The Pre-Trib Rapture

[marks]

No it doesn't two Rev. tells you NO ONE CAN HURT the Two-witnesses with counteracts that other verse, but at the same time these are not human being, they have already received their Glorious bodies.

This is how you solve it then, but where in the Bible can you support this view?

Revelation 13:6-7 YLT
6) and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,
7) and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.

If these witnesses are "holy ones", then the beast is given power to overcome them.

Revelation 11:3-7 YLT
3) and I will give to My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy days, a thousand, two hundred, sixty, arrayed with sackcloth;
4) these are the two olive trees , and the two lamp-stands that before the God of the earth do stand;
5) and if any one may will to injure them, fire doth proceed out of their mouth, and doth devour their enemies, and if any one may will to injure them, thus it behoveth him to be killed.
6) These have authority to shut the heaven, that it may not rain rain in the days of their prophecy, and authority they have over the waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the land with every plague, as often as they may will.
7) 'And when they may finish their testimony, the beast that is coming up out of the abyss shall make war with them, and overcome them, and kill them,

Much love!

 

[marks]

Haha. It’s funny you said that Marks. For me, it’s just the opposite. I hear the Pre-TB Rev 4:1 rapture too, but less frequently nowadays. And you’re right, it depends on what circles we’re in.

There ya go! That's how it works.



I've never met any two people who have the same eschatology. Broad stokes, yes, but in the small details, no.

I have an idea about that.

@naomi and I have been discussing the Sheep/Goats judgment. Her thought - many share this - is that the judgment expressed - Declared righteous if you've done the right things - isn't really that, a judgment of righteousness based on works, because "it doesn't work that way". Other passages declare we are saved by faith and not of works, so this can't actually be a declaration of righteousness based on works.

So she comes to the passage seeking for what it is really saying, if not the face meaning.

Meanwhile, I take the face meaning as the real meaning, and figure that to understand how this harmonizes with passages that say we are saved by grace through faith and not works, that there is something more that will bring these together, so I want to find the passages to show me the truth while preserving the meaning of this "difficult" text.

Those who interpret in the first way, "It can't mean that, so what does it mean?" will generally speaking come to different ideas. I think this is why so many different views.

Those who interpret in the second way, "It says that, so it must mean that", will come to the same ideas, because the words have meanings, and the meanings don't change, and we are all reading the same Book.

If there is unity in knowledge of Christ to be gained from the Bible, I believe it can only be in the second way, not the first way.

Much love!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

This is how you solve it then, but where in the Bible can you support this view?

Revelation 13:6-7 YLT
6) and it did open its mouth for evil-speaking toward God, to speak evil of His name, and of His tabernacle, and of those who in the heaven tabernacle,
7) and there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them, and there was given to it authority over every tribe, and tongue, and nation.

If these witnesses are "holy ones", then the beast is given power to overcome them.

Apollyon (Scarlet Colored Beast) kills the two-witnesses, not the Anti-Christ, but that's not the overall point anyway. To be given power over something or someone means you have that power all the time, but the Two-witnesses dominate the Beast, they are the ones who PRAY DOWN God's plagues, Just like Moses brought forth God's word of the coming plagues in Egypt. Why do you think the world hates them so much? Supposedly people send gifts to each other when they die, I think that's just prose telling us the whole world is elated when they die. But you saying that the Beast has power over them makes zero sense. The two-witnesses are 1185 days into BRINGING God's Plagues onto these Beast kingdoms which will kill billions of people, and no one can harm them, PERIOD, lest they be killed themselves trying to, thus they PRAY and an Asteroid strikes (First Four Trumps) then they pray and Demons torture men with the Mark of the Beast for 5 months (1st Woe), then they Pray and Angels kill 1/3 of all men who have the Mark of the Beast(2nd Woe), then they pray and the 3rd Woe Comes quickly, BUT......only then does God allow them to die at the exact moment that their Ministry is over(1260 days), they have prayed for the 7th Trump to sound and the 3rd Woe to fall, but they die first, why? Their Ministry is over, did Jesus "REALLY DIE" ?

You can't kill God, these Two-witnesses can not be touched until their ministry is over after 1260 days, which starts 75 days before the Beast comes to power and then they die 1185 days into the Beasts reign as the Beast which like I stated above, starts 75 days after the Two-witnesses comes on the scene, thus the Beast still has 75 days to rule after they die. So, you are telling me the Beast can not touch them for 1185 days but "he has POWER over them?" Come on man, that's an illogical reply !! God only allows them to be killed to give us a Juxtaposition unto the Beasts TIMELINE, that's why they die after the exact length of time the Beast will serve, on day 1260, thus we can figure out ALL THE TIMELINES via simple math. Since the two-witnesses show up 75 days before the Beast and thus have to die 75 days before the Beast dies, we therefore know the 3rd Woe lasts for exactly 75 days.

With people all around the globe watching on live TV, the Two-witnesses pray down all of these plagues onto the world, (these people will not understand that its Angels slaying them and bringing plagues against them) so the world (Vial #6) would never gather to battle with the objection to try and kill all of the Jews if the two-witnesses were still alive, because the worls is afraid of their powers. (the Two-witnesses were just Jews in their mind, they probably will not even understand they were Elijah and Moses in Glorious bodies) But because they see the Two-witnesses as "their biggest problem" who has "TERORIZED THE WHOLE WORLD" and then we they see them die, the whole world becomes elated an d will gain confidence after the first 5 Vials are poured out because everything all of the sudden will SUDDENLY STOP, this allows Satan via the Anti-Christ to GATHER all the Kings (leaders) from the whole world to try and take out Israel, but Jesus shows up at Armageddon instead foiling their plans (SMILE, we win).

If you saw millions or billions of humans die at "two peoples hands" (and whatsoever they announced came to pass) and some quasi leader (President etc.) told you lets go make war with these two men, after seeing their Egyptian like Plagues on mankind would you go to war? I doubt it, but after you see them DIE and lay in the streets 3 1/2 days (God could have taken them up right away, He's giving the evil men false hope) then and only them might you say, BRAVO..........Lets go get the rest of them, those two "FREAKS" are dead !!

You can't say they have power over the Two-witnesses, that's why I point out God only allows the Two-witnesses to die, IMHO, in order to juxtapose THE TIMELINES, and to give the world COURAGE to go to war with Israel.

God allows men to be deceived because they want to be deceived, thus He sends confusion unto them.

 

[Timtofly]

How…is this not obvious?
This age = temporal (definition - of or relating to time as opposed to eternity, of or relating to earthly life)
The Age to Come = things eternal.

Which obviously means that we can classify ‘this age’ as relating to the fall up unto Christ’s return, as that is the time frame both humans and this current world has been under the influence of sin.
And that ‘the age to come’ is from Christ’s return …forever.

I see it as this current creation. When this creation is finished, God creates a new and different creation. At least on that grand scale. I think context matters as well to further define an age.

No created beings go into eternity outside of a creation, unless they are dead. No one can even agree if the Lake of Fire is a separate creation, or if it is part of any created reality.

That would be my take on temporal. We never leave a temporal for existence outside of creation. What would we do without any creation to exist in? Even divine beings are still created and part of a temporal creation. The Trinity itself is God manifesting Himself in current creation. Yet no person in the Trinity is limited to this creation. That does not make 3 different God's though. Still one God interacting in creation with 3 distinct persons.

There also is no difference between temporal and heaven. They both are temporal created places. That is why we have heaven as measured in "days", while earth is measured in "millenia".

But I don't see the ages taken in context just two different creations, as I agree with Paul, ages are also dispensations on earth itself. That age where folks don't marry like angels don't marry, happened at the Cross. Those in Paradise have been in "that age" since 30AD temporal earth time. That age has been almost 2 days in Paradise. Not really enough time to date and get to know you that well time. But seriously, procreation already happened on earth. No need for a second chance at procreation once in Paradise, even if you reject the notion it has only been 2 days for them.

The distinction in context for that age is a physical resurrection. Not a brand new creation. The question asked was about physical death and once resurrected is their marriage, because the trick question was she was married to 7 brothers, but outlived them all. They wondered if there would be a fight over her I guess, that God would have to resolve. Jesus did not say, "in some brand new creation". Jesus said this:

"For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying,"

Jesus did not even say all humanity is going to be resurrected at one time in a single group. An age in this context is an ongoing phenomenon.

The resurrection mentioned was the resurrection of the Cross. When Jesus resurrected those out of Abraham's bosom and gave them physical life in Paradise. Jesus never even answered them, but gave them God's Word. It was not about being dead, but being alive, because God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. The first resurrection was the Cross.

Again, you seem to be missing the obvious.

Jesus is drawing a direct comparison between what we shall be, and what the angels are, in the sense of whether we marry or not. In other words, he is saying that ‘they don’t marry…we won’t marry’, in THAT way we will be alike. But to say that ‘because we both don’t marry we are therefore angels’ is a logical fallacy called affirming the consequent.

And no…still not ‘angels’ before the fall. It doesn’t say that, so I’m not gonna believe that.

Humans can never be angels. They are sons of God. Angels can appear as humans, but they will never be sons of God. Only sons of God could procreate when on earth. But that time ended at the Flood. There was no special time or another creation from before Genesis 1:1.

Who is claiming there are 3 or 4 types of ‘beings’?
God, heavenly beings (which I am reluctant to simply call ‘angels’ because ‘angel’ is simply ‘messenger’, and while some heavenly beings were certainly messengers, that is by no means all of them; there are cherubim, seraphim…watchers), and humans.
Humans were never the same as heavenly beings…they were always human. Fallen human after the garden, but human no less. That is why heavenly beings are not said to have ‘the image of God’.

I suppose we do not have kings and presidents then as humans. Angels are all angels even if they have an hierarchy like humans do. Being a king does not make you another type of human. One of the oldest surviving civilizations practiced a cast system for thousands of years, which recently has been denounced as being demoralizing. Yet we think it great that there are different types of angels?

And there are humans still sons of God. And at the Second Coming the redeemed will be restored back to being full sons of God.

Still only angels and humans.

Here’s a question…IF humans were ‘angels’ to begin with…and that’s what ‘God’s image’ was…AND if we then assume that ‘angelic’ beings share that image…indeed, were the very same as what we USED to be….WHY are the ‘fallen angels’ not simply men…like ‘fallen men’ apparently become??

I never claimed sons of God were "angels". That is your erroneous interpretation. I stand by the fact the sons of God were those created on the 6th day. The term got lost in history and "man" was the replacement term used to point that out. After Noah and his 3 sons, all mankind were only known as fallen humanity in Adam's corruptible flesh and blood image. No one called them sons of God after that and rightly so. The sons of God were forgotten pre-flood history. Sin changed the whole dynamic of creation. That is why creation groans under the weight of that sin.

Obviously God did not explain every detail of creation in one chapter. It would have taken several encyclopedia sets. Probably one for each of the 6 days.

 

[Timtofly]

So…when we are told that some of the ‘natural branches are cut off’, we understand that while we don’t take ‘branches’ to be literal, we DO understand the image and POINT being made…they certainly were cut off.

So then all were named in the Lamb's book of life, but later some removed. That is not literally the same thing as removing branches and grafting others in. Because you would have to graft names into the book to be on equal metaphorical terms.

But there is no reference in Scripture whatsoever about names grafted into the Lamb's book of life.

So was the olive tree about corporate Israel and corporate Gentiles, or on a more personal level where there are neither Jews nor Gentiles?

How do you resolve the discrepancy?

Even Israel had two branches not just one. But are you conflating the whole as being the same as individual branches where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile?

The point about the branches is corporate. But not the Atonement itself. God using Israel in the OT was representative status as ambassadors for God. The NT church became the new Ambassadors. So the corporate level is about representing God, not about one's individual Atonement status.

The Ambassadorship is what was cut off, not the ability to receive salvation.

 

[marks]

So, you are telling me the Beast can not touch them for 1185 days but he has POWER over them? Come on man, that's an illogical reply !!

That's what I'm saying. Having power but not having that power is not logical. That's why my view seems the logical one to me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You can't say they have power over the Two-witnesses, that's why I point out God only allows the Two-witnesses to die, IMHO, in order to juxtapose THE TIMELINES, and to give the world COURAGE to go to war with Israel.

God allowing the witnesses to be killed, then lay in the streets, then ascend to heaven, will give the authentification of their prophecy to those so inclined.

Revelation 11:11-13 YLT
11) And after the three days and a half, a spirit of life from God did enter into them, and they stood upon their feet, and great fear fell upon those beholding them,
12) and they heard a great voice out of the heaven saying to them, 'Come up hither;' and they went up to the heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them;
13) and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men—seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

Much love!

 

[Ronald D Milam]

13) and in that hour came a great earthquake, and the tenth of the city did fall, and killed in the earthquake were names of men—seven thousands, and the rest became affrighted, and they gave glory to the God of the heaven.

These are 7000 (which mean 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or COMPLETENESS, not 7000) the rest of the Jews whom did not repent originally, and flee to Judea but whom God chose to spare from this earthquake, they suddenly give praise unto God, God saw their hearts and like Nicodemus, He knew that in their hearts they would worship the true God when shown the facts, thus he spared these men in spite of their hard heartedness. But Gid FOREKNOWING ALL THINGS, knew they would worship God when they finally saw the truth, just like Paul who murdered people.

Lets say you are a Jew, and all 15 million Jews (pretty much) are back in Israel in these end times. And 1/3 of them (Zechariah 13:8-9...WHICH = 5 Million Jewish Saints) repent at the 1335 and flee at the 1290, but 2/3 refuse to accept Christ Jesus as the Messiah (10 million). The Anti-Christ wants to kill every Jew, but he only manages to kill 9 1/2 million out of the 10 million by the time Jesus shows up (Earthquake) everyone whom God knows loves evil will be taken out by this earthquake, God who foreknows all, saves the few whom He knows has a heart like David's, even though David sinned, He truly loved God.

None of this you posted though has anything to do with my points above. The Beast has no power over the Two-witness until their 1260 day Ministry is over. God only ALLOWS them to be killed, IMHO, to give the world leaders a false sense of hope.

Lets say you are an EVIL WORLD LEADER named Markie Mark .....and you have sat around for over 3 years watching two men praying on live TV, they pray that an Asteroid will hit the earth in a few days, the Scientist laugh and say NO WAY, its going to miss us by 19,000 miles, then it hits in the Pacific Ocean just off the California Coastline and 1/3 of the world gets destroyed by fires smoke, the impact etc. etc. and the world turns dark by 1/3 because of all the smoke, then they Pray on live TV that a Demon horde would hurt men who have taken the Mark of the Beast but would not kill them and for 5 months, but instead you all suffered unbearable pain so much so you wanted to just die !! Then after those 5 Months these two men prayed on LIVE TV and asked God to send Angels (200 Million) to slay 1/3 of all mankind who have taken the Mark of the Beast, and you are hiding in a cave, but you do not realize you cant really hide from the Angel of Death (see the Ten Commandments Movie and the Plagues in Egypt) so when you survived you were really just fortunate. Then they pray on live TV for the 7th Trump to blow and the 3rd Woe to come quickly, and then they suddenly just DIE, and lay in the streets for 3 1/2 days, they then ascend to Heaven. You would no doubt celebrate their deaths if you were the evil Markie Mark !! Then after the 5 Vials are poured out you are still frightened, but all of the sudden everything STOPS !!! (This is what is meant by the Euphrates is DRIED UP, there is no river, that is a metaphor, it just means God gives them a FALSE HOPE and a PATHWAY to victory, the Two-witnesses are dead and gone and the Plagues have now stopped, the Demons thus gather the kings of the whole world, who by now have great hatred for the Jews, and ole Markie Mark now has his confidence back!! The whole world and all of its leaders now want to kill every last Jew, seeing as what these two Jewish Leaders did unto this whole world has caused much destruction and many 100s of millions of deaths (maybe 1-2 billion deaths).

BUT........On the way to get those Jews hiding in the Petra/Bozrah area, Jesus shows up and thus the earthquake, and thus Armageddon breaks out and thus God will wipe out all of those kings and their minions. Come Lord Come, Amen.

 

[Timtofly]

IF, however, the scroll is the Lamb’s book of Life. And until it is opened, every name ever thought of under the sky is in there and cannot be removed…wouldn’t that have the opposite effect of weeping? Wouldn’t it actually be a cause for joy? At that moment, everyone was safe and well ‘in the book’.

Again, your logic doesn’t add up, and you have not proved anything via scripture.

Nope. The book was opened and all were rejoicing. Names being removed was not something to worry about in heaven.

Is not the point the same about redemption? The reason they were named in the book is because of redemption, not because they had a physical life. No one else besides the Lamb made the book possible to begin with. Having names written in it does not change the purpose of the book. Those names are the entire purpose of the book.

It was the Lamb slain before the foundation, not the book itself, without a Lamb slain.

 

[Naomi25]

Humans were never Angels.
Angels ARE created “spirits”.
Angels were created WITH, the knowledge of Gods TRUTH.
Humans ARE creations that “HAVE a spirit”.
A Humans “natural” spirit, IS, his truth in his Heart.
A Humans “natural spirit”, that IS “born again”, becomes a spiritual spirit, having been “GIVEN” Gods Truth.

Human spirits can become “LIKE” Angel spirits.....both having the Knowledge of Gods TRUTH IN THEM.
Being LIKE something, does not mean BECOMING that something.

BOTH Angels AND Humans HAVE “FREEWILL”.
Angels CAN Freely “KEEP” the Knowledge and Belief of Gods TRUTH...or
....Reject Gods Truth, and decide for themselves WHAT “their” Truth shall be.
Lucifer...was a Heavenly holy Angel, given great beauty, and given great power....and......he BELIEVED “HE” could RISE ABOVE GOD, be greater than God.
....That IS A LIE. Lucifer ONLY has the limit of Power, the greatness of Power, that God GIVES him. Because Lucifer believed he COULD rise above God...he effectually ...was KILLING Gods WORD of TRUTH....and that is WHY, he is CALLED the first MURDERER....the first to KILL the Word of God....and the First to be cast OUT/DOWN of his first Estate, ie Heaven...thus;
~ his name changed...from Lucifer to Satan
~ his status changed..from Holy to Evil
~ his estate changed..from Heaven to Earth
~ his reputation changed..from true and faithful servant of God to corrupt, conniving, liar, murderer, deceitful, evil, enemy of God.

Earthly men DO NOT BEGIN their natural LIVES....holy or faithful
Earthly men ARE OFFERED by the Grace of God, A WAY, by, through, Gods WORD/Jesus, to become ENLIGHTENED, to Gods Knowledge, and Gifted with Gods FAITH, for Hearing Gods WORD.
Earthly men ARE OFFeRED by the Grace of God, A WAY, by, through, of Christ, to become FORGIVEN, by the authority of the Lord;
To be soul SAVED (restored to good as it was when God gave it to man), (ie PSS 23:3),
and become spirit QUICKENED (receiving Gods Seed, via the Baptism of the HS, OF the Lamb of God, delivered to a man via, the Power of God, (ie Christ).
THEN is a man....become “LIKE” the Holy Angels of God.
THEN is a man....in his “LIKENESS” of Gods Holy Angels....Prepared and Able, to BE “LIKE” Gods Holy Angels “SERVANTS”....meaning a Converted man...
HAS all the “tools” so to speak....TO BE a “holy faithful SERVANT of God”...
(To which Gods has promised REWARDS for any man, WHO DOES “use his tools”....and actually SERVE GOD....by “SERVING other men”, according TO Gods WORD.....
Same concept as Jesus taught....Jesus came AS A SERVANT OF GOD...to SERVE MEN ON EARTH...by speaking Gods word to others, by helping others in distress, by giving without receiving from others, etc. ALL for Gods glory...(not glory for the man giving)....but FOR Gods Glory.

I think you need to address this post to timtofly.
My question was directed at him because he has some very odd and unbiblical ideas about men/heavenly beings.

 

[No Pre-TB]

These are 7000 (which mean 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or COMPETENESS, not 7000) the rest of the Jews whom did not repent originally,

Ronald, how do we know they are only Jews? Not Arabs or those who identify as Christian or others? What I’m suggesting is, the text doesn’t tell us their nationality or their bloodline. The context is that people will change. They will acknowledge God, right?

 

[marks]

These are 7000 (which mean 7 x 10 x 10 x 10 or COMPETENESS, not 7000)

There's the difference between me and many here. For me, this is 7000.

Let me ask you . . . if there were an actual 7,000 person death toll from the quake, What would God have to say to you so you'd believe that? Just wondering . . . but this is why we come to different conclusions I think.

Much love!

 

[Naomi25]

Hi Naomi,

We're on the same page in the complications of our conversation. I enjoy our dialog, and I wouldn't like to see it end, but I do want it to be fruitful

Did Abraham have the promise of a coming Messiah? Are we told that? What we are told is that God told Abraham that he's be the father of multitudes, and Abraham believed in God, and it was counted to him for righteousness.

I'm trying to point to 2 things in this. When __________ believed in God when God said ____________, it was counted for righteousness.

And you can fill in the blanks, Abraham, promise of children; Israelites, sacrifices will cover sins; you and I, Jesus died and rose again.

In each case, we believe the message God gave to us, believing in Him, Himself. God is the same, faith in Him is the same, but the message has changed over the years.

Genesis 15:1-6 KJV
1) After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2) And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3) And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.
4) And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5) And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.
6) And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

This was the promise. And he believed in the Lord, and He counted it to him for righteousness.

Well…I’m most happy to do so, although I do suspect we are talking past each other a little. How many times ought we each repeat the thought we are trying to communicate without the other really ‘getting’ it?
But again…happy to keep trying if you are!


Was Abraham faithful for believing God’s promise he would have a child? Absolutely! However, when we read about Abraham further, we start understanding that the promise was not just for that one child…Isaac. There were deeper…fuller…implications in Abraham having a child.

Genesis 12:1-3
Now the LORD said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation, and I will bless you and make your name great, so that you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”

Romans 4:13
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.

Galatians 3:8, 14
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “In you shall all the nations be blessed.”…
..so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

Hebrews 11:8-10, 13
By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise. For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God…..
These all died in faith, not having received the things promised, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

So…in these verses we see that what God told and promised Abraham is more complex than just ‘you will have a son’.
God’s promise was that through Abraham and his son, all the world would be blessed. Indeed, Galatians 3 tells us that the gospel itself was preached to Abraham. But how does scripture tell us that ‘the gospel’ was given? “In you shall all the nations be blessed”.
How does that make sense? It makes plenty when you read this:

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

If we understand that the ultimate promise to Abraham was that through his seed, Christ would come and save the world, then we recognize that every time Abraham obeyed God in faith, he was trusting in that final seed…in Jesus.

.

Abraham believed in the same Jesus we believe in, but the promise given, it wasn't about redemption from sin, or a coming Savior/sacrifice. We'll see more about that later on Mount Moriah, but not yet.

It wasn't faith in a promise of a coming Messiah that saved Abraham, according to the text, it was when Abraham believed in God as God was making promises of descendants.

Many I hear preach that Abraham was saved by "looking forward to the coming Messiah", but that's not in the passage, something else is. It's not about the children. Its about Abraham believing in this Being Who is visiting him, and promising Him.

Much love!

Well…I trust you can see in the above passages that if we are to trust in what the NT tells us about Abraham, about the sort of faith he had, and indeed…the meanings behind the promises given to him…that those promises mean more than just ‘you will have a child’.
Yes…of course Abraham had faith in the God who spoke to him, visited him even. But…don’t we find it just a little interesting that Paul tells us that the gospel was preached in advance to him, preached to saying ‘in you all nations will be blessed’….and the very person who gave him the news he would have a son, was the pre-incarnate Christ himself..?

 

[No Pre-TB]

There's the difference between me and many here. For me, this is 7000.

Let me ask you . . . if there were an actual 7,000 person death toll from the quake, What would God have to say to you so you'd believe that? Just wondering . . . but this is why we come to different conclusions I think.

Much love!

Marks, the Rev 11 statement is in the spirit. Do you consider everything in the spirit to be literal?

 

[Naomi25]

My view is determined by the wording of the sheep/goats judgment. You seem to feel the wording shouldn't be accepted at face value because of your view. Is that fair to say?

Much love!

Okay. Let me give you another example that makes it really…really hard to take each text ‘at face value’….rather than looking at the preponderance of all the texts and building an understanding from them.

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Should we take this text at face value? Can we do that in light of other texts?

Romans 4:2-3
For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”

Romans 3:20
For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Romans 3:28
For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.


How then, can James 2 say that Abraham was justified by works? Is it not a direct contradiction?
Not if we take into consideration James…:


James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

And then…if we look further at the first verse, which seemingly suggested Abraham was justified by works, we see James complete his thought:


James 2:21-22
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;


When Ephesians tells us:

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


We should understand that good works are a part of our Christian walk. They affirm in us the faith that saved us. But works alone will never save.

So…when we weigh up all these texts and what they are telling us, how then are we to look at Matt 25 and conclude that all this will suddenly change and works are what will save us? Doesn’t the NT tell us that works CANNOT save us…because then we will have something to boast in in regards to our salvation?
Are you realising that by assuming the people in Matt 25 will be saved by works, then you are assigning this ability to boast to them? I don’t think that is understanding scripture clearly or God’s clear intent on what will gift salvation to people.

 

[marks]

Marks, the Rev 11 statement is in the spirit. Do you consider everything in the spirit to be literal?

Which statement doesn't mean what it says? Is that what you are saying?

Much love!

 

[marks]

James 2:21
Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

Should we take this text at face value? Can we do that in light of other texts?

Justified to God, or justified to men? God already knows those whom He has justified, right?

Much love!

 

[marks]

I just start out saying it's all true, and then find the way to understand what I read while letting it all remain true. I find two very distinct things. One is that all the passages harmonize together, and I don't need to "figure out" how this is true, while that is true", I don't end up with those kinds of questions. The other is that all disagreements seem to always come down to this. There is a verse I'm reading that someone else reads and tells me it means something different than what it says, "After all, it CAN'T really mean that!"

So . . . by what means do we find unity in the knowledge of Christ?

Much love!

 

[Naomi25]

Only in Psalm 104 are angels mentioned.

I'm matching creation to Psalm 104, the color coding to show the same things. So when in Psalm 104:4, where creating angels in mentioned, I see this being after the firmament is stretched out, before the foundations of the earth were laid, as Job tells us they were shouting for joy as they were laid. Therefore, angels created on day 2 or 3 of creation. It's a minor matter. Although maybe not to the angels!

Much love!

I…am having trouble with this.
Psalm 104…if it does mirror the creation story, still has the angels (V4) created BEFORE verse 5, in which the foundations of the earth are laid down.
Which…would mean trying to insert the creation of the angels at day 3 or 4 in the Genesis account is still untenable.
Wouldn’t you say?

 

[marks]

Okay. Let me give you another example that makes it really…really hard to take each text ‘at face value’….rather than looking at the preponderance of all the texts and building an understanding from them.

I DO take those texts at face value, but I recognize they aren't talking about exactly the same things.

We are justified by God, and He knows that, and He doesn't need any proof or evidence. He already knows whom has been born from Him.

But other people don't. "You show me your faith . . ." It's what others see. In James' letter, he saying that no one can "see" faith. But you can see works. "Show me . . ."

Much love!