Rudometkin obviously has strong calvinistic leaning if not a full fledged believer in T. U. L. I .P.
The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.
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Rudometkin obviously has strong calvinistic leaning if not a full fledged believer in T. U. L. I .P.
@Rudometkin Yes, it needs to be all of grace rather than by supposed human cooperative merit. John 6 would indeed seem to bear this out.
Rudometkin
Active Member
You just took the position of God choosing everything we do and then you attacked your own position by comparing us to robots.
You refute yourself. This is why I do not engage with many people anymore.
For if we willfully sin after we receive the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin (Hebrews 10:26).
Please see my New Thread....”Yeah, you are a Willful Sinner”...
Please see my New Thread....”Yeah, you are a Willful Sinner”...
It must be exhausting to complicate what God has made so simple—— Kudos to your ENERGY !
So, saying “ Jesus is Lord” won’t get the job of Salvation done? That would make Paul, who of course , was speaking for Jesus, a LIAR......you either have a Ton of Nerve or a Ton Of Ignorance......my money is in the latter.....
“ If you confess with our mouth that * JESUS IS LORD * and Believe in your Heart that God Raised Him from the Dead, you WILL BE SAVED”. Romans 10:9
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In other words, if you admit you are a sinner (present tense), then you have not been chastised whereby you should have stopped sinning.
Remember the Saved Believer who had sex with his step- mother? He got Chastised for this terrible sin by being thrown out of the church .....he learned his lesson because of this Chastisement....There is a pretty good chance that because of the pain he had to endure because of this one particular sin that was being dealt with , that he never committed that one specific sin again...
Do you think that guy became PeRFECT afterwards because of his punishment for one particular sin?
When your children do something wrong and you Chastise them for it , do they never do wrong again ?
Your thinking is so obviously stupid, I don’t know why I even answered....just what the hell is the matter with you?
Remember the Saved Believer who had sex with his step- mother? He got Chastised for this terrible sin by being thrown out of the church .....he learned his lesson because of this Chastisement....There is a pretty good chance that because of the pain he had to endure because of this one particular sin that was being dealt with , that he never committed that one specific sin again...
Do you think that guy became PeRFECT afterwards because of his punishment for one particular sin?
When your children do something wrong and you Chastise them for it , do they never do wrong again ?
Your thinking is so obviously stupid, I don’t know why I even answered....just what the hell is the matter with you?
In fact, in your belief, chastisement does not serve any purpose. You can just keep on sinning and ignore chastisement and be saved. So then chastisement by God does not really serve a purpose for you in your belief system. It’s just a sham.
God will NOT be Mocked.....He will not allow His name to be Disgraced before an on- looking world....
We are not robots....we have the freedom to ignore God’s warnings and Chastisements .....and God has the Freedom and the power and the right to make you drop dead in your tracks—- YEARS before your time! Your Salvation will still be intact because it was a GIFT , and the “ Gifts Of God Are Without Recall”.......You will be Saved alright, but you are going to lose a Ton Of The Heavenly Rewards That we’re due you had you not been so stupid, continuing in your Disobedience....
You really think that God’s Chastisement serves no purpose ? If nothing else l we can see somebody else do something terribly wrong and see the price that he has to pay, and if we ever get tempted to do the same thing, we might just think Twice not do it....
Like the Israelites in the desert that created the Golden Calf while Moses was on top of Mt.Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments.....They got Chastised , didn’t they? After the Earth split wide-open and the Offenders dropped straight into Hell, I would say that any suggestions of building another Golden Calf got rejected very quickly.....
Chastising teaches lessons to the Guilty AND to those that are considering Sinful Acts and Foolishly Thinking That they can somehow “Get Away With It”......
Sinning hurts the Sinner “and” the one sinned against...God does not like to see people get hurt....When Chastisement INCREASES , Hurtful Sins DECREASE....It makes people better behaved.....and makes for less suffering on this Planet....It was never intended to make anybody perfect....
Nobody can Sin and “ get by with it” ......Chastisement is what makes that statement true....This World is wicked enough “ With” Chastisement—- imagine how much MORE Wicked it would be without God's Chastisement ...
God will NOT be Mocked.....He will not allow His name to be Disgraced before an on- looking world....
We are not robots....we have the freedom to ignore God’s warnings and Chastisements .....and God has the Freedom and the power and the right to make you drop dead in your tracks—- YEARS before your time! Your Salvation will still be intact because it was a GIFT , and the “ Gifts Of God Are Without Recall”.......You will be Saved alright, but you are going to lose a Ton Of The Heavenly Rewards That we’re due you had you not been so stupid, continuing in your Disobedience....
You really think that God’s Chastisement serves no purpose ? If nothing else l we can see somebody else do something terribly wrong and see the price that he has to pay, and if we ever get tempted to do the same thing, we might just think Twice not do it....
Like the Israelites in the desert that created the Golden Calf while Moses was on top of Mt.Sinai receiving the Ten Commandments.....They got Chastised , didn’t they? After the Earth split wide-open and the Offenders dropped straight into Hell, I would say that any suggestions of building another Golden Calf got rejected very quickly.....
Chastising teaches lessons to the Guilty AND to those that are considering Sinful Acts and Foolishly Thinking That they can somehow “Get Away With It”......
Sinning hurts the Sinner “and” the one sinned against...God does not like to see people get hurt....When Chastisement INCREASES , Hurtful Sins DECREASE....It makes people better behaved.....and makes for less suffering on this Planet....It was never intended to make anybody perfect....
Nobody can Sin and “ get by with it” ......Chastisement is what makes that statement true....This World is wicked enough “ With” Chastisement—- imagine how much MORE Wicked it would be without God's Chastisement ...
Thank you for pointing out your difficulty in handling my use of concepts.
The Lord through His will and power gives us choice. He chooses not to force our choices but to allow them. So the Lord is soveriegn but we are allowed to walk away.
It is why there appears a contradiction but it is layers of priority. So much of life is set by our priorities, to love or be selfish which only become clear at the point of testing.
The "and" is an important condition of Pauls declaration. What I declared is saying "Jesus is Lord" is an affirmation of who He is but that is not enough to enter the Kingdom.
How is it that I have failed to speak the truth? All actors learn words to play a part. Unbelievers read prayers and sing songs declaring Jesus is Lord but that does not make them saved.
I have been to church's with great praise, but to share their faith, as if they believed it was so hard...they could taste heaven but not leave the world...
In your words I feel anger, but it's missplaced. You are right I have nerve before the Lord because I listen and follow.
Gob bless you
As a reader of this thread, you appear to have projected an idea being stated and then proposed an argument that puts this statement in a different light.
Please could you state the proposition you are discussing, so that it is clear what you are saying, else it appears you are simply talking to yourself.
And that is fine, but no reader will understand what you mean.
God bless you
I assume you are trying to address me.
"in your belief" - this is an all encompassing statement about my belief which I have not shared.
Maybe you know something more than I do, but your description, "chastisement does not serve any purpose" is not something I hold to.
Repentance, humbleness, accepting guilt and committing to walking righteously is part of following Jesus.
Maybe the use of statement and answer to a position has been miss-understood, which I can understand.
I just thought it would be useful to express my desire to understand what you are addressing, as you seem very distressed.
God bless you
Scripture and the Lord is complex.
When Elijah was being shown the nature of God it came out like this
The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.
And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
1 Kings 19:11-12
The Lord is a gentle whisper, surrounded by a fire, an earthquake, a storm of wind.
You cannot get to the Lord except through the layers surrounding Him, which will destroy us.
There is a difference between factual truth, a single statement of something that summarises everything, and emotional truth that describes reactions to situations, events with many different contexts, layers and conclusions.
Take an episode in King Davids life, about two years long. David see Bathsheba, is relaxing, has a one night stand.
Bathsheba is pregnant, so a cover up is tried, then the husband killed by leaving him alone with enemies in battle.
David is confronted with his sin, he repents, the child dies, and he has another child with Bathsheba, his now wife
and it is Solomon. Quite a nuanced relationship, judgement, failure and sin.
It takes a lot of life experience to understand the greatness of David, and the sin he fell into, the repentance and
restitution that was made once David was confronted.
God bless you
When Elijah was being shown the nature of God it came out like this
The LORD said, "Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by."
Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind.
After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake.
After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire.
And after the fire came a gentle whisper.
1 Kings 19:11-12
The Lord is a gentle whisper, surrounded by a fire, an earthquake, a storm of wind.
You cannot get to the Lord except through the layers surrounding Him, which will destroy us.
There is a difference between factual truth, a single statement of something that summarises everything, and emotional truth that describes reactions to situations, events with many different contexts, layers and conclusions.
Take an episode in King Davids life, about two years long. David see Bathsheba, is relaxing, has a one night stand.
Bathsheba is pregnant, so a cover up is tried, then the husband killed by leaving him alone with enemies in battle.
David is confronted with his sin, he repents, the child dies, and he has another child with Bathsheba, his now wife
and it is Solomon. Quite a nuanced relationship, judgement, failure and sin.
It takes a lot of life experience to understand the greatness of David, and the sin he fell into, the repentance and
restitution that was made once David was confronted.
God bless you
Rudometkin
Active Member
You already taught that everything we do is God's choice. You were like a hyper calvinist just the other day.
Phrases and their meaning should never be seen in isolation.
There is a perspective that declares from the beginning of time God knew man would fall and that Jesus would have
to go to the cross as the atoning sacrifice. Equally all the suffering of existence, children born with horrendous
issues, and pain is part of the whole journey.
Atheists argue that if an action creates a difficult outcome, that outcome is the intended result of the action.
As believers we have to accept that God chose to create a world with good and terrible outcomes.
For it to be moral, the good outcomes must outweigh the bad ones, or else it is worthless, morally.
As a loving God, creating a world with choice, the choices must be real and have real consequences.
In a sense the risk has always been things could go wrong, which is why love desires this situation, in which
love can be planted and grow into a massive Kingdom to the Praise of His glory.
When we look at creation, it is created with the ability to adapt, which expands what is possible in a non-predictable
way, sometimes good, and other times worse. As evangelicals we say God made me as I am, I am His intention.
We are not all the same, and we have varying issues to handle, so this is a difficult statement to make.
For me the variation is what creation is, choosing that which works, and love is seeing this choice as something to
be used for the benefit of all, however we can.
Gods will is to see us freely respond in this world of choice and opportunity to the Praise of His name.
In all this I still see God is sovereign and reigns over all, so many perspectives hold part of what is really going
on. What is crucial is seeing how amongst it all Jesus declares He loves us, and desires we might know Him.
God bless you
First you have not offered any kind of well thought out rebuttal with Scripture. You just make smirk remarks (i.e. scorning or scoffing) alone as if that proves you are somehow correct.
Second, the Bible is not always easy to understand in every case. If you have studied the Bible for any length of time, you would know this. So not all verses or passages are simple (and thus have a simple explanation). For example: Do you think John 5:24 is referring to believing in Jesus or the Father? At times, we can all be guilty of reading with preconceived ideas going into the text and that is not how it should be. Continual study of God’s Word and accepting what the text says (with the help of the Spirit) will help us to put away any of our own thoughts we are imposing upon Scripture.
Three, you said that I would be running away in explaining John 5:24. You were wrong, my friend. For me: It was easy to refute your wrong false thinking because I have encountered the OSAS (or the sin and still be saved) false interpretations on Scripture many times before. Again, what do you do with verses like John 8:51 where Jesus says, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.” ? For Jesus is saying here not to just believe on Him alone or the finished work of the cross to be saved but to keep His sayings (words) whereby one will never see death. We see a similar thing in Matthew 7:26-27. Jesus says that everyone who does not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house. This means that one will be destroyed in the Lake of Fire if they do not obey Jesus. This is not a belief alone in Jesus for salvation alone by any means. How do you ignore these kinds of verses.
Four, the King James Bible uses the word “simple” in a good way and a bad way in the Bible. No offense, but I believe you are using it in a bad way, friend.
“How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?” (Proverbs 1:22).
For if you do study and read the Bible, you read it from the perspective of what you have been taught from Protestantism and you did not do so based upon solely what the text says and with the help of the Spirit. For you: Protestantism cannot be wrong. You are open-minded to Protestantism or outside ideas contrary to the Bible (that justifies wrong doing). So you read the Bible using the Protestant lens or in using Protestant glasses because it fits your lifestyle. In fact, I should not be surprised; Most people don’t want to pick up their cross, deny themselves, and follow Jesus. That’s not comfortable for them to do. You want Jesus to be your Savior, but you don’t want to make Him your Lord (as how it is written in His Word).
I say all this not to wound you dear sir, but to guide you into the truth of God’s Word and to truly know His love, peace, and joy.
Anyways, may God’s good ways shine upon you;
And may God bless you (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).
Picture source:
Defined King James Bible (Publisher: Biblefortoday.org).
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John 6:45 says, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
In other words: Every man (the Jew) who has HEARD (listened to God through obeying God's commands) and has learned of the Father (loving others - Matthew 5:43-48) comes unto me (i.e. Jesus).
John 6:45 is clear in that this is not in reference to unbelieving Jews or unbelieving Gentiles. This is in reference to those Jews who had a relationship with God because they heard and learned of the Father. THESE are the ones who are drawn by the Father to come to Jesus. Not just anybody!
Side Note:
As for the phrase, “It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God.”: This is in reference to Isaiah 54:13-14 that says:
“And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.” (Isaiah 54:13-14).
Meaning, this is in reference to God's children who are established in righteousness (i.e. in seeking God's grace, and in living holy unto the Lord). So John 6:45 is in reference to Jews who have a relationship with God the Father. This is the context of John 6:44. So this is not some kind of forced thing going on (i.e. anti-free will) involving those who do not believe when it says draw. John 6:44 is referring to how no Jew can come to Jesus without first hearing and learning from the Father beforehand (John 6:45).
When Jesus was lifted up (resurrected), He would be the One who would draw all men unto Himself. So this has changed after the resurrection of Christ.
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth,
will draw all men unto me.”
(John 12:32).
will draw all men unto me.”
(John 12:32).
In addition, man has free will to choose God under God's drawing and or illumination:
Free Will in choosing God in the Bible:
#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"
#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."
#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."
#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."
#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"
#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"
#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"
#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"
#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."
#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."
#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me”
So the human will is not fallen and corrupted? Ephesians 2 from verse 1 onwards seems to say that it is.
Nowhere does Ephesians 2 say that the human will is so corrupted that they cannot choose Jesus under His drawing (See: John 12:32). That is something Ephesians 2 does not say (nor any other piece of Scripture). You are reading into the text something that is not there. You are also not dealing with the many verses that does talk about free will. I mean stop and think a moment. Psalms 7:11 says God is angry at the wicked every day. If Calvinism was true, then why is God angry? He could just snap His fingers and make them elect and not be angry anymore. That’s why Calvinism is just dumb and does not make any sense when we read the Bible.
"And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Ephesians 2.1-7)
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