The Pre-Trib Rapture

[Davy]

First, Who is “we”?

Surely you're not serious. Who was Christ giving His Revelation to? That's who the "we" is.

Secondly, when Christ returns, he sits on his throne (Matthew 25:31) when the kingdoms of earth becomes his. (Revelation 11:15) That is the 7th Trumpet. I find it extremely difficult to say that of the 7th seal.

Then you must also find it difficult to believe the 7th Vial also is the day of His Wrath upon the wicked, even though it specifically shows it is, just LIKE the latter part of the 6th Seal does also...

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

First off, since where is it is written that above event happens DURING the great tribulation time? That only happens on the "day of the Lord", the day of Jesus' future return. So even right there in the 6th SEAL, the timing being the last day of this world is set.

When you begin to realize that, then maybe we can continue our conversation.

 

[No Pre-TB]

Then you must also find it difficult to believe the 7th Vial also is the day of His Wrath upon the wicked, even though it specifically shows it is, just LIKE the latter part of the 6th Seal does also...

No, I do believe the vials are the out poured wrath of God because the text specifically says so In Rev 15:7

7Then one of the four living creatures gave the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God,

But the 6th seal doesn't show "out poured wrath". As a matter of fact, the 6th seal states once it is opened,

17For the great day of his wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

That means, the 6th seal isnt wrath, but opening it means his wrath is about to come. This is why the 144k are then sealed, BEFORE the wrath. The 6th seal and 7th vial are two completely different wraths. Thumos versus Orge. And each wrath has a different connotation and function. You suggesting they are one in the same really ought to look at each word used and how it applies to what subject.

First off, since where is it is written that above event happens DURING the great tribulation time? That only happens on the "day of the Lord", the day of Jesus' future return. So even right there in the 6th SEAL, the timing being the last day of this world is set.

If the last day happens at the 6th seal, you have to answer:
1. How is it the last day if the trumpets still need to sound?
2. How is it the last day if the heavens and earth havent been fully removed?
3. How is it the last day if the resurrection hasnt taken place?
*Esther is an extremely good source for this!

 

[ewq1938]

Most of Christ's Revelation was shown to Apostle John by vision, so that idea cannot be used to try and move the timing of the events shown by what is to happen... in those events.

John's visions were just that, by his eyesight vision because he was actually there to see events happen. The seals however were not live events happening but things that would happen in the future. In the 6th seal he saw the second coming from the perspective of the unsaved but that event didn't happen when the seal was opened.

And within that 6th Seal event, we are shown the time of Christ's coming with the event of His cup of WRATH being poured out. We are even shown how those wicked will then see The Father on His Throne in Heaven! So cannot mistake what timing that is. Do you remember John said this...

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
KJV

That is what the 6th Seal (latter part) is showing the wicked are doing, wailing because of His coming.

All correct except none of those events happen at the timeframe of the seal being opened.

What Christ's Revelation actually reveals is that His coming is on the 7th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial (777).

Nope. That isn't even possible given that the 7th seal is opened before any angels even has a trumpet. And all trumps sound before any vial pours. Jesus returns before the 1st vial is poured. The whole 777 thing is unscriptural.

And Satan as the false-Messiah will come on the 6th Seal (1st part), 6th Trumpet, and 6th Vial (666). That is grasped by understanding the event types on each Sign.

Obviously also wrong. Did you forget what you just said? "And within that 6th Seal event, we are shown the time of Christ's coming with the event of His cup of WRATH being poured out."

How can the 6th seal being the coming of the false messiah and the real Messiah but also have the real Messiah come at the 7th seal?? That doesn't make sense because the 666 idea is unscriptural.

 

[Timtofly]

He wrongly thinks the second coming happens when that seal is opened.

Jesus is going to be physically on the earth. Most think God is not personally involved in His judgment on earth.

Jesus came along with 2 angels prior to Sodom's destruction. He did not rapture Lot out after the destruction was over. He did not come and talk to Abraham after the destruction was over. Why does any one not see God is actually front and center and Christ as Prince is physically on the earth during the Trumpets and Thunders?

If this time is compared to Lot and Sodom, none of you all's claims line up with the actual event in Genesis. You all have God coming post the destruction of Sodom, and that is logically and physically impossible. Lot and his family would have been dead at that point. Or it would say, their house was the only one standing, and they endured till the end. Because many here paint the same picture about the church at the Second Coming. Church buildings will not be destroyed, but some will endure to the end and be sitting there waiting for Jesus to set up His kingdom, after every one else is dead.

Or God comes after the Flood and tells Noah to build an ark, and then Noah goes back in time to save the animals, because Noah endured through the Flood, so he could build an ark and then go back in time to save every one else.

 

[Taken]

When you actually start putting two and two together you will see when the rapture takes place... No need to invent another group of believers (Tribulation saints) as so many pretribbers have to do.

There is no mans “invention” of Tribulation saints.
There is no need to “invent” an accusation for a situation that DOES NOT EXIST.

There IS understanding of the difference between an expectation of Tribulation;
amongst men UPON Earth from generation to generation
and
Great Tribulation from God Sent down from Heaven upon the Earth that effects men UPON the Earth.

During generational tribulations amongst men;
And
During Gods Great Tribulation;
~ Men UPON the Earth, alive in their flesh;
~ Are exercising their their FREEWILL to Choose to Be INCLUDED in Gods Offering of Becoming saints....or rejecting the offer.

There is NO “mans invention” of “another group”...
There IS Division amongst men, THAT God Himself “established”.
....(Between Israel and Gentiles)
There IS Division amongst men, THAT Jesus Himself “established”.
....(Between Jews and Jews)
There IS INCLUSION amongst men, THAT God Himself “established”.
....(Between Jews and Gentiles)
There IS INCLUSION amongst men, THAT Jesus Himself “established”.
....(Between Jews and Gentiles)

** Israel, Jew, Gentile....all have FREEWILL to BE, REMAIN, BECOME INCLUDED “WITH” the Lord God.....or REJECT INCLUSION “WITH” the Lord God.
** Every INDIVIDUAL MAKES his own FREEWILL Choice WHILE ALIVE in his own Natural Flesh body.
** Every INDIVIDUAL WHO makes his own Freewill Choice to BE “WITH” the Lord God.......is the SAME who BECOMES....”A SAINT”.
** SOME MEN chose to Become “made” a “saint”...
BEFORE the Great Tribulation of God Begins.
** SOME MEN shall choose to Become “made” a “saint”...
DURING the Great Tribulation of God.
^^^ Those men who choose to Become “made” a “saint” DURING Gods Great Tribulation, ARE identified AS “Tribulation saints”.
^^^ THAT is not an “invention” of anyone.
^^^ THAT is simply an express notice of WHEN certain men Become ‘saints’.


2 Sam 3:
[18] Now then do it: for the LORD hath spoken of David, saying, By the hand of my servant David I will save my people Israel out of the hand of the Philistines, and out of the hand of all their enemies.

Luke 12:
[51] Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
John.7
[43] So there was a division among the people because of him.
John.10
[19] There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

Isa 42:
[6] I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Luke 2
[32] A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.

 

[Taken]

Jesus is going to be physically on the earth. Most think God is not personally involved in His judgment on earth.

The Son of man, came down from Heaven TO Earth, revealed He is the LAMB of God, the Holy one, with authority to SAVE the souls of men and QUICKEN the spirits of men, revealed His Power, ie He is the Christ, returned to Heaven. The Son of man (with Power), shall return to Earth.

No, the Son of man IS NOT ON the Earth during the Beginning of the Great Tribulation.
The LAMB of God, IN Heaven, Opens the Book of Seals, one by one.
Each seal that is Opened releases Increased Power given to Satan Over the Earth and the Earths inhabitants, to control, to oppress, to capture, to destroy.

Of course that is Gods involvement IN Judgement upon the Earth.
He is sitting IN Heaven Observing what He is Allowing to Occur.

because Noah endured through the Flood, so he could build an ark and then go back in time to save every one else.

No, Noah did not endure “THROUGH” the flood.
No one going “THROUGH” the flood survived.

Noah was IN the Ark SEVEN DAYS, BEFORE the rain BEGAN.
Noah was LIFTED UP above the face of the waters.
Noah was LIFTED UP SO HIGH, he was in the clouds, above the mountain peaks.

Gen 7:
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

^ That was Gods FIRST Great Tribulation. And a SECOND and LAST Great Tribulation of God, is Coming.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 6:
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

^ Nothing new. What was shall be again.
* Saved men LIFTED UP off the face of the earth, TO THE CLOUDS.
* God IN Heaven Orchestrating Destruction UPON the face of the Earth.
* Seven YEARS of Destruction UPON the face of the Earth.
* Gods Punishment UPON ISRAEL for Rejecting whom God Promised and Delivered to ISRAEL; ie Christ Jesus.
* Gods Promise to CALL ISRAEL OUT and Deliver ISRAEL OUT of the Corruption and Destruction UPON the Earth.
* Gods Promise to SEPARATE the DIVIDED, who are WITH Him, from those who are WITHOUT Him.

Rev 18:
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Luke 11:
[23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Know what WAS, to Know what SHALL BE again.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Not to argue or set you up for failure, but in all sincerity, why do you think the resurrection will happen at or near the 7th seal? What verses speak to you that it is at that moment?

Post # 1165 reveals the background surrounding the First Great Tribulation of God.

Who, what, when, why, where....regarding Gods First Great Tribulation.

Matt 24: reveals ANOTHER expectation of “great tribulation”.

Matt 24:
[21] For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Rom 1: Gods WRATH is Revealed From God, From Heaven AGAINST all ungodliness and all unrighteousness of men. (And we already know, Earth is the habit of men...and Gods WRATH is the response of Gods ANGER of ungodly men and unrighteousness men who ARE AGAINST God.)

Rom 1:
[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

 

[Taken]

Surely you're not serious. Who was Christ giving His Revelation to? That's who the "we" is.

Who is “We” is a valid question.
Christ Jesus “gave” His Word/Revealing for “ALL” men to hear.
Yet not “ALL” men Choose to Hear, or Choose to Accept what they Heard.

 

[Taken]

First off, since where is it is written that above event happens DURING the great tribulation time? That only happens on the "day of the Lord", the day of Jesus' future return. So even right there in the 6th SEAL, the timing being the last day of this world is set.
.

“The Day of the Lord”....is not confined to a mans understanding of a SINGLE DAY.

“The Day of the Lord”....was FORETOLD in the OT, which established an expectation and nearness of revealing something special.

“The Day of the Lord”....in the NT, revealed the Day He arrived From Heaven to ON Earth.

“The Day of the Lord”....in the NT, revealed the Day He was the Holy one, the Power of God (ie the Christ), the Savior of mens souls, the Quickener of mens spirits.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, revealed the DAY He returned from Earth to Heaven.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, reveals the DAY He sits IN Heaven Sending DOWN to Earth His WRATH upon the Unrighteous men.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, reveals the DAY of His Visitation.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, reveals the DAY of His Deliverance From His Anger, Wrath, Destruction.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, reveals the DAY of His Earthy Kingdom, exclusively the boundaries of His Kingdom being the Lands of His Inheritance, as was promised to Abraham’s descendants.

“The Day of the Lord”...in the NT, reveals the DAY of His Entire World-S Wide Kingdom, (Heaven and Earth) and WHO shall be the Occupants of those Kingdoms conjoined, One Kingdom.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

Not to argue or set you up for failure, but in all sincerity, why do you think the resurrection will happen at or near the 7th seal? What verses speak to you that it is at that moment?

Specifically, the harpadzo of those who are "in Christ".

Once you rule out everything else, one thing remains. And there is nothing that rules it out, it remains supported throughout, in so many ways.

However, agreement over rapture timing will never be reached when one person holds to the "wooden" meaning of a text, and does not, but finds ways to interpret the words differently, often in ways completely contrary to the plain reading, or in ways that fully deny the plain reading, in supplanting it with their reinterpretation.

Soteriology and eccleciology and Isrealology will all have to be settled and agreed upon before you can reach agreement over rapture timing.

But another way to say this is, we have to first agree to hold to the presented meaning of a passage, what it has to say for itself, not including, "But it can't mean THAT, because of this other passage!" And then go on to posit what it must REALLY mean. Whenever you find passages like that, it means you aren't understanding something correctly, because God's Word does not contradict itself, there is no "tension" between passages, only misunderstandings. When you find that your understanding is in complete harmony with all the rest of the Bible, rest in that, and when you find any apparent disharmony, grow from that.

Anyway, that's how I read the Bible.

Any time I find a passage that in any way challenges my current views, I let my views be challenged, it always leads to growth.

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. And whomever the Son sets free is free indeed!

Much love!

 

[Timtofly]

The Son of man, came down from Heaven TO Earth, revealed He is the LAMB of God, the Holy one, with authority to SAVE the souls of men and QUICKEN the spirits of men, revealed His Power, ie He is the Christ, returned to Heaven. The Son of man (with Power), shall return to Earth.

No, the Son of man IS NOT ON the Earth during the Beginning of the Great Tribulation.
The LAMB of God, IN Heaven, Opens the Book of Seals, one by one.
Each seal that is Opened releases Increased Power given to Satan Over the Earth and the Earths inhabitants, to control, to oppress, to capture, to destroy.

Of course that is Gods involvement IN Judgement upon the Earth.
He is sitting IN Heaven Observing what He is Allowing to Occur.



No, Noah did not endure “THROUGH” the flood.
No one going “THROUGH” the flood survived.

Noah was IN the Ark SEVEN DAYS, BEFORE the rain BEGAN.
Noah was LIFTED UP above the face of the waters.
Noah was LIFTED UP SO HIGH, he was in the clouds, above the mountain peaks.

Gen 7:
[1] And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
[4] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth.

Gen 7
[18] And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters.
[19] And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered.
[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Gen 7
[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

^ That was Gods FIRST Great Tribulation. And a SECOND and LAST Great Tribulation of God, is Coming.

Ecc 1:
[9] The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun.

Gen 6:
[13] And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

^ Nothing new. What was shall be again.
* Saved men LIFTED UP off the face of the earth, TO THE CLOUDS.
* God IN Heaven Orchestrating Destruction UPON the face of the Earth.
* Seven YEARS of Destruction UPON the face of the Earth.
* Gods Punishment UPON ISRAEL for Rejecting whom God Promised and Delivered to ISRAEL; ie Christ Jesus.
* Gods Promise to CALL ISRAEL OUT and Deliver ISRAEL OUT of the Corruption and Destruction UPON the Earth.
* Gods Promise to SEPARATE the DIVIDED, who are WITH Him, from those who are WITHOUT Him.

Rev 18:
[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Luke 11:
[23] He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.

Know what WAS, to Know what SHALL BE again.

Glory to God,
Taken

Well at the Second Coming, all will know the Seals were opened. And not as how every one had imagined.

God stood in the fire with the 3 Hebrews. The only difference, and my point about the Flood is that God is present, but the church is not.

The point about being prepared is not about enduring God's judgment. It is being prepared to not go through God's Judgments. This period is about the greatest tribulation ever, because all of Adam's flesh and blood will physically die. God does not send a Flood. God does not send fire. God brings the fire with Him.

 

[Taken]

Any time I find a passage that in any way challenges my current views, I let my views be challenged, it always leads to growth.

And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. And whomever the Son sets free is free indeed!

Much love!

Excellent!
That bears repeating and emphasis...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Soteriology and eccleciology and Isrealology will all have to be settled and agreed upon before you can reach agreement over rapture timing.

Kinda like this, eh?:



GRACE And Peace...

 

[Davy]

Kinda like this, eh?:

View attachment 20970

GRACE And Peace...

That graphic of course is false, because it is proposing Christ has THREE COMINGS. The idea of the rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation" IS A FALSE COMING OF CHRIST.

Jesus ONLY comes TWICE, the 1st time to die on the cross; the 2nd time on the LAST DAY of this world when His cup of WRATH falls upon the wicked, that day called "the day of the Lord". Jesus' coming on that last day of this world will be "as a thief", like He said.

 

[Enoch111]

Jesus ONLY comes TWICE, the 1st time to die on the cross; the 2nd time on the LAST DAY of this world when His cup of WRATH falls upon the wicked, that day called "the day of the Lord". Jesus' coming on that last day of this world will be "as a thief", like He said.

Jesus comes "as a thief" when He comes at the Resurrection/Rapture. Just as a thief comes unannounced and unexpected, that is how Christ comes FOR His saints. Just as Enoch was raptured suddenly one day. He certainly did not expect it, and God certainly did not announce it.

The truth of the matter is that you failed to mention that when Christ comes "in the air" it is momentarily and definitely not to the earth. So that does not negate His Second Coming TO EARTH with all His saints and angels.

 

[Taken]

That graphic of course is false, because it is proposing Christ has THREE COMINGS. The idea of the rapture of the Church prior to the "great tribulation" IS A FALSE COMING OF CHRIST.

Jesus ONLY comes TWICE, the 1st time to die on the cross; the 2nd time on the LAST DAY of this world when His cup of WRATH falls upon the wicked, that day called "the day of the Lord". Jesus' coming on that last day of this world will be "as a thief", like He said.

PAY ATTENTION...
God has many NAMES, TITLES, DESCRIPTIONS.

For the sake of Understanding....
MEN have many names, titles, descriptions.
It is WHAT a man is called at any given TIME, that reveals his POSITION.
....
Calling a man, husband, honey, sweetheart...indicates his POSITION.
Calling a man, neighbor, friend, George, .......indicates his POSITION.
Calling a man, Employer, Boss, ....................indicates his POSITION.
Calling a man, CEO, Owner,..........................indicates his POSITION.
Calling a man, parent, dad,..........................indicates his POSITION.
Calling a man, rival, enemy,.........................indicates his POSITION.

PAY ATTENTION...
WHAT God IS CALLED..................................indicates His POSITION.
Gods THRONE IS High Heaven....
God OCCUPIES His THRONE, His ESTATE.
God SEES ALL of HIS Creation.
Men ON Earth can SEE EARTH, Mans Estate.
Men ON Earth can SEE lower Heaven.

God SENT forth OUT of HIS MOUTH, His Word, in a BODY, God prepared in the LIKENESS AS A MAN, for men on Earth, to Hear AND SEE.
God SAID.....................CALL Him......Jesus, Son of man.
God SAID.....................He “shall be” called, the Son of God.

KEEP paying ATTENTION to ALL the names, titles, descriptions....GODS WORD in the LIKENESS as a man.......SHALL BE CALLED, WAS CALLED, IS CALLED....at WHAT specific TIMES...WHY...and called BY WHOM.

The Son of man came to Earth.
The Son of man was called Jesus, son of Mary.
The Son of man was called Jesus, son of Joseph.
Joseph was a man OF the House of David.
By Jesus, Being the Son of Joseph, that made Jesus also of the House of David.
By Jesus, Being of the House of David, Jesus IS Lawfully Entitled to SIT in the THRONE of King David, of the House of David.
David was given (BY God), an Everlasting Throne, for David to sit as King.
David sat on that Throne, and upon Davids Death, the Throne was no longer occupied by David.
JESUS.........was revealed IS The LAMB of God.
The LAMB of God.....was Revealed IS the Savior of mankind.
JESUS.........was revealed IS the Lord.
The Lord......was revealed IS the Holy One, the Sinless One, the Teacher, the Truth, the Life, the Way.
The Son of man.....JESUS....it was REVEALED WHILE Jesus was ON Earth, He is the Christ Messiah, Gods Manifested Promise to men.
The Son of man.....JESUS....it was Revealed He would BE called...The Son of God.
The Christ.....was revealed IS the POWER of God.
The Christ.....was revealed IS the WISDOM of God.
The Christ.....was revealed IS the SEED of God.
The Chirst.....was revealed IS the QUICKENING SPIRIT of God.

Getting the PICTURE?
The Son of man, was SENT to Earth, FROM Heaven, without His power.
The Son of man, Returned FROM Earth, To Heaven, with His power revealed.
The Son of man, ‘SHALL’ (future) return TO Earth, with His power.

AFTER the Son of man’s (now knowing and being CALLED the Son of God)...RETURNED to Heaven......The POWER (Christ) of God, WAS and IS sent down from Heaven, TO DWELL “WITH”.... any man “whom at such time” any man “IS BELIEVING” in God.
A man believes in God....Gods Spirit is WITH that man.
THAT man ^ is called IN Faith, a BELIEVER.
The same man stops believing in God....Gods Spirit LEAVES that man.
THAT man ^ is called Fallen FROM Faith, an Unbeliever.

A man DESIRES that Gods Spirit BE WITH that man FOREVER....
The WAY according to Gods WORD, is by a mans “true Heartful confession of Belief IN God”.......AND BY Gods Works......God GIVES THAT individual his Hearts desire. Thereafter.....FOREVER, God SHALL be WITH that man, and that man WITH God....KEPT, BY Gods POWER dwelling, WITH and IN that man.
THAT man ^ is called CONVERTED IN Christ, Sav-ED, Quicken-ED, Faith-FULL, Christ’s Church, Prepar-ED to Serve God as a FAITHFULL SERVANT, and, Prepar-ED Bride of Christ....in Waiting to be REDEEMED...

It is the Lord, WHO “redeems” that which WAS/IS authorized, Expressly for HIM to “redeem”, TAKE, HAVE, POSSESS.

BEFORE the Lamb of God, IN Heaven, OPENS the SEALS, It is the Lord WHO descends from Heaven TO the Clouds of the lower Heavens.
It is the Lords “holy servant”, an archangel, who CALLS UP the men IN Christ, to meet their Lord in the air.
IS THAT the Lord or the Son of man?
IS the Clouds of the lower Heavens or the Earth?
Are the men IN Christ, the Converted or believer that CAN fall from faith, or unbelievers?

It is the Lamb IN Heaven, that returns to Earth (specifically MT ZION) during the Tribulation, WITH 144,000 Virgin men, reserved from Gods 12 established Tribes of Israel.

It is the Son of man, in Heaven, that returns to descends to the Clouds, seen by all, after the Lamb’s, opening of the seals, after the 6 Trumps, and the effects thereof, during the Tribulation, immediately followed by the 7th Trump.

Following the 7th Trump, The Angels of God pours out the VIALS, one by one.
After the 7 Vials poured out, the Lamb WARS with the fallen angels. The fallen angels are sequestered in hell, for 1,000 years.

The Son of man, of the House of David, returns WITH His saints, assumes His Position of King, sitting in King David’s everlasting throne, in the City of Jerusalem, and the Kingdom of Land promised to Abraham and his faithful heirs, Son of God, Jesus the Lord, Christ the Power Rules His Kingdom, for 1,000 years, as a remnant of mortal men, repopulate the earth, establishing communities, cities, nations, for the same 1,000 years.

So far...
DID the Lord come down from Heaven to the Clouds? Yes.
DID the Lamb of God come down from Heaven to Mt. Zion? Yes.
DID the Son of man come down from Heaven with Clouds and was Seen IN the Clouds by all men? Yes
TO THIS POINT, WAS ANY man raised UP? Yes, expressly those IN Christ.

KEEP in Context and you will have the TRUTH and avoid confusion.

How many times did the Son of man RETURN? Once.

 

[Timtofly]

Jesus comes "as a thief" when He comes at the Resurrection/Rapture. Just as a thief comes unannounced and unexpected, that is how Christ comes FOR His saints. Just as Enoch was raptured suddenly one day. He certainly did not expect it, and God certainly did not announce it.

The truth of the matter is that you failed to mention that when Christ comes "in the air" it is momentarily and definitely not to the earth. So that does not negate His Second Coming TO EARTH with all His saints and angels.

I think the point should be Jesus comes as a thief, but stays on the earth as a Prince.

The church remains in Paradise with the Lord.

 

[ewq1938]

Jesus comes "as a thief" when He comes at the Resurrection/Rapture. Just as a thief comes unannounced and unexpected, that is how Christ comes FOR His saints. J

That's not what the bible says:

1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.


He comes as a surprising, unannounced thief to the unsaved but NOT TO THE SAVED. For the saved, his return is announced and LOUD:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together (THE RAPTURE) with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Extremely noisy, very announced, very expected!

 

[Enoch111]

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

You have tried to equate Christ with the day of the LORD and as you know that is absurd. The metaphor of "a thief in the night" is used differently for two different things.

 

[ewq1938]

You have tried to equate Christ with the day of the LORD and as you know that is absurd. The metaphor of "a thief in the night" is used differently for two different things.

The day of the Lord Paul is speaking about is the day he returns.

Either way, Paul is clear Christ does not come as a thief to Christians.