The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

[Bible Highlighter]

But all the other sins she was “practicing” were okay, huh Dan?

Religious false doctrines do strange things to otherwise intelligent and cunning men in other matters…

“For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.” (Jeremiah 4:22)

Great verse.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Yes, we need to put Jesus and His desires above our own just as Jesus put the Father and His desires above His own.

We do all need to examine ourselves indeed. But I think the issue at heart is having a correct view of sin and salvation to begin with. Many Christians today think they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and all future sin is paid for. So living holy is not as necessary or one can just live a little bit holy and yet also slip in some sin (so as to justify it). The believer who believes sin can destroy their soul could be doing wrong, but if his sin is pointed out, or God chastens him on that sin, He can stop and treat sin properly. But the Belief Alone Salvationist is not capable of this. They believe they can sin and still be saved on some level (because all sin in the future is paid for). They may not go out and get drunk and sleep around, but if they believe they justify other smaller sins (that the Bible condemns), then they are no different than Hyper Grace Christians who do think they can do extreme types of evil and be saved while doing such evil.

The issue at heart here is the false teaching that a person can just believe in the finished work of the cross saying (Which is a Protestant saying), and yet they are saved by believing this fairy tale. Meaning, they don’t have to worry about how one ultimately lives to enter the Kingdom. They will say we are legalists even if we quote the Bible. That’s the real heart of the issue here. They don’t accept the whole counsel of God’s Word. That’s what is going on here. It has nothing to do with me but it has to do with what the Bible says. We all must tremble at His Word, but the OSAS crowd (or the Sin and Still Be Saved Christian) does not tremble at His Word. There is no real reason to. They got their guaranteed ticket to Heaven and that’s it. No debate for them (even when Scripture condemns their belief).

I wasnt directing this at anyone and especially not you.

Didnt Jesus,Paul and aren't we to turn them over to God and if they continue in choosing to believe in deception, he will turn them over to a reprobate mind and let them believe a lie & be damned.

I know it is stressful for those that follow to want all to follow the word. We however only cause ourselves grief bc it is their choice to resist the conviction of the Holy Ghost. By this rejecting and continuing in disbedience of unbelief of the DOCTRINES in the Word, it is no longer our problem. We are not greater than God the Father, God the Son, Jesus nor God the Holy Ghost.

This is HOW the devil steals our PEACE & JOY by us continually striving to get so called believers to BELIEVE the WORD !

Im done with doing this, it is fruitless!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I wasnt directing this at anyone and especially not you.

Thank you for saying that.

Didnt Jesus,Paul and aren't we to turn them over to God and if they continue in choosing to believe in deception, he will turn them over to a reprobate mind and let them believe a lie & be damned.

I know it is stressful for those that follow to want all to follow the word. We however only cause ourselves grief bc it is their choice to resist the conviction of the Holy Ghost. By this rejecting and continuing in disbedience of unbelief of the DOCTRINES in the Word, it is no longer our problem. We are not greater than God the Father, God the Son, Jesus nor God the Holy Ghost.

This is HOW the devil steals our PEACE & JOY by us continually striving to get so called believers to BELIEVE the WORD !

Im done with doing this, it is fruitless!

Yes, I think there is a point where we have to let it go with them (By God's leading). But I also believe in taking a stand for the truth of God's Word not just really for them (although I do hold out hope in my prayers that at least one or two may change at some point down the road) but I take a stand for God's Word for others who are seeking the truth. Meaning, a truth seeking Christian may Google this topic, and come to this forum, and they will read the verses and know the truth (or confirm the truth of God's Word). So it is sort of like fishing. I am laying the bait of God's Word for those who truly are truth seekers and not the rejecters of God's Word. The seed will be planted where it needs to be planted. I know that God's Word does not return void. So any preaching of the Word is not in vain (Even though we may not always see the results ourselves). So I do not see it as fruitless, sister. Can it be frustrating at times? Sure. But that is our test to love all others (even when we may not be loved). Truth is not always popular to hear. Warning somebody that the bridge is seriously damaged up ahead and they are in a hurry to get somewhere may not make you liked, but if it can potentially save their soul (It is worth it).

May you be at peace in the Lord in all things.
God bless you and your family greatly.

With loving kindness to you in Jesus.

Sincerely,

Your Bible Highlighter.

 

[BarneyFife]

Romans 7 is dealing more than the ten because Paul hints at the problem of “Circumcision Salvationism” in Romans 3:1, and Romans 4:9-12 (See: Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

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Not exactly what I would call contextual evidence, but then, I never said that Romans 7 was dealing with only the ten, anyway. My point was that the law directly referred to in Romans 7 is the same one that contains the 4th commandment, which the vast majority of Protestants and virtually all non-denoms today reject as obsolete.
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Even in another letter to the Galatians Paul points out that when he refers to the Law it is the whole thing

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So, the reference you give to Galatians determines what the word "law" means in Romans 7?

Is that what you're claiming here?
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You are not rightly dividing so as to see which Law Paul is talking about.

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It looks to me like "law" means whatever one wants it to mean in any given part of Scripture, depending on their theology.
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...we are not to keep certain months, days, or years (Galatians 4:10-11)... Paul said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2).

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A common tactic of 4th commandment objectors is to equate it with circumcision, which is really odd since circumcision isn't listed with the other nine exclusively "moral" commandments.

What exactly constitutes a "moral commandment," anyway:

What God says or what man says?
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(Note: This would not be the Laws of Christ given to us by Jesus and His followers in the New Testament).

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Who knows what they are?
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This is evident that when Paul spoke against the Law, it included how we are not to keep certain months, days, or years (Galatians 4:10-11).

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Paul never spoke against the law, in general.

He only spoke against the use of it as the means to salvation.

Or, as a hammer, with which to pound another's head.
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So when Paul spoke negatively of the Old Law, it was the whole thing (i.e. the Torah or the 613 Laws of Moses given to Israel)

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This is another sweeping generalization for which I can find no Biblical grounds nor even usefulness.

And a rare appearance of the elusive number "613," which appears nowhere in the Bible.
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(Note: Granted, again certain laws - like the moral laws like do not murder, do not steal have been repeated or carried over into the Laws of Christ).

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And, again, uncertainty as to what constitutes "moral commandments."
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Paul said if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2).

Paul basically implies that if you necessitate one aspect of the Old Law (that no longer applies) like circumcision, you need to keep the whole thing (or all of it).

“For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.” (Galatians 5:3).

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I was circumcised at birth, so I guess I'm a debtor to do the whole law.

There's something missing from this picture.

Interesting that he goes to the trouble of specifying "the whole law" here. As if the qualifier "whole" was needed to identify something about the law to which he is referring.
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Paul says we are to serve in newness of spirit and not in the oldness of the letter (Romans 7:6).

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I see this verse tossed around a lot but, usually, no one bothers to explain what it means, and it certainly is not self-explanatory.
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Romans 13:8-10
"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and...

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AMEN.
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...if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.”

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However, here's another one that's no less ambiguous. Are we to determine from this that the first and great commandment is a wash?

People seem to have an uncontrollable urge to use isolated Pauline statements as all-encompassing principles.
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So loving your neighbor fulfills the Old Law.

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...whatever "Old Law" means. ¿
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So you no longer believe we have to keep the Saturday Sabbath as Seventh Day Adventists teach?

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Well, does "Romans 7:7-12 and Matthew 24:20 are not direct, positive commands to keep the Sabbath" sound like "I no longer believe I have to keep the 7th-day Sabbath" to you?

I'm generally quite careful to say what I mean and mean what I say. It is a trait that was ardently molded into me from my very early childhood.
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I am not saying I am not infallible when it comes to interpreting God's Word.

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I wonder if this could be the subconscious at work.

You are actually saying you are infallible here.

Nevertheless, one does not have to claim infallibility to believe it, any more than a narcissist would claim narcissism.

Just sayin'.
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[BarneyFife]

I have changed my views multiple times on things over the years.

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This is commendable.
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What theological things were you mistaken about in your growing knowledge of God's Word?

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Well, as hard as I've been on you, I would hope that I haven't given the impression that I judge you to be a hopeless cause, because nothing could be further from the truth. At times it is very obvious that you have a heart that wants to see people thrive spiritually and know the Truth. And overall, I perceive that you are far more conscientious than I.

But I believe you, like many of us, suffer from the "knowledge puffeth up" malady.

I have had to unlearn a lot.

And my list might be longer or shorter than yours and would have more or fewer items that I would consider essential.

But since I'm not interested in a contest, I'll just say I'm an admirer of the thread, and that I have actually seen it before.

Yes, I served my time at CF, as well.
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I am just basically saying that the Sabbatarian interpretation Matthew 24:20 is not valid - IMHO (In my humble opinion).

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There is no interpretation to validate or invalidate.

It says what it says. It is evidence, however weak or strong it may be, of the perpetuity of the 4th commandment—not proof.
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This is because Christians are not under the Old Law or the Saturday Sabbath. Colossians 2:14-17 makes this fact very clear.

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...whatever the "Old Law" or "Saturday Sabbath" means.

The law is the law and the Sabbath is the Sabbath. All are free to determine what they "are under."
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There are also no Sabbath commands, and no Sabbath day breaking sins listed in the New Testament, either.

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The standard, garden-variety argument from silence that one wouldn't think would make any difference to the conscientious, obedient follower of Christ and the Father, who are One and would surely hold the same view of what is lawful.

If ye keep My commandments, ye shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.​

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Acts 15 at the Jerusalem council would have been a prime opportunity to tell the Gentile Christians in how they must also keep the Saturday Sabbath,

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It sure would have!

It would have been a great place to announce that The Law Of God was having a 10% OFF SALE, too!!
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but that point was never brought up because it simply not a part of the Laws of Christ or the New Covenant way.

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...or maybe this is just another unfortunate argument from silence to excuse folks from obeying God rather than man.
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[BarneyFife]

Christians gathered on the first day of the week in Scripture (Sunday), and they did not gather on Saturday to fellowship (with just themselves alone).

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There is absolutely no Scripture anywhere to support the transfer of the solemnity of the blessed and sanctified from creation, Sabbath of the LORD to the 1st day of the week.

The Old Testament, known for its prolific prophetic content, is particularly silent on this point.

Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.​

No respected, non-Catholic scholars advance this spurious theory anymore.
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Now, they did go to the Jewish synagogues on Saturday to evangelize, but that was evangelism and not fellowship (among the brethren only).

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Again, the pursuit of a case that the Sabbath was changed or abrogated by the apostles is futile.

It is a complete non sequitur.

The fact that evangelistic activities took place on Sabbath contributes exactly -nothing- to the case for Sunday sacredness, and it betrays a desperation to find and present evidence that the Decalogue is alterable. The law of God is a transcript of His character, which will never and has never changed. It is easier for Heaven and earth to pass away.

And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.​

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Another forum I posted at later was ChristianForums.com.
As of today's date I posted 39,861 writings or posts there. I was not banned.

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...which is why I was careful to say "banned or shunned or something."
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I am willing to disagree on many different topics involving the Bible.
But when it comes to sin and salvation, this is one we cannot disagree on.

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I find I don't have a choice as to that with which I agree or disagree. What is true is true.
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The 4th commandment was good for the Israelite under the Old Covenant.

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It would have been great, had they not insisted on the unregenerate "All that the LORD has said, we will do" bit.

O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear Me, and keep all My commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!​

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So do you believe a person who has an experienced with Buddha is saved and converted and it is wrong for us to speak against such a thing?

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Well, I can see how this would seem to be a pertinent question, given my "brother in Christ" specification.

Although I don't personally know of any brothers in Christ who have had a saving, conversion experience with Buddha.
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Again, there is a right way to do things involving the Lord Jesus, and there is a wrong way.

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No doubt
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Charlie24 came to the Lord Jesus thinking he could declare he was a sinner (present tense) saved by God's grace when that is not a teaching in the Bible. The preacher was taking pieces of Scripture out of context to justify that we are sinners (present tense) saved by grace. Charlie24 believes in the false view that Jesus did it all for him and so all his future sin is paid for. This means that he has a license to sin on some level

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You seem to be assuming an awful lot about the inner workings of @Charlie24's mind here.
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(Which is what Jude 1:4 warns us against). 1 John 1:7 basically says you have to walk in the light (love your brother - 1 Jhn 2:9-11) for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you from all sin.

In Luke 18:9-14, the Tax Collector was referring to his past life of sins when he spoke in the present tense. He was not speaking how he was sinning in the moment or he was going to sin again or that being a sinner was forever part of who he was for all time.

Titus 2:11-12 says God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world.

1 Peter 4:18
“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”

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This is pretty much all just preaching-to-the-choir stuff, really.
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I believe that we are under the commands given to us in the New Testament and not the Old Testament. So we don’t have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etcetera. We are to follow the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers (in the pages of the New Testament).

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Well, it's good for one to know what one believes.
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[Renniks]

Many Christians today believe in Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.
They think that all you need is a belief alone in Jesus as the Savior and your good to go to enter Heaven

So if I have faith and accept Jesus, that won't save me if I then die immediately?
I can't agree.
What else do you need?

 

[BarneyFife]

So if I have faith and accept Jesus, that won't save me if I then die immediately?

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It certainly worked for the thief on the cross but surely you must realize that this represents a very small fraction of conversion examples in the Bible. And I remember hearing it used as a template for Gospel sermons, in general, when I was a lad in the Southern Baptist communion of faith.

Not that "deathbed confessions," as they are called, are inherently ingenuine, but they are suspect in nature, at least, by the standard of many Christians.

The simple and obvious truth is that it matters not what anyone else thinks about the relationship between a soul and their God. The experience is either genuine or it is not and no one but the parties directly involved will know the true state of things until the judgment is set.
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What else do you need?

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Not a thing; a divine heart change is all that it is needed all along our pilgrim journey, but can it be denied that if a man live for any substantial amount of time after his conversion, he might be expected to exhibit some traits of the type that would result from sanctification? Like it or not, you appear to be implying the "thief on the cross" model of evangelism as the gold standard here, and it begs the question: Would you say that is wise?
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[Renniks]

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It certainly worked for the thief on the cross but surely you must realize that this represents a very small fraction of conversion examples in the Bible. And I remember hearing it used as a template for Gospel sermons, in general, when I was a lad in the Southern Baptist communion of faith.

Not that "deathbed confessions," as they are called, are inherently ingenuine, but they are suspect in nature, at least, by the standard of many Christians.

The simple and obvious truth is that it matters not what anyone else thinks about the relationship between a soul and their God. The experience is either genuine or it is not and no one but the parties directly involved will know the true state of things until the judgment is set.
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Not a thing; a divine heart change is all that it is needed all along our pilgrim journey, but can it be denied that if a man live for any substantial amount of time after his conversion, he might be expected to exhibit some traits of the type that would result from sanctification? Like it or not, you appear to be implying the "thief on the cross" model of evangelism as the gold standard here, and it begs the question: Would you say that is wise?
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Of course change is going to happen... fruit is the natural result of transformation. But my salvation doesn't rest on how much I changed for the good.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

1 Corinthinans 2 :1-3 ( cxt )
And I, brethern, when I came to you, came NOT with excellency of speech or of wisdom,declaring unto you the testimony of God.
For I determinef NOT to know any thing among you,save JESUS CHRIST, and him CRUCIFIED.
And I was with you in WEAKNESS, and in FEAR, and in MUCH TREMBLING.

Paul states here when he went among the believers at Corinth he came in weakness,fear and much trembling. Not that he was a weak man for he had excelled in the sports arena,was taught & studied under the best scholars of his time.
Paul was renowned of the ppl b4 the road to Damascus.He came unto those he wished to CONVINCE in a humble, insignificant personage. Why ?
Paul himself stated that to win some to the Lord he had to become as they were, and be the very least among them, not some boisterous, braggart whom as one out of time, but as one who had seen Jesus.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Galatians 3:1/2 ( cxt )
O foolish Galatians, WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU, that ye SHOULD NOT obey the truth, before whose eyes JESUS CHRIST HATH BEEN EVIDENTLY SET FORTH. CRUCIFIED AMONG YOU?
This only would I learn of you,
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, OR BY THE HEARING OF FAITH.
Galatians 6:12-15 ( cxt )
V.14. But God forbid that I SHOULD GLORY, save in the CROSS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, by whom the world is crucifief unto me, and I unto the world.

There were some of the Jews who came among the ppl that had received Christ for their salvation, trying to convince them that what they received was NOT enough.

They were told that they must practice the law as well as live under GRACE; NOW THIS IS WORKS. Look again, yes I said now this is works salvation !!!!!!!!

Ppl are bewitched,convinced, indoctrinated, brain washed, coerced,threatened and commanded to walk as I walk by many preachers, teachers ect. ect into believing a lie and WILL BE DAMNED !

Study the word for yourselves, be convinced by the Spirit what is the TRUTH, challenge what youve been taught, know in you very core that you stand and OBEY THE TRUTH IN GODS WORD !

 

[BarneyFife]

Of course change is going to happen... fruit is the natural result of transformation.

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What kind of transformation are we talking about?

Once and done?

Because that hasn't worked for me at all.

I've had to do some abiding and walking in Christ to see the sort of change that would seem at all consistent with the scriptural depiction of sanctification.

I greatly admire those who are able to do it on autopilot.
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But my salvation doesn't rest on how much I changed for the good.

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To be sure, our works are not our savior.

But they will be our judge, according to the testimony of Scripture.

And, as before, in terms of authority, our interpretations of Scripture are of no weight whatsoever to God and His governance.

The vast majority of what we say that isn't quoted from the Bible itself should probably be taken with a grain of salt, I would say.

Wouldn't you?
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[Renniks]

Once and done?

Nope. But no, you don't get saved over and over again. Most of us rise and fall and get back up and it's not always a steady upward climb. That doesn't mean we lost our salvation and had to get saved again. If you are going through a period where you are producing less fruit than you would like, are you not still saved?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Galatians 3:1/2 ( cxt )
O foolish Galatians, WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU, that ye SHOULD NOT obey the truth, before whose eyes JESUS CHRIST HATH BEEN EVIDENTLY SET FORTH. CRUCIFIED AMONG YOU?
This only would I learn of you,
Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, OR BY THE HEARING OF FAITH.
Galatians 6:12-15 ( cxt )
V.14. But God forbid that I SHOULD GLORY, save in the CROSS OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, by whom the world is crucifief unto me, and I unto the world.

There were some of the Jews who came among the ppl that had received Christ for their salvation, trying to convince them that what they received was NOT enough.

They were told that they must practice the law as well as live under GRACE; NOW THIS IS WORKS. Look again, yes I said now this is works salvation !!!!!!!!

Ppl are bewitched,convinced, indoctrinated, brain washed, coerced,threatened and commanded to walk as I walk by many preachers, teachers ect. ect into believing a lie and WILL BE DAMNED !

Study the word for yourselves, be convinced by the Spirit what is the TRUTH, challenge what youve been taught, know in you very core that you stand and OBEY THE TRUTH IN GODS WORD !

Yes, I see this as Paul condemning how we cannot keep the many laws within the Law of Moses like the necessity of keeping circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, holy days, etcetera. We are not under the Old Law but we are under the laws of Christ.

I also see this as Paul referring to our Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation. Paul was not condemning how we need to be fruitful to our obedience to Christ and or in living holy according to the Sanctification of the Spirit after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul says that God has chosen us to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Which is a much neglected verse in Scripture).

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Yes, I see this as Paul condemning how we cannot keep the many laws within the Law of Moses like the necessity of keeping circumcision, dietary laws, sabbaths, holy days, etcetera. We are not under the Old Law but we are under the laws of Christ.

I also see this as Paul referring to our Initial Salvation or Foundational Salvation. Paul was not condemning how we need to be fruitful to our obedience to Christ and or in living holy according to the Sanctification of the Spirit after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul says that God has chosen us to the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 (Which is a much neglected verse in Scripture).

Paul was rebuking them for letting others come in with more than Christ Jesus.

If we let more from man come into how or what we think and believe, then whom do we belong to ?

Too many ppl do NOT know about sanctification, for it is seldom taught. Too many others do not care for a WORK IN PROGRESS bibical instruction.

Jesus said " sanctify them by thy TRUTH, thy WORD is truth.

Ppl c/p or use anothers commentary as their own bc they lack taking up the sword and letting it do Gods work !

 

[BarneyFife]

Nope. But no, you don't get saved over and over again. Most of us rise and fall and get back up and it's not always a steady upward climb. That doesn't mean we lost our salvation and had to get saved again. If you are going through a period where you are producing less fruit than you would like, are you not still saved?

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I don't concern myself too much with being "saved," as if it were some kind of operational status/condition that goes up and down, like a machine.

I have sufficient evidence that God has done, is doing, and will always do everything in His power to save all men. I am not special in that regard, at least, to myself.

But, on the other hand, I don't see my initial conversion experience as anything different than what I seek to do every day.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.​

I ask God to forgive my sins and change me more and more into the likeness of His Son. That's what I did on day 1.

Since He knows when our probation will end, I don't believe God erases and rewrites our names in the book of life over and over. That just seems silly to me.
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[Renniks]

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I don't concern myself too much with being "saved," as if it were some kind of operational status/condition that goes up and down, like a machine.

I have sufficient evidence that God has done, is doing, and will always do everything in His power to save all men. I am not special in that regard, at least, to myself.

But, on the other hand, I don't see my initial conversion experience as anything different than what I seek to do every day.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.​

I ask God to forgive my sins and change me more and more into the likeness of His Son. That's what I did on day 1.

Since He knows when our probation will end, I don't believe God erases and rewrites our names in the book of life over and over. That just seems silly to me.
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So you actually believe in OSAS then.

 

[Taken]

The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.
OP ^

Problems? No.
Problem? Yes. Singular.

One problem with Belief Alone (Receiving salvation - ism)

IS: failing to become “Converted” (and “assuredly kept in belief, by the indwelling power of God”) and Instead, “hope” by ones own “willpower”, they “continue”in belief to the day they physically die, to “then become saved”.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Problemsof Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

Problems? No.
Problem? Yes. Singular.

One problem with Belief Alone (Receiving salvation -ism[/S).

IS: failing to become “Converted” (and “Kept in Belief, by the Indwelling Power of God) and INSTEAD....“Hope” by ones own “willpower”, they “continue” in belief to the day they physically die, and “then become Saved”.

There are other believers like me even in this thread who have a problem with Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. Just look at the likes on my OP, as well. So what you say does not make sense, my friend.

 

[Behold]

There are other believers like me even in this thread who have a problem with Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. Just look at the likes on my OP, as well. So what you say does not make sense, my friend.

God accepts Christ's blood and death to accept you., and nothing else... John 14:6
If someone who does not accept that writes Threads and posts that prove it, then ......... they have an issue with God's Salvation.

See, Salvation is not Christ's Cross + your help
And everything that you try to do to stay saved or be saved, that is not simple FAITH in CHRIST that God accepts to save you, is a lie if its taught as anything to do with Salvation.

Reader, do this...
Put your bible knowledge away.

Now...pretend there is no Bible.

Its just you,... a lost sinner......hellbound.
You have not been taught any theology.
You are just LOST, and want to go to heaven.
How do you do it?

= THE CROSS OF CHRIST.

Can you see it?
= There is your Salvation, as that is the ONLY Salvation that God has created to accept you.
Go there, and He will.

See, the issue with too much theology, is that it can ruin simple faith in Christ as proven by about 98% of the legalism/ self saving/ broken faith theology that pollutes all "christian' Forums, and most denominations.