The Problem With The Trinity

[justbyfaith]

No, you don't know the truth. What you know is based on faulty translations, additions to the text and reading the Son into various texts so that he becomes our Creator rather than his Father YHWH who created everything all by Himself via speaking everything into existence with His own words.

Also, my salvation is not based on believing Yeshua is God. It is based on believing he is the SON OF GOD (John 3:16; 1 John 5:5, etc.). "God" is Yeshua's Father.

There is no doubt in my mind that I know the truth concerning who Jesus Christ is (that He is God)...I take it you deny the veracity of Ephesians 3:9 (kjv)...since in Isaiah 44:24 (kjv) it says that Jehovah God made the heavens and the earth by Himself and all alone...how is it that He made all things through Jesus Christ?

 

[justbyfaith]

Scripture does not say what you interpret it to say. That is your personal, erroneous interpretation of John 8:24 by taking Yeshua's words out of context and adding in your own words.

wishful thinking.

 

[Helen]

Dave, if you still can't reply to the post is it an act or a condition ok
talk to gadar, and i'll go away, and everyone's happy

If you went away I would never be "happy".

 

[Helen]

Right...however we know from scripture that if someone denies that Jesus is the great I AM, they will die in their sins (John 8:24)...so scripture makes the call for us and determines that the Deity of Christ is essential doctrine as pertains to our salvation.

I see nowhere where it says we must believe that Jesus is the great I AM and that saves us!!

Your verse says " I am He.." I am He what?
The Open Door... The perfect last Lamb sacrifice...
Our salvation does not hang on whether Jesus is God or not...it hangs on His BLOOD shed which took the judgement that was upon the world.
You are 'adding to' the word here....

 

[gadar perets]

There is no doubt in my mind that I know the truth concerning who Jesus Christ is (that He is God)...I take it you deny the veracity of Ephesians 3:9 (kjv)...since in Isaiah 44:24 (kjv) it says that Jehovah God made the heavens and the earth by Himself and all alone...how is it that He made all things through Jesus Christ?

Here is Adam Clarke's commentary on the end of Ephesians 3:9;

But the words δια Ιησου Χριστου, by Jesus Christ, are wanting in ABCD*FG, and several others; also in the Syriac, Arabic of Erpen, Coptic, Ethiopic, Vulgate, and Itala; as also in several of the fathers. Griesbach has thrown the words out of the text; and Professor White says, “certissime delenda,” they are indisputably spurious. The text, therefore, should be read: which from the beginning of the world had been hidden in God who created all things. No inferiority of Christ can be argued from a clause of whose spuriousness there is the strongest evidence.
​

 

[farouk]

I see nowhere where it says we must believe that Jesus is the great I AM and that saves us!!

Your verse says " I am He.." I am He what?
The Open Door... The perfect last Lamb sacrifice...
Our salvation does not hang on whether Jesus is God or not...it hangs on His BLOOD shed which took the judgement that was upon the world.
You are 'adding to' the word here....

I think we should remember well that the Lord Jesus' glory 'is as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth' ,John 1.14.

Hebrews 1.7 says: Unto the Son, He saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom'. He it was, believers can say, Who 'by Himself purged our sins', Hebrews 1.3.

 

[Helen]

I think we should remember well that the Lord Jesus' glory 'is as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth' ,John 1.14.

Hebrews 1 says: Unto the Son, He saith, Thy throne O God, is for ever and ever; a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of Thy kingdom'. He it was, believers can say, Who 'by Himself purged our sins'.

All very true...but the 'argument/discussion' is, whether it makes a difference in our initial salvation...it does NOT. What you quote is fact , but nowhere is there a verse saying " If you don't believe this, or if you don't believe the trinity. Or is you don't believe Jesus was God...you are not saved.
Salvation is in the power of Jesus Christ to take away the sin of the world.
"Slain before the beginning of the world"

< @amadeus Can I loop you in here John ? >

My two cents...

 

[farouk]

All very true...but the 'argument/discussion' is, whether it makes a difference in our initial salvation...it does NOT. What you quote is fact , but nowhere is there a verse saying " If you don't believe this, or if you don't believe the trinity. Or is you don't believe Jesus was God...you are not saved.
Salvation is in the power of Jesus Christ to take away the sin of the world.
"Slain before the beginning of the world"

< @amadeus Can I loop you in here John ? >

My two cents...

"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2.12)

 

[Helen]

...and ?

 

[farouk]

I

...and ?

It's phrased as a solemn warning to those who do not do what the verses says.

 

[gadar perets]

"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2.12)

Although I do not believe the trinity doctrine, I reverence the Son and trust in him. I will not perish from the way. Just the opposite, I will receive everlasting life (John 3:16).

 

[farouk]

Although I do not believe the trinity doctrine, I reverence the Son and trust in him. I will not perish from the way. Just the opposite, I will receive everlasting life (John 3:16).

I don't understand how you can set aside the truth of God in Three Persons, seen clearly at the end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, John's First Epistle, and many other passages.

 

[Helen]

"Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him." (Psalm 2.12)

Perish = "lest ye are lost in respect to the way,"
Peter lost his way...he didn't lose his salvation...many lose their way and slip off the path... "blessed are all they who put their trust in Him...He knows the way...His way is not bumpy....

I see not argument here. It is still not speaking about eternal salvation....

 

[Helen]

Although I do not believe the trinity doctrine, I reverence the Son and trust in him. I will not perish from the way. Just the opposite, I will receive everlasting life (John 3:16).

Agree.
It amazes me how people "fight to the death" as it were, over a doctrine which is man made and the word trinity is not in the bible ..and more that the word rapture is.

I actually happen to 'see' the trinity as it is called...so I am "one of them" ...but two friends on this forum do not hold it...they are no less securely saved...nowhere is it stated that people who do not hold that doctrine go to hell. Total rubbish!!

I can't even remember how I got into this discussion!!

 

[gadar perets]

I don't understand how you can set aside the truth of God in Three Persons, seen clearly at the end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, John's First Epistle, and many other passages.

Here is an unbiased study of the issue of Matthew 28:19.

As for John 13-17, you will need to be more specific about what verses teach the trinity.

 

[farouk]

Here is an unbiased study of the issue of Matthew 28:19.

As for John 13-17, you will need to be more specific about what verses teach the trinity.

One of your sources is Christadelphian; another is James Martineau the Unitarian.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a very strong presence in John's Gospel. Romans 8 is another blessed chapter where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overtly present.

 

[justbyfaith]

I see nowhere where it says we must believe that Jesus is the great I AM and that saves us!!

Your verse says " I am He.." I am He what?
The Open Door... The perfect last Lamb sacrifice...
Our salvation does not hang on whether Jesus is God or not...it hangs on His BLOOD shed which took the judgement that was upon the world.
You are 'adding to' the word here....

Jesus said, Unless you believe that I AM (He is in italics) you will die in your sins...

Our salvation therefore hangs on whether we believe Jesus is God...

If the blood that was shed was not the blood of God (see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 (kjv)), then it was insufficient to save us.

 

[farouk]

Jesus said, Unless you believe that I AM (He is in italics) you will die in your sins...

Our salvation therefore hangs on whether we believe Jesus is God...

If the blood that was shed was not the blood of God (see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 (kjv)), then it was insufficient to save us.

Well, exactly.

 

[gadar perets]

One of your sources is Christadelphian; another is James Martineau the Unitarian.

As I said, it is an unbiased study. If all he quoted was trinitarians (and he quoted a lot of them), it would be totally bias.

Father, Son and Holy Spirit have a very strong presence in John's Gospel. Romans 8 is another blessed chapter where Father, Son and Holy Spirit are overtly present.

I am still waiting on the verses you referenced in John 13-17. Give me the relevant verses in Romans 8 as well. And please don't waste my time in the future by not quoting exactly what you are referring to.

 

[gadar perets]

Jesus said, Unless you believe that I AM (He is in italics) you will die in your sins...

The way you capitalized "AM" is very deceptive as is the way you took his words out of context.

If the blood that was shed was not the blood of God (see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 (kjv)), then it was insufficient to save us.

God does not have blood. He is a Spirit. Nor was God's "blood" required. Only the blood of an uncorrupted/sinless man was necessary.

As for Acts 20:28, some Greeks texts translate as "through the blood the own" and others translate as, "through the own blood". Since God does not have blood, I would say the Greek texts that translate as, ""through the blood the own" are correct and the others corrupted.