a close.

The 6th Trumpet is the second woe, but still not the time of the 2 witnesses. The 6th Trumpet is not even about the locust from the 5th Trumpet. It is a totally different army of formidable torment and those kill a third of humanity, 2 billion people.

Now we have a hold on the Trumpets and the woes. Revelation 10 starts out with 7 Thunders, but John was not allowed to write about them. So the Thunders are complete but nothing written about them, then we have these verses:

"And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven, And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer: But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

Any point after this deals only with the third woe and the 7th Trumpet. The only carry over from the previous woes is Satan and his angels. The 2 witnesses apply to the days of the 7th Trumpet. Anything that happens from that point on is part of the days of the 7th Trumpet. So from Revelation 11 to Revelation 19 is covered in the sounding of the 7th Trumpet, or will not happen at all.

Revelation 12 ties Israel into the narrative, and explains that those angels loosed in the 5th Trumpet now have to be cast out of heaven. So after 5 months of torment on earth, they have again attempted to enter heaven. The third woe is that Satan's time is short, or not at all, and any humans on earth their time is up. The 7th Trumpet brings the final harvest to a close.

Trying to figure out the days that where already experienced with Antiochus Epiphanies is interesting, and it seems many are dead set that history should repeat itself.

What about history not repeating itself and all come to the knowledge of Salvation, so there is a glorious harvest instead of a terrifying harvest?
 

No Pre-TB

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The last vial is the 7th. The last trumpet is the 7th. Paul knew about the 7 trumpets and addressed the last one. It is the 7th trump that Christ returns in. No surprise that it is the last one.
I guess you didn’t see the sarcasm either. Yes, the last vial is the 7th. But it is quite common that a Pre-Tber will say Paul didn’t know about the 7th Trumpet. Honestly, a person who believes the 7th Trumpet coincides with the resurrection doesn’t need that argument to be right. It’s really an argument that will be argued against. But there’s plenty of other scripture and writings of the early church that show it if one knows where to look. Showing those things on these forums only brings contention and debates.
 

marks

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I’m sorry, but…huh?
How on earth do you suppose we get ‘God created the sun, moon and stars’…as ‘God created the angels here’…? This is such a stretch not even Gumby would try.
And, when added to the passage in Job that outright TELLS us that the ‘morning stars’ and ‘the sons of God’ (regardless if you believe they are the same or different)…were there AT the laying of the foundation of the world. That also is not day 4. Or 6.

Psalms 104:1-7 KJV
1) Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2) Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3) Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4) Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5) Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6) Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7) At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.

Genesis 1:1-9 KJV
1) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4) And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5) And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6) And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7) And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

{Angels created here}
8) And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9) And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

I think the angels were created either second or third day.

Much love!
 

marks

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But it is quite common that a Pre-Tber will say Paul didn’t know about the 7th Trumpet.
Where do you find your pretribbers who say such things? Seriously! I've been in pretrib circles, and in rapture debates, for a long time, I don't find this common in the least! Or was that sarcasm also?

Much love!