The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Bible Highlighter]

Once again......send me “ The Reader’s Digest” version of this if you ever get one.....

Most of what I say involves Scripture. Christians generally find it a joy to study His Word and to talk about it (even if it is from an opponent or enemy). Besides, I did not just post for your benefit alone. I post for others who are in search of the truth. So if you will not read my words involving Scripture, somebody else will. For one plants, the other waters, but it is God that gives the increase.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Something else that might come in handy—— Try to Understand What “ The Blind Leading the Blind” means.....

Jesus said:

“…they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.” (Matthew 15:14).

Still in context (of the same conversation), Jesus says:

“But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.” (Matthew 15:18-20).

Jesus says out of the heart proceeds evil thoughts, murders, thefts, blasphemies and He said these things defile a man.

In 1 Corinthians 3:17, Paul says:
“If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”

Jesus says,

“And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroyboth soul and body in hell.” (Matthew 10:28).

 

[BloodBought 1953]

In other words, if you admit you are a sinner (present tense), then you have not been chastised whereby you should have stopped sinning.


If you “ Don't” admit you are a Sinner you call God a Liar, and prove you have no understanding of what Sin is.....we’ll ignore the fact that a person that thinks that they are without sin is just plain dumb....you sin every hour of every day , be it in thought or deed ......I suppose that you never have an “ impure thought” do you ? And all the sins that you “ DO” commit are purely by “ accident”...... lol .... yeah, right.....

If God chose to Chastise us for every little sin we committed , we would be in His “Wood-Shed” almost 24/7.....He could do that and be completely justified for doing so...Thankfully, God Loves us and is not out to “ get us”.......The only Reason that he ever Chastises “ Anybody” is to do it to help and train them and protect us just as we do our Children....

Your entire line of thought is just plain silly....we will not be “ perfect” until we get rid of these Flesh Bodies.....God ain’t gonna beat us up until that day comes....he could, but he doesn’t ....thank Him for His Grace...if all of us got the Chastisement that we had coming to us every day, we would be in Hell at this very moment...a Humble man with a Contrite Heart knows that....a Blind man can’t see it...you are a Much worse Sinner than you think you are....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You raise some very interesting points about sins and consequences. Those who wish to disregard behaviour as part of our relationship with Christ want simply to make everything permissible. If I can pray for forgiveness for minor sins, and they be forgiven, then holding all sins are forgiven now and in the future wrong. Equally if transgressing is part of life, ie living with Christ away and distractions in the world here, it is always a battle, means sinless perfection is equally a desire as a goal, but a work in progress rather than an absolute assumption.

If one takes either of the extreme position, then you have to ignore scripture that clear deals with this progress in love and understanding with Jesus, and not a once done super wonder encounter that defines everything. The analogy to marriage is so close its staggering, in terms of love and the ups and downs along the way. The first encounter and potential is great but it does not define learning, changing and growing with each others strengths and weaknesses. It is ironic the Jonah regarded the Fathers forgiveness a weakness in dealing with Nineveh and was willing to risk his life to make this point. I find this hard to get my head around, the grace and even discussion with which the Lord is prepared to go. He is so humble, so quiet, so patient and kind, and wants to involve us. Love is so staggering, it does not measure rank or experience but desire inclusion and empowering others.

God bless you

The Bible has many warnings against how sin can destroy our soul. It warns us against being unfruitful or we will not enter the Kingdom of God. It warns us to live holy without which no man shall see the Lord. So I would rather be overly cautious in living for God and fighting against sin, then over emphasizing the love of God to a point that could lead one to justify sin under God’s grace. Believers have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). He that shall save his life shall lose it, and he that shall lose his life shall save it. Meaning, if we lose our life for Christ, we will be saved. This is why we need to pick up our cross, and deny ourselves and follow Jesus. Most today are simply not willing to do that. They want to be king, and have their desires and they don’t want Jesus to be Lord and or king of their life and follow His desires fully.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Most of what I say involves Scripture. Christians generally find it a joy to study His Word and to talk about it (even if it is from an opponent or enemy). Besides, I did not just post for your benefit alone. I post for others who are in search of the truth. So if you will not read my words involving Scripture, somebody else will. For one plants, the other waters, but it is God that gives the increase.

I could theoretically read your windy posts with joy, but when I know ahead of time that your interpretation of the Scriptures that you post always get Twisted Into some type of Religious Mush or Works Doctrine , I just don’t have the interest,as opposed to reading the posts ( even lengthy ones!) by those that know how to “ Rightly Divide “

Your Constant , Giant “ Scripture Walls” and your Bloviating just cause my eyes to kinda glaze over.....sorry, it can’t be helped......and you are convinced that “ others” read your stuff? I think that might be a “ pipe dream” that you hold on to.... people have their own Bibles.....they don’t need to see 90% of it replicated here every time that you post....

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If you “ Don't” admit you are a Sinner you call God a Liar, and prove you have no understanding of what Sin is.....we’ll ignore the fact that a person that thinks that they are without sin is just plain dumb....you sin every hour of every day , be it in thought or deed ......I suppose that you never have an “ impure thought” do you ? And all the sins that you “ DO” commit are purely by “ accident”...... lol .... yeah, right.....

If God chose to Chastise us for every little sin we committed , we would be in His “Wood-Shed” almost 24/7.....He could do that and be completely justified for doing so...Thankfully, God Loves us and is not out to “ get us”.......The only Reason that he ever Chastises “ Anybody” is to do it to help and train them and protect us just as we do our Children....

Your entire line of thought is just plain silly....we will not be “ perfect” until we get rid of these Flesh Bodies.....God ain’t gonna beat us up until that day comes....he could, but he doesn’t ....thank Him for His Grace...if all of us got the Chastisement that we had coming to us every day, we would be in Hell at this very moment...a Humble man with a Contrite Heart knows that....a Blind man can’t see it...you are a Much worse Sinner than you think you are....

1 John 1:8 is a warning to the brethren about the gnostic false belief that said, if we say we have no sin [if we do sin] we deceives ourselves, and the truth is not in us. So it’s a warning against how not do deny sin’s existence if we do happen to sin on rare occasion. John gives us the remedy of how to deal with sin if it does by some chance crops up in our life. He tells us to confess of our sins to be forgiven of our sin (1 John 1:9) instead of ignoring sin. OSAS ignores the proper way to deal with sin. Most OSAS Christians I encounter do not believe you have to confess of your sins to be forgiven of your sin (Note: To be forgiven of sin is dealing with salvation).

Now, faithful believers have sinned in their past life before coming to Christ. This is true.
Believers can on rare occasion stumble into sin but they are to confess and forsake those sins to have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (1 John 1:9) (1 John 1:7). 1 Peter 4:1-2 says that he that suffers in the flesh has ceased from sin, and that we should live the rest of our time not to the lusts of the flesh, but to the will of God. Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. 2 Corinthians 7:1 says let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 1 John 2:4 says that person who says they know the Lord and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

As for your point on chastisement: Well, it was a non-point actually. You really did not explain how your declaring your a sinner saved by God’s grace works somehow with your declaration that chastisement is to get a person to stop sinning. In your belief you can sin and still be saved by a belief alone in Jesus and so your bring up chastisement in that you think it helps a believer to stop sinning is not something that you really believe. In fact, in your belief, chastisement does not serve any purpose. You can just keep on sinning and ignore chastisement and be saved. So then chastisement by God does not really serve a purpose for you in your belief system. It’s just a sham.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I could theoretically read your windy posts with joy, but when I know ahead of time that your interpretation of the Scriptures that you post always get Twisted Into some type of Religious Mush or Works Doctrine , I just don’t have the interest,as opposed to reading the posts ( even lengthy ones!) by those that know how to “ Rightly Divide “

Your Constant , Giant “ Scripture Walls” and your Bloviating just cause my eyes to kinda glaze over.....sorry, it can’t be helped......and you are convinced that “ others” read your stuff? I think that might be a “ pipe dream” that you hold on to.... people have their own Bibles.....they don’t need to see 90% of it replicated here every time that you post....

Your eyes glaze over because you are resistant to the truth of what God’s Word really says. While many today can read their Bibles (and sometimes do so often and or many times), they don’t actually BELIEVE their bibles fully or entirely because they have allowed Protestant sayings or Theology to get in their way of believing the Bible plainly. Anyone who is a truth seeker will be able to see what I am showing them with God’s Word. If what you taught was true, you would provide Scripture verses to explain the verses I brought forth. But you simply don’t have that ability because your belief is untenable.

 

[Rudometkin]

Okay, thnx., we have a lot to be thankful for.

The older I get, the more I realize how much I have to be thankful for, and the more I realize how much I need Christ to save me because I am incapable. Which is a topic some people disagree on here...

I'm happy to hear you all are doing great. Thanks for reaching out.

 

[BloodBought 1953]

Your eyes glaze over because you are resistant to the truth of what God’s Word really says. While many today can read their Bibles (and sometimes do so often and or many times), they don’t actually BELIEVE their bibles fully or entirely because they have allowed Protestant sayings or Theology to get in their way of believing the Bible plainly. Anyone who is a truth seeker will be able to see what I am showing them with God’s Word. If what you taught was true, you would provide Scripture verses to explain the verses I brought forth. But you simply don’t have that ability because your belief is untenable.

I have provided many....you can’t and don’t refute them....
All I hear us crickets chirping....you can’t get past this one single verse—- it proves wrong everything you hold dear....why waste my time providing a bunch of excess and needless verses when I have you trumped going out the gate....

Address this one single verse, for once , and than we might continue....

John 5:24 “ He That BELIEVES in me, ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation” .....

 

[L.A.M.B.]

I would like to ask one question and have it addressed by one who believes in OSAS. Thnx.


What exactly is OSAS, how can you tie it together in context, proving scripture with scripture? [ ok compound ?]

Please do not cherry pick your scriptures but in context. Please do not give me in Christ finished work bc that only procured our one event of salvation, the gift of redemption of our past sins without God. Yes He will forgive any present or future sins we have when we repent, confess and turn away from them. I believe the scriptures plainly show how many times Israel backsid and went after other gods and how the Lords wrath fell on them.

If a person has zero fellowship with God then it is no longer a relationship !

If you DIE with no relationship and the wrath of God in your life you are no longer his. Please do not give me the very misquoted scripture of " they were never of us, if they departed from us". It doesn't wash ! Apostasy means not believing anymore, falling AWAY from God.
Opposite directions !

Ps, plz explain the big word IF that so many ignore !
If is a clause or condition to a contract of promissory intent.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have provided many....you can’t and don’t refute them....
All I hear us crickets chirping....you can’t get past this one single verse—- it proves wrong everything you hold dear....why waste my time providing a bunch of excess and needless verses when I have you trumped going out the gate....

Address this one single verse, for once , and than we might continue....

John 5:24 “ He That BELIEVES in me, ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation” .....

Jesus says,

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24).​

Lets highlight the verse to see what’s going on.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that hears my word, and believes on him that sent me, has everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24).​

In John 5:24: The EXB Translation explains that the word "hear" can mean to: "obey."; Meaning, we have to believe in God the Father (through Jesus), and obey Him to not perish. Acts of the Apostles 3:23 confirms this. It says that if anyone does not hear that prophet (JESUS), they shall be destroyed. Obviously if an unbeliever hears (listens) the words of Jesus in church and they reject them, they are not really hearing (obeying) the words of that prophet Jesus Christ. So to just listen to His words and not obey them like believing in Jesus for salvation will not save them. One has to act upon their faith in order to be saved. We also see this again in John 8:47. In John 8:47: Jesus says to the Jews that he that is of God hears God’s words, and that they (i.e. the Jews) did not hear (obey) God's words. Granted, the word “hearers” can mean listen like the one in James 1:22, but we know this by the context.

So it is possible that hear could be listen in this verse, and the word “believeth” or “believes” is in reference to: “obeying” God.

For example:

In John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)
​

The Greek word “apeitheō” is used in John 5:24 for the English word “believeth” or “believes.”

This same Greek word is used for obeying God and or believing in God in the Bible.

This is not a contradiction because everything in your Bible is a part of the faith or your trust (belief) in God.
For faith comes by hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17).
Meaning, all the instructions to obey God or His commands we have to trust and believe in by faith.
When Noah built the Ark, he did it by faith.

“By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7).

If Noah did not act upon his faith in God by building the Ark, he would have perished in the flood.

So John 5:24 could be saying:

(a) He that heareth [obeys] my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, (John 5:24). (or it could be saying):

(b) He that heareth [listens to] my word, and believeth on him [in the sense of trusting not only in the Father, but everything that the Father told Jesus to say including His instructions on obedience] that sent me, hath everlasting life (John 5:24).

Are you really believing on the Father if you reject His words that were given to Jesus?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I have provided many....you can’t and don’t refute them....
All I hear us crickets chirping....you can’t get past this one single verse—- it proves wrong everything you hold dear....why waste my time providing a bunch of excess and needless verses when I have you trumped going out the gate....

Address this one single verse, for once , and than we might continue....

John 5:24 “ He That BELIEVES in me, ALREADY HAS Eternal Life and shall NEVER come under Condemnation” .....

I will add this to my previous post to you that you may not read.

Jesus says,
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” (John 8:51).

In other words, Christians look at the whole counsel of God’s Word and not those verses they want to see from their own slanted perspective (Especially when it justifies wrong doing or evil). For that is what your belief does. It justifies sin under God’s grace because it teaches you can sin and still be saved. This is an oxymoron because God is good and He cannot agree or condone our sin.

 

[WalkInLight]

The Bible has many warnings against how sin can destroy our soul. It warns us against being unfruitful or we will not enter the Kingdom of God. It warns us to live holy without which no man shall see the Lord. So I would rather be overly cautious in living for God and fighting against sin, then over emphasizing the love of God to a point that could lead one to justify sin under God’s grace. Believers have to work out their salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). He that shall save his life shall lose it, and he that shall lose his life shall save it. Meaning, if we lose our life for Christ, we will be saved. This is why we need to pick up our cross, and deny ourselves and follow Jesus. Most today are simply not willing to do that. They want to be king, and have their desires and they don’t want Jesus to be Lord and or king of their life and follow His desires fully.

12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed--not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence--continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,
Phil 2:12

It is a good point, Paul is instructing people to obey, not just believe, or think everything will be fine as long as they have their faith sorted out, at some point in their lives.

Some teachers have gone so far as to say "fear" is sin, so "to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" would be sinful, except ofcourse in their mind all sin is forgiven so whatever they do it is not sinful, and there is no fear before God because everything is sorted...because they have believed Jesus.

I have wondered for a long time, if Jesus says my disciples will be known because they obey my commandments, they love one another, then to believe Jesus, the things He is saying and what He is doing, means to obey and follow, not just say "Jesus is Lord".

In one real sense passivity was never in Jesus's parables, His criticism of the pharisees, His involvement with the disciples, His vision for the Kingdom. The Kingdom was to be known for its good works, its attitude to others, its light of love in a dark place. If anything passivity is linked to the lazy servant who gained nothing, buried their talents and was judged as lost by the Lord.

God bless you

 

[Rudometkin]

The Lord just asks to let Him in

God does not wait on you to allow jack squat. Quit trying to put Him in a position where His hands are tied. You are nothing but the effect of His will.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

 

[WalkInLight]

God does not wait on you to allow jack squat. Quit trying to put Him in a position where His hands are tied. You are nothing but the effect of His will.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20

8 "Still other seed fell on good soil. It came up and yielded a crop, a hundred times more than was sown." When he said this, he called out, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear."
Luke 8:8

Jesus came to earth to exalt man up to His throne, so man can sit beside Him.
Gods nature is described like this

5 Then the LORD came down in the cloud and stood there with him and proclaimed his name, the LORD.
6 And he passed in front of Moses, proclaiming
"The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness,
7 maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation."
Exodus 34:5-7

The Lord declares His position and approach to mankind and all who seek Him.
The parable of the prodigal son, puts the Father looking out for the returning son, running out to greet him when he is seen.

This is the Lords revelation, and He waits for those who will hear,

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

"God does not wait on you to allow jack squat." - quote, but is this Gods revelation.

The nature of love is to be a servant, literally. Jesus washed His disciples feet to get this point over.
14 Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet.
15 I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you.
16 I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.
17 Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.
John 13:14-17

3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
4 Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 "And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me.
Matt 18:3-5

11 The greatest among you will be your servant.
12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
Matt 23:11-12

The Kingdom of heaven is a reverse pyramid structure where the servants support the whole.
These are not my ideas or proposition, but Jesus and His revelation. If one is ready to listen and read, you also will see.

God bless you

 

[WalkInLight]

God does not wait on you to allow jack squat. Quit trying to put Him in a position where His hands are tied. You are nothing but the effect of His will.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

I wonder after reading some of your other posts, do you not realise you have decided who and what God is before reading His own words and His own description of how He interacts with others.

To follow God means you follow a God who wrestled with Jacob

24 So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak.
25 When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob's hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man.
26 Then the man said, "Let me go, for it is daybreak." But Jacob replied, "I will not let you go unless you bless me."
Gen 32:24-26

This is such an odd passage unless the Lord is actually saying, I come alongside you as you are and interact at your level.
I wrestled with my son, it is innate in growing up for guys, as I have observed.

I am open to whatever the Lord lays on my heart and reveals to me through His word.
It is far more nuanced and involved than I ever realised.

People say the universe makes us feel small, with galaxies and vastness beyond our imagination.
But in all this vastness, God and love are way more significant, and outshine everything else.

God bless you

 

[Rudometkin]

20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
Rev 3:20

It is God who works in people to hear and accept Christ. God does not 'just ask people to let Him in'. He draws them to Christ, and Christ saves them. All work of God, not God begging men to please let Him in.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

 

[WalkInLight]

It is God who works in people to hear and accept Christ. God does not 'just ask people to let Him in'. He draws them to Christ, and Christ saves them. All work of God, not God begging men to please let Him in.

John 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Romans 9:16
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

There are different perspectives which are all true, but sound contradictatory.
Does a teacher make the pupil learn? Does an ox yoked to an older ox chose to copy what the old ox is doing?

So when you are talking about the Creator, everything we do is a gift and through His will, and by His choice.
But to say people believe, have faith, walk, declare allowed Jesus is Lord, repent, share love, abide, is also true
and part of who we are.

What is the sticking point is to admit both are needed for love to work.
If we were robots, preprogrammed to say and do what we are told, there would be no love and only obedience.
Clearly man is not a robot, and is given choice, whether the consequences are bad or good.
If there was no choice involved there would be no judgement or guilt, and no point in repenting, because you just
run the righteous program and you are good.

To bring free will message home, you choose to read and respond to this post, I do not force you, or the Lord force
you. What you write is your understanding of your faith and belief system, not someone elses.

Jesus underlined in all this influences and choice, still He initiates everything, "I chose you"
Judas demonstrates that Judas chose to reject and betray the Lord, which is the dark side of free will.

By the way Judas was described as being lost, not turned by Gods will to betray,

None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
John 17:12

God bless you

 

[L.A.M.B.]

God does not wait on you to allow jack squat. Quit trying to put Him in a position where His hands are tied. You are nothing but the effect of His will.

Daniel 4:35
All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, and he does according to his will among the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand or say to him, “What have you done?”

Daniel 4:32-36 is the full context.
It boggles my mind how so few ppl KNOW how to study the word of God. The word proves itself but ppl like this tear up and shed the scriptures in cutting it apart to suit their equation !



This was a interpretation of a dream to king Nebuchadnezzar, who thought he was GREATER than God, bc he was renowned.v.22. Daniel interpreted it through the Spirit of God.
Lucifer the most beautiful, shinning, singing angel in heaven was cast to the earth bc he too thought this, Isaiah 14:12 (cxt) 9-15.
Like a beast the king would become and claw @ the dirt and eat grass. God is the high and lifted one, Isaiah 6: 1/ 2 ( cxt ), and ppl better start believing this and return to Him or who knows what your fate may be !

The king of Babylon stated this verse 35 after HE REALIZED WHOM WAS THE GREATER, GOD OR MAN !