The Problems of Perpetual Belief Alone Salvation-ism.

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As you all insist when claiming ''OSAS'' is a myth.
And then you all claim it is a myth because it gives license to sin.
Which is a lie from the lips of the adversary. Because God's word says those who have eternal life salvation DO NOT make a habit of sinning.
If they do they do not know Jesus and his truth is not in them.

That's true.

I. Fall Away List of Verses:

If we are never in jeopardy when we sin, then the Bible would not teach that we can fall away from the faith; But it does teach that we can fall away.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk say.

 

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Yours is the protracted testimony of the anti-gospel proponents. Like the demons in scripture said of themselves, you, and the others here, are legion.

We know you by your rotted fruit suspended word for word from a withered vine.

You are not nourished by/as fruit of the Spirit.
That is why you all are fixated on your flesh and its parts to save you through the expenditure of your own choices and labors.

The ego,the vanity,the selfishness , the self-centeredness, the self-absorption, all wrapped in what is defined as autotheism.
Self as God.

Because the anti-gospel proponents deny,as you did in your post to me, Jesus finished work on the cross saves.

Legalists!

A symptom of the anti-gospel proponents. You all who insist faith is impotent. And grace can be abused if you don't work to help God keep his word.

That idea is averse even to the very meaning of grace. But you don't know that.

You and your fellow AG proponents insist humans have to work to earn salvation daily. Else ''grace is abused''.

You have to perpetually repent of your sins,every single one, or they're not secure in Christ.And grace is thus abused.

You have to labor,work,to show yourselves approved still to be in God's grace, and on and on.
Because eternal salvation is a lie. As you all insist when claiming ''OSAS'' is a myth.
And then you all claim it is a myth because it gives license to sin.
Which is a lie from the lips of the adversary. Because God's word says those who have eternal life salvation DO NOT make a habit of sinning.
If they do they do not know Jesus and his truth is not in them.

That's true.

As evidenced by the anti-gospel proponents who insist they have to repent perpetually their sins, else they'll lose salvation.
You can choose to lose your salvation just as you think you choose to receive it. That's not Jesus' Gospel.
That's the anti-teaching of his adversary. [''If you're the son of God....'' prove it by your works.]

The teachings that contradict and warp all that Jesus taught and then sealed with his blood to guarantee that eternal salvation covenant. A free irrevocable gift of faith and Salvation from God according to his grace, not our works so we may not boast.

Unlike the anti-gospel doctrinaires whose efforts to defend their false gospel depict continual boasting of and by the flesh.
We must work to stay saved or else. We must constantly repent to stay saved or else. We choose to be saved, we can choose to lose our salvation too. On and on. Boasting of natural man's control.

Working your way to heaven. Because the anti-gospel proponents, again contradicting Jesus' teachings, insist they choose him.
And from there they have to labor [in vain] to keep the salvation they chose for themselves.

That's why you and those others here are wrong.

As you insist the anti-gospel is truth. When in truth it is averse to the truth. Averse to the gospel.

You are not led to salvation by God's call to receive his free irrevocable gift of faith and salvation.
As you tell us over and over when you all insist we you choose to follow Christ.
From the moment you think you can choose to be saved it is the natural next false step to insist you have to choose to retain it by your decision to labor according to what you think are those rules,legalism,that would garner your success.

Works, perpetual begging of forgiveness for every sin,because you believe your sins condemn you. Insisting as you all do that eternal life,salvation, is a falsehood.
All characteristics of ego.

God gifted faith and salvation brings peace to his people.

Anti-gospel doctrine brings stress.

Because the natural man sees something he wants, to live forever, and naturally thinks they are responsible for acquiring it for themselves.
Which is why you and others in the anti-gospel movement denigrate faith and grace.

Your arguments denote stress that labors to remain in a place as a foreigner .
Because you admit you are not saved by grace alone, through faith alone, that are irrevocable gifts of God alone.

No! You choose Jesus. You work to stay saved!
You're wrong.God tells you you're wrong.

And while there may be someone who says in this protracted rebuttal post I can't judge who is saved or not, I'll tell them I'm not saying the anti-gospel proponents, the 'we choose' Jesus, we work to remain approved/saved crowd are not in Christ, led by God to Jesus, gifted eternal irrevocable salvation by grace alone, are not in Christ.

They are.

[Typo fix]

One particular wrong sin is all it takes to be separated from GOD.

Adam and Eve died spiritually the day they disobeyed God's command. Granted, I believe they reconciled with God, but the point is that a person can die by their sin. Take Ananias and Sapphira. They lied to the Spirit and they each were killed. It says in Scripture that a great fear came upon the church and all who heard about this. But if they were Once Saved Always Saved, then fear does not make sense in this story. If they were never saved to begin with, then why would the church fear if they were fake believers? The only reason fear makes sense is if the same thing could happen to them.

 

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No man cometh unto Me lest the Father draw Him .

This was said in context to those who have heard and learned of the Father come unto Jesus (See: John 6:45). This was in context to the Jew at that time. After Christ had risen, it would then be Jesus who would draw all men unto Himself.

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.” (John 12:32).

 

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Ah, you're a Legalist.
Which is why you are opposed to Jesus teaching that we are irrevocably in faith and are saved by God's grace. Which is not of ourselves so that, unlike you insist, we cannot boast.

It is impossible to reach Legalists with proper Exegesis.

Thanks for your time.

As for boasting mentioned in Ephesians 2:8-9.

Ephesians 2:1 also says that we have been quickened. So Ephesians 2 is primarily talking about "Initial Salvation." For being quickened is a one time event. To be quickened means to be born again spiritually (Which can happen when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord). In fact, Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Which is a general call to all that a person needs to accept Christ, i.e. "Initial Salvation").

Ephesians 2:4 is talking about God's love from since the time of when the salvation of Christ appeared to all; For "God is rich in mercy" in the fact that He died upon the cross (paying the penalty for our sins - God's grace and mercy), and as a result: He is able to forgive us of our sins (mercy) when we first come to Him by seeking His forgiveness and or by seeking salvation from our sins by believing in Jesus as our Savior (Whereby we would want to follow Him and turn from sin). "His great love that he has loved us" was from eternity's past until now and forever. This love can be found in the Son and in accepting Him as our Savior.

Ephesians 2:5: "Even when we were dead in our sins," as a part of our old life, God quickens us together with Christ when we come to him in faith (For Ephesians 2:8, says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"). For by grace are we saved. This is how our faith begins and this is the foundation of our faith. In fact, if we were to sin again, we do not do a good work to get clean, or forgiven, but we go to God's grace (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1). Hence, why we are not saved by "Works Alone." We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace.

So it is by God's grace, who is a person named Jesus Christ and what He has done for us, by which we are saved by the vehicle of faith. We are saved by His mercy when we first come to Him and we are saved by His mercy if we were to stumble (on occasion) in the fact that we seek forgiveness with Him by faith. This is not something that is of ourselves that we can take credit for here. This is God's grace. It can cleanse us. Both when we first come to Him and if we ever were to stumble on occasion. It is a gift of God. Jesus. He is that gift. For by Jesus we can seek out His forgiveness and be reconciled by what He has done for us with His death and resurrection.

This Jesus who is grace and the gift is what saves us ultimately and it is not of our works alone. For if salvation was by works alone (without God's grace), then a man could boast. So salvation is not by Works ALONE (Without God's grace) so that any man should boast.

Ephesians 2 is primarily focuses on our initial or ultimate salvation (See Ephesians 2:11-18), and not on our Sanctification or the works that must follow. Verse 10 is merely a quick point of what needs to happen after we are saved by God's grace (Jesus). Nothing in Ephesians 2 is clearly mentioned about Sanctification (or living holy) as a part of our salvation because it's focus is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism (which was by the false heresy of Circumcision Salvationism - See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 2:3, etcetera). However, we know by other verses in the Bible that Sanctification is a part of our salvation (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). Even Jesus said if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). Hebrews 5:9 says that Christ is the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. So Scripture has to be read as a whole and we cannot isolate verses so as to justify a wrong belief (Especially when that belief is immoral).

Side Note:

There is also no boasting in a believer who properly holds to the biblical teaching of being saved by God's grace (without works) in their Initial Salvation (Ephesians 2:8-9), and then how they continue in God's plan of salvation by believing how God has chosen them to salvation through the Sanctification of the Spirit and a belief of the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:13) whereby they sow to the Spirit (i.e. in well doing) whereby they will reap everlasting life (Galatians 6:8-9).

While believers have free will and must cooperate with God to do the work, who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

“Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 1:6).

So a true believer boasts in Christ and gives praise only to Him and not themselves if they do a good work. So yes. There is no boasting. Believing in the proper view of salvation as taught by God is not boasting. Paul was not referring to works salvation in the Sanctification Process after we are saved by God's grace. Paul was condemning those who thought they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved (Which was a part of the Old Law or the Torah and not the commandments of Jesus Christ).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ah, you're a Legalist.
Which is why you are opposed to Jesus teaching that we are irrevocably in faith and are saved by God's grace. Which is not of ourselves so that, unlike you insist, we cannot boast.

It is impossible to reach Legalists with proper Exegesis.

Thanks for your time.

Most people do not understand that Paul was fighting against a heresy of which I call "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. Paul himself said we are not under the Law (Romans 6:14) (Which would be the Torah), but he was under the Law(s) to Christ (See: 1 Corinthians 9:21). In fact, Paul said if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (See: 1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. Jesus even agreed with the lawyer that to love God, and to love your neighbor is a part inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). Paul said that we can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we don't provide for our own (especially our own household) (1 Timothy 5:8). This is a good work to provide for your own and it is clearly tied to salvation. Yet, in Protestant Belief Alone Salvationism, one can just believe in the finished work of the cross and scoff at obedience as a part of our entering the Kingdom and not worry about 1 Timothy 5:8.

 

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Talk can often be cheap . But do heed this . NEVER ONCE ENTER INTO COVENANT of any kind with THE CC and her all inclusive we are one unity delusion .

I am not Catholic, and I am strongly against Catholicism.
Just because I am teaching the Bible in what it says plainly in regards to salvation (in that we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification) does not mean I agree with that church (which I find to be in great error). They believe in the worship of statues, and praying to dead people (the saints) just to name a few of their major problems.

That is the DELUSION that is fast sweeping many right into a convenant with the second death and perditon of ungodly men .
AND THAT IS A FACT .

While Catholicism is the first largest branch of Christianity, they really don't focus much on evangelism like Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists do. Generally people are Catholic because of their family, etcetera. The strong delusion in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 is...

(a) They believed not the truth,
(b) They had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

So this would be all unbelievers. Those who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness (Because sin is pleasurable to people).
Unfortunately, this would include Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists because they believe they can sin and still be saved on some level, and the Catholics because of their idolatry, necromancy, etcetera. They each are not dealing with putting away certain sins properly (According to the Bible). Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists are closer to the truth, but they still are in grave error, as well. Most today simply cannot see this. Only God can reveal this to a person with His Word (For those who are seeking the truth).

 

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John 6

John 6:37-40 says,

37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."​

First, what does Jesus mean by,

“All that the Father giveth me come to me?”​

Well, we have to understand that the Father elects those based on His future foreknowledge of our free will choice concerning Him (1 Peter 1:2) (Deuteronomy 30:19). Also, we also have to understand that not everyone is going to be saved; However, it is God's will that all people should be saved, though (1 Timothy 2:4) (2 Peter 3:9) (Revelation 22:17). This is why we read in Scripture about how many are called, but few are chosen (Matthew 20:16).

Same meanings since all are given the chance to have life through Jesus. But those who are His have come so willingly in faith, repenting and turning with a sincere heart; forever to the submission of God’s commandments and desires.

Verse 39 implies that it is possible for Jesus to lose some of the flock. If it were not so, He would have said so. But if what you say is true, then Jesus would have said,

"I WILL lose nothing."​

However, that is not what Jesus said. Jesus says,

"I SHOULD lose nothing."​

John 6:39 (KJV) says,

"And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day."

Second, eternal life here is not a guarantee. Jesus says in verse 40

"MAY have everlasting life".​

John 6:40
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

In other words, Jesus should lose none and all who are His should be raised, because they should all continue in the righteousness God gave them through the sacrifice of Jesus. It’s not that Jesus isn’t capable of keeping up with His sheep; it’s that He never keeps His sheep against their wills. How so?

Well, we see in Scripture that the Father gave all of the disciples to Jesus; However, Jesus kept them all except Judas, though.

John 17:12 says:

"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."​

Now, allow me to rephrase this in modern-terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, but the green marble.​

And OSAS terminology:

While I was with the marbles in the world, I kept them. Those marbles that you gave me I kept, and none are lost, except for the green marble that you never gave me.​

Do you see now how OSAS doesn't make any sense?


Old Source Link Used:
http://conditionalsalvation.com/
(Note: Website no longer active)

 

[Bible Highlighter]

John 10

John 10:28
“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”

Now let's read the context.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

So the sheep FOLLOW Jesus.
This means that they obey Jesus.

What else does verse 27 says?

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
(John 10:27).

1 John 2:3 essentially says that the way we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord is if we find that we are keeping His commandments.

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments." (1 John 2:3).

1 Corinthians 8:3 says,
"But if any man love God, the same is known of him."

Jesus says,
"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love." (John 15:10).

So taking this all into account, we have to keep His commandments as a part of the kind of sheep that will never perish or be snatched out of his hand. The command keeping sheep will never be snatched out of his hand and will never perish. Jesus is not talking about sheep who break his commandments and or who are lazy and do not follow Him.

So you have to keep His commandments as a part of life.
Jesus even says this in Matthew 19:17-19, and implies this by agreeing the lawyer that we have to love God, and love our neighbor as a part of inheriting eternal life (See: Luke 10:25-28).

 

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Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his course, but the LORD determines his steps.

Psalms 37:23
The steps of a good man are ordered by the LORD: and he delighteth in his way.

1 Samuel 2:9 NIV
“He will guard the feet of his faithful servants, but the wicked will be silenced in the place of darkness. “It is not by strength that one prevails;””

1 John 2:29
“every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.”

Psalms 106:3
“Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.”

 

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Proverbs 16:33The lot is cast into the lap, but the decision is the LORD's alone.

This is talking about the casting lots and not salvation. While God is the provider of salvation, and He can keep us from stumbling, we also have our part to do. For we are told to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
We are told to fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12).

 

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''And whoever sees me sees him who sent me. ''

When you read John 12:45, you also have to read and believe John 12:48 that says,

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).

So if we do not receive Jesus' words, they will judge us on the last day.

What words of Jesus do Christians today do not accept or receive that will judge them on the last day?

Oh, His words in Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, Luke 9:62, Luke 10:25-28, etcetera.

For example: Matthew 6:15 says if we do not forgive, we will not be forgiven by the Father. This means we will not be saved if we don't forgive others. Jesus did not say... if you believe on the finished work of the cross it does not matter if you forgive or not. Jesus did not say that.

 

[amigo de christo]

The point of this thread is recognizing the problems in Perpetual Belief Alone Salvationism. This thread is not about what BarneyFife wants to make it about. The type of works we are to do would be another topic of discussion for another thread. One has to refute the false teaching of a person’s view of sin and salvation before they can move on to doing a specific work. Good works will only benefit the person who has a correct view of sin and salvation. Most today do not have a correct view of God’s plan of salvation today.

Many within the church no longer hold some sins as even being sin . They simply pick and choose what sin to expose
while over looking other sins and even accepting some sins as valid and good . We are witnessing what leaven left uncorrected
will do to a church . Time to return to the pattern that JESUS taught and later the apostels expounded on and taught .
IT is the Only pattern that works . When a church begins to omit that pattern leaven comes in and will fill the place full .
Error let uncorrected ALWAYS begets only MORE error . Thus any sin and error within the church must be corrected asap .

 

[amigo de christo]

I am not Catholic, and I am strongly against Catholicism.
Just because I am teaching the Bible in what it says plainly in regards to salvation (in that we are saved by God's grace and Sanctification) does not mean I agree with that church (which I find to be in great error). They believe in the worship of statues, and praying to dead people (the saints) just to name a few of their major problems.



While Catholicism is the first largest branch of Christianity, they really don't focus much on evangelism like Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists do. Generally people are Catholic because of their family, etcetera. The strong delusion in 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 is...

(a) They believed not the truth,
(b) They had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

So this would be all unbelievers. Those who believed not the truth and had pleasure in unrighteousness (Because sin is pleasurable to people).
Unfortunately, this would include Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists because they believe they can sin and still be saved on some level, and the Catholics because of their idolatry, necromancy, etcetera. They each are not dealing with putting away certain sins properly (According to the Bible). Protestant Belief Alone Salvationists are closer to the truth, but they still are in grave error, as well. Most today simply cannot see this. Only God can reveal this to a person with His Word (For those who are seeking the truth).

Yes many within the protestant realm are in serious and deadly errors themselves .

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ah, you're a Legalist.
Which is why you are opposed to Jesus teaching that we are irrevocably in faith and are saved by God's grace. Which is not of ourselves so that, unlike you insist, we cannot boast.

It is impossible to reach Legalists with proper Exegesis.

Thanks for your time.

Do you believe you are saved by keeping at least part of this commandment?

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

To believe in the name of Jesus Christ is a part of salvation, right?
Yet, it is a commandment that one should obey, right?
Is that not legalism because it is dealing with a law?

Can you be saved without faith?

Romans 5:1 says, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

According to the above verse, we need faith to be saved.

But Paul refers to faith as... the law of faith.

Paul says, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27).

One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith (KJB), or faithfulness (Modern Translations) (Galatians 5:22).
There is no Law against these fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:23).
So our having faith in what God or Jesus tells us to do (like picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and following Jesus etc.) or faithfulness is not against any law of God.

It's going back under the Old Law (in how we must obey all the Torah or in those who stress of the necessity of obeying certain aspects of the Torah like keeping the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etcetera) that is condemned in Scripture (Colossians 2:14-17) (Galatians 5:2) (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-24). For a person cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (i.e. the Old Law) (See: Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Paul never condemned the keeping of the Law(s) of Christ.

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Do you believe you are saved by keeping at least part of this commandment?

“And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.” (1 John 3:23).

To believe in the name of Jesus Christ is a part of salvation, right?
Yet, it is a commandment that one should obey, right?
Is that not legalism because it is dealing with a law?

Can you be saved without faith?

Romans 5:1 says, “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:”

According to the above verse, we need faith to be saved.

But Paul refers to faith as... the law of faith.

Paul says, “Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith.” (Romans 3:27).

One of the fruits of the Spirit is faith (KJB), or faithfulness (Modern Translations) (Galatians 5:22).
There is no Law against these fruits of the Spirit (Galatians 5:23).
So our having faith in what God or Jesus tells us to do (like picking up our cross, denying ourselves, and following Jesus etc.) or faithfulness is not against any law of God.

It's going back under the Old Law (in how we must obey all the Torah or in those who stress of the necessity of obeying certain aspects of the Torah like keeping the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, etcetera) that is condemned in Scripture (Colossians 2:14-17) (Galatians 5:2) (Acts of the Apostles 15:1-24). For a person cannot be justified by the Law of Moses (i.e. the Old Law) (See: Acts of the Apostles 13:39). Paul never condemned the keeping of the Law(s) of Christ.

The plan if salvation has been discussed and posted by me and many others here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The plan if salvation has been discussed and posted by me and many others here.

Yes, but this plan of salvation is simply non-existent when we examine the light of God's Word (the New Testament Scriptures).
No Christian ever said in the New Testament that they were saved by a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior (or believing the finished work of the cross), and nothing else.

Such sayings would run contrary to other verses in the Bible. For example: Paul says fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). So you have to fight. We have to wage a good warfare (1 Timothy 1:18). We have to hold on to the faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have shipwrecked their faith (1 Timothy 1:19). Paul says, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The plan if salvation has been discussed and posted by me and many others here.

He has in own self righteous plan.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I see the cut and paste king is at it again. Just as he was as “loveGodForever” in christian chat. Nothing changes

 

[Blue Dragonfly's]

Yes, but this plan of salvation is simply non-existent when we examine the light of God's Word (the New Testament Scriptures).
No Christian ever said in the New Testament that they were saved by a belief alone in Jesus as their Savior (or believing the finished work of the cross), and nothing else.

Such sayings would run contrary to other verses in the Bible. For example: Paul says fight the good fight of faith and lay hold on eternal life (1 Timothy 6:12). So you have to fight. We have to wage a good warfare (1 Timothy 1:18). We have to hold on to the faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have shipwrecked their faith (1 Timothy 1:19). Paul says, “But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” (1 Corinthians 9:27).

The plan if salvation is non-existent in the new testament?

I know what you're on about now. You're auditioning for post writer at the Babylon Bee.

 

[Wynona]

I. Fall Away List of Verses:

If we are never in jeopardy when we sin, then the Bible would not teach that we can fall away from the faith; But it does teach that we can fall away.

Here are several lists of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith:

Here is a General List of Verses on How Believers Can Fall Away:

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3​

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (like they would a pair of car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)
Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)
The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)
Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)
Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17-18)
Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)
Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14-15)
Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8-10)
Ananias and Sapphira (Acts of the Apostles 5:1-11)​

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45-46)
Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14-15)
Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)
Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)
Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5-6)
Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)
Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7-8)
The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back (James 5:19-20)​

In fact, Paul is against Eternal Security or a sin and still be saved type belief. For Paul says,

1. We can fall from grace (Galatians 5:4).
   
   
2. We can be moved away from the hope (Colossians 1:23).
   
   
3. We can be a castaway (1 Corinthians 9:27).
   
   
4. We can be cut off just like the Jews if we do not continue in God’s goodness (Romans 11:20-22).
   
   
5. We can sow to the flesh and reap corruption instead of sowing to the Spirit which reaps everlasting life. (Galatians 6:8).
   
   
6. We can deny God by a lack of good works (Titus 1:16).
   
   
7. We can shipwreck our faith (1 Timothy 1:19).
   
   
8. We can deny the faith and be worse than an infidel if we do not provide for our own household (1 Timothy 5:8).
   
   
9. We can err from the faith and pierce ourselves thru with many sorrows if we love and covet after money (1 Timothy 6:10).
   
   
10. Hymnenaeus and Philetus have overthrown the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

These things would not exist in Scripture if things are as OSAS folk say.

Good stuff here. I appreciate the patient teaching and give God glory for it.

I cannot see into people's hearts or try to guess the motives of anyone here. I can only examine why OSAS once appealed to me. But I feel like people think without hyper-grace and OSAS they cannot have a relationship with the Lord. They dont believe God is able to make them stand and not stumble against Him.

I also feel like once you get into an OSAS mindset, it can lead you to feel superior to anyone who "relies on works". Spiritual superiority is an addictive feeling that can be hard to let go of.

There's also the simple fact that sin feels top good to give up but we want to be assured that were okay in that.

No matter what the reason, Ive found that many are not willing to be wrong about OSAS.

Hebrews 5:9

And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,


How then is obedience legalism? How is it missing the mark of salvation?

Are we willing to risk our souls on something that isn't biblically supported? Why not rather throw out all the things youve heard and read the Scriptures with fresh eyes, just looking to see what it plainly says?