The Qualification for Holiness

[Behold]

there are two types of Baptism by the Spirit. A. the Baptism "of" the Holy Ghost, that birth you. and B. the Baptism "WITH" the Holy Ghost that empower the believer.

Sanctification is a continual process since a believer is not completely freed from sin until the day of resurrection.

Like a lot of people who have learned some, you state things, but you dont actually explain anything.
For example, to state there are 2 types of Baptisms, is fine, but, when you dont explain the difference, or when you dont explain at what point these "2" occur, is to have explained nothing, but only stated your idea.

Also, and again, you state that "sanctification is a lifelong process" but you dont explain how it happens., or why.

Here is a hint.
Jesus has become UNTO US.......redemption, wisdom, eternal life, and sanctification.

So, the "becoming" sanctified, is not because we work to become more clean........or separated unto God, more and more......but rather, the becoming is to understand that you are already redeemed, made righteous, and sanctified by the Blood of Jesus, and the PROCESS that you didnt explain 101g, is to "work out your salvation, = that is to exist within the Right Believing that empowers the sanctified Life.

 

[Behold]

No one is yet in Hell.
Hell is the place assigned after judgment before the great white throne.

And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
-Revelation 20:12-15
https://christiananswers.net/q-grace/hell-occupants.html

Notice in your verse that it says that "hades delivered up the dead who were in them".

The dead, are the Christ rejectors.
"Hades" is a particular term for Hell, where these damned are waiting to be "delivered UP"

They are delivered up to this. John 3:36 that ends up, as Rev 20:11, with the final stop being the Lake of Fire.

Paul said, "absent from the body and present with the Lord".

= The born again die, and are instantly found where Jesus is.... = heaven.

This means that the Spirit departs the body, upon death.........regarding all people.
So, the born again depart to Jesus.
The non-born again, the Christ Rejector, their Spirit departs to another place, and that is Hell.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

Like a lot of people who have learned some, you state things, but you dont actually explain anything.
For example, to state there are 2 types of Baptisms, is fine, but, when you dont explain the difference, or when you dont explain at what point these "2" occur, is to have explained nothing, but only stated your idea.

maybe before you run your mouth without reading, the next time you might understand, listen up,

there are two types of Baptism by the Spirit. A. the Baptism "of" the Holy Ghost, that birth you. and B. the Baptism "WITH" the Holy Ghost that empower the believer.

you can fine those statements in POST #12.

Now if you like to discuss them please post your questions.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

The dead, are the Christ rejectors.

another ERROR on your part.
there are two types of DEATH. which apparently you have no clue to.

not all dead are in hell. scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" and they are not in heaven.

not there is a difference in the two "DEATHS"... (smile).

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Behold]

GINOLJC, to all.

maybe before you run your mouth without reading, the next time you might understand, listen up,

I think it you that needs to read more carefully.

You stated something regarding (2) Baptisms and some literature regarding Sanctification, but to state the verses, is not to explain what you are trying to prove.
Its not enough to just state that we are to do it, or that it happens.

As i said.

 

[Behold]

another ERROR on your part.
there are two types of DEATH. which apparently you have no clue to.

not all dead are in hell. scripture, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" and they are not in heaven.

not there is a difference in the two "DEATHS"... (smile).

I didnt say that all the dead are in hell.
I said that all the Christ rejectors are in Hell.

And you do not understand, "dead in Christ".
The dead in Christ are the born again, who have died.
They are not in the Grave, they are in Heaven with Jesus, or as Paul teaches....>"absent from the BODY"......understand? that is to die......and "present with the Lord"......is an immediate situation, for all the born again.
Or as Paul teaches again...>"its is far better to be with Christ"......= to die as born again......and you are instantly there.

And more.
You speak of 2 deaths, but you have not listed the 2nd yet.
Let me help you.
"second death"......that is Revelation 20:11, "depart from me i never knew you"...into "outer darkness"..
That is the 2nd Death, and that one, is reserved for this group, .... John 3:36.

So, its like this, 101g.
The born again are born TWICE, and die ONCE.

The Christ Rejector, is born once and they die TWICE.

 

[101G]

Paul said, "absent from the body and present with the Lord".

= The born again die, and are instantly found where Jesus is.... = heaven.

well the Lord Jesus is not only in HEAVEN, he's everywhere even in HELL, for he has the keys to it. everything is his, yes including hell, and the Lake of FIRE... supportive scripture, Psalms 139:7 "Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?" (ONE NEED TO READ THAT AGAIN). Psalms 139:8 "If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there." (BINGO, the LORD JESUS IS IN HEAVEN AND HELL, and everywhere else too). Psalms 139:9 "If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;" Psalms 139:10 "Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me."

now one more, Jeremiah 23:23 "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off?" Jeremiah 23:24 "Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD."

see how foolish that answer you gave is, "Paul said, "absent from the body and present with the Lord". = The born again die, and are instantly found where Jesus is.... = heaven."

Present with the Lord, and U made it in heaven, see, you assume that. and then you said, but the save there too... in heaven, well listen up, Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth." the Lamb that was standing, is the resurrected christ, JESUS. slain means or is symbolic for died, but standing is symbolic for a. resurrected, and b. with all power. and he came, (see John 14:18), into all, all, all, all, the earth. do you know what "ALL" the earth means? answer, on the earth and UNDER the EARTH. yes the LIVING and the DEAD. which includes, the GOOD, the BAD, and the UGLY. supportive scripture, Romans 14:9 "For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living." Bingo.

Now where is the DEAD? answer, 1 Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"

descend from HEAVEN means that the Dead in christ didn't RISE in heaven, but on planet EARTH. meaning they are not in HEAVEN. because the spirit which is of God returns to God, but do that means the spirit returns to HEAVEN?, NO, because God is EVERYWHERE, did you not read, Matthew 28:20 "Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."

apperently some didn't understand what the Lord Jesus said, LISTEN, "and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen."
did you see it or rather hear it? guess not, let the Holy Ghost open your eyes, and ears, "and, lo, I am with you alway". see it now, "IM WITH YOU", not YOU "WITH" ME.

and if you're thinking about John chapter 14, "where our Lord is at we'll be there also", let but any false teaching to bed, John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." BINGO, how plain can one get.

now if he's coming back for us, then we're not where he is now. and the reason for that is because heaven is coming to earth, and not you going to heaven.... Revelation 21:2 "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."

Now my Question, many say I'm going to heaven when I die, and spent eternty with the Lord IN, IN, IN, heaven. well fine but just one question, if the Lord is coming to EARTH to set up his KINGDOM here, (and we're suppose to be "with him", so why are you in Heaven then? ... Duh? if he's on earth in the flesh, the new man, sitting on David throne, here on earth, why are you in heaven then? new Jerusalem is coming down, to the EARTH. well maybe just to visit heaven? ok, but he the Lord Jesus will be here "WITH" his people, oh, don't worry, we can send you a post card from time to time........


Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[101G]

I said that all the Christ rejectors are in Hell.

how do you know that? question, did you ever reject christ at a point in time? and mind you, never say never when it comes to God. because no one knows what God can do. he can do do anything.

just like the Jews, fleshly circumcise rejector are hell bound too. well according to the LAW was they?, scripture, Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" Romans 2:15 "Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)"

just as with the Law, what if there are some who didn't have JESUS, the Lord, the Christ, (the gospel had not been preached unto them, yet, and died), but they did the things by nature as those in Christ Jesus, having the works of christ written in their hearts, and their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another", is they hell bound? if I was you I wouldn't answer that.

you nor I are God, I nor you have no heaven nor any hell to put anybody anywhere, in or out of. why not leave the JUDGMENT up to GOD... just try to get the gospel out to everyone, and let the Lord Judge us on that also.... ok.

Remember, Don't argue with 101G, argue with the scriptures, God Holy Word.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[APAK]

What I did my friend is simplified it as you requested by putting it my own words instead of using scriptures. I can support my beliefs step by step with scripture as I am sure you can as well. Arguing the point by citing scriptures won't change our positions. You doubt my faith and accuse me of something I never claimed. You presume you know what I am doing and how I serve God. You certainly do not. You say that 'I have assumed', but if I were so inclined I could say and describe the same thing about your words. I won't because I don't want to win an argument and I could not any more than you could.

I bid thee farewell and God speed. I am sorry you insisted on pursuing this in this manner... We do live for God by faith rather than by knowledge!

I wish you no ill-feelings or unrest by my comments...

You are sorry I pursued questioning - why?(rhetorical). I just was inquiring what you meant in Post #5 with my two questions I posed. I read into your words then and even now, that you have to keep moving forward and engage God in 'your' plan for perfection, or attaining perfection.

We have Christ's spirit today. I rely on him to keep engaging me, as he first did when he arrives in my life, and he does. I also have grown more freely with confidence, to ask of him as well. We are engaging each other, I believe, in spirit, truth and love. I have learned to use him for all my needs, all my requests, ultimately sent and seen by the Father in heaven. This then is me, being perfected and being in the kingdom through Christ, while I live on this earth.

The difference between your use of 'perfect' in say Job 1:1 and also found in other places in Job and Matt 5:48 is that the former does not really mean perfect at all; especially spiritual perfection in heart and mind. The Hebrew word used is 'yashar' that means a person of integrity, and considered blameless; not perfect, and of course not sinless.

The latter in Matthew 5:48, means being perfect or being completed in Christ. The Greek word is 'telios'. That is the ONLY way we can present ourselves perfect, every time we come to the Father through Christ's spirit. The Father then only sees us as a member or body of Christ, as being spiritually perfect, to our Father, as the Father is always consistently perfect, in heaven.(Matt 5:48)

Job was never being spiritually perfected to the Father, in the Kingdom, as the Father in heaven, as a reborn person is being perfected in Christ today.

Job was faithful to the purpose of God in is life. He never faltered through good and hard times. His great blessings were bestowed on him especially in the end, indicative of his unwavering and increasing faith for God. And God even spoke to Job directly. There was no advocate or intermediary, lamb. perfect sacrifice, that could present Job's spirit perfect to the Father. Today we have Christ's spirit to 'talk to' and through him to God, our Father.

Anyway amadeus, I do not expect any response. I just wanted to share my view as well

God's speed to you also

APAK

 

[101G]

this is GOOD we all share our view. My view here, as with a natural father and child, any father's natural child is their Love of their life. babies and children are innocent in their parent eyes. even though sometimes we call them ... "littles devils" we love them to death.... just as our heavenly Father, as said in Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

just as earthly father overlook a child wrongdoing, but instruct them of age, but as the Lord said, Matthew 18:1 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:5 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

here again the term "humble himself " come up again which is the same requirement found in Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

there it is. "humble" oneself unto God. Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

I must thank God for my friend amadeus who saw it also.

so when we view these "SAINT" in the OT and the NT, we can learn from them as the apostle said, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

my other pick, from the OT is the "Innkeeper", and not the Harlot, as the term may be define back then, concering this woman Rahab, who was a very interesting person of FAITH.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[APAK]

this is GOOD we all share our view. My view here, as with a natural father and child, any father's natural child is their Love of their life. babies and children are innocent in their parent eyes. even though sometimes we call them ... "littles devils" we love them to death.... just as our heavenly Father, as said in Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

just as earthly father overlook a child wrongdoing, but instruct them of age, but as the Lord said, Matthew 18:1 "At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?" Matthew 18:2 "And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them," Matthew 18:3 "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:5 "And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me."Matthew 18:6 "But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea."

here again the term "humble himself " come up again which is the same requirement found in Micah 6:8 "He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

there it is. "humble" oneself unto God. Matthew 18:4 "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

I must thank God for my friend amadeus who saw it also.

so when we view these "SAINT" in the OT and the NT, we can learn from them as the apostle said, Romans 15:4 "For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."

my other pick, from the OT is the "Innkeeper", and not the Harlot, as the term may be define back then, concering this woman Rahab, who was a very interesting person of FAITH.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

There has not been much I've agreed with you on over the last year or so, this post I agree with...
I agree humility and a contrite heart is the approach to perfection in the Kingdom, whether one is of the OT or in the NT, in Christ. Both can be counted as righteous according to God. It is a great subject.

There is just one thing I would like to add on this subject. Coming to Christ for the first time or as Job revealed his faithfulness to God for the first time in his life, both were counted as genuinely righteous. They came to the Father as children indeed. As children grow however with knowing the roles and the love of their parents for the first time, they learn to become bolder and confident in asking for things and showing who they are as an individual. This is not to negate they have lost their initial humility and state of innocent spirit that first had when they were first conscious of their love for their parents. I at least know that I have this same humility and respect for Christ and the Father when I come to them, again and again. I just see it as they know me more and know that my heart is genuine in truth and my approach is in deep respect and humility...this I will never lose as I grow and mature..

Bless you,

APAK

 

[charity]

Hello there,

Sanctification is one of the four things which God has made Christ to be unto His people. They are 'Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Sanctification, and Redemption.' (1 Corinthians 1:30)

It is the common practice with those who do not see the truth of 'the two natures' to constantly speak of Sanctification as if it were a progressive work by which the Old nature is constantly improved until it is made meet for the inheritance of the saints (ie., sanctified ones) in light.

But the opposite is the fact. Scripture never speaks of 'a change of heart'. That is man's formula. God speaks of a 'new heart' being created: but never of the old heart 'changed'. True with Israel in the coming day of blessing, the heart will be exchanged - the stony heart for a heart of flesh, but even that will not be the 'change' of one into the other. The Holy Spirit never speaks of His work as being the improvement of the old nature, on the contrary, He tells us that the old man is hostile to God (Romans 8:7): that he cannot get to know spiritual things: that they are foolishness to him (1 Corinthians 2:14)

From this it is surely clear that if the natural man can neither 'receive' nor 'get to know the things of the Spirit of God' how can he be sanctified? The flesh is eternally opposed to the spirit. ie., the Old nature is eternally opposed to the spirit, which is the New nature, as Galatians 5:17 testifies. Conflict is not Sanctification! Neither is the Spirit of God in His operations in our New nature improving that with which He is carrying on a warfare.

Those who are looking for Sanctification as a progressive work are looking for a ground of peace in a sanctified nature, instead of being occupied with that peace which has been made by the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Instead of being occupied with Christ's finished word for them, they are taken up with an ever un-finished work in them. It is a question of Christ or self; and the only reason why multitudes of Christians are occupied with progressive sanctification is because it exalts self. Whereas the work of the Spirit is just the opposite - that is:- to glorify Christ. 'He shall glorify me' were the Saviour's words (John 16:14), and in them we have a standard by which we may test everything in us and around us.'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

I hope that I will live to see the day when even a single, modern-day church, preaches the simple Truth.

It is so simple. It is so clear. A child can understand the things that Paul has written, yet as noted above, virtually no church teaches what Paul clearly taught throughout his amazing writings. Here it is again . . . the very Heart of, and reason for the Bible to have ever been written. It is the utter Key to understanding the entire Bible as a whole. THIS is what makes us Holy . . . nothing else, lest we have the right to boast.

Colossians 2:9-15 KJV - "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15 [And] having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."

 

[amadeus]

But, if you get Alzheimer's disease you may not 'really want it' (continuous surrender to God) any longer.

Then what? No salvation?

Do you really believe that any external physical problem we may encounter is going to remove any of us who sincerely love God out of His reach?

 

[amadeus]

I wish you no ill-feelings or unrest by my comments...

You are sorry I pursued questioning - why?(rhetorical). I just was inquiring what you meant in Post #5 with my two questions I posed. I read into your words then and even now, that you have to keep moving forward and engage God in 'your' plan for perfection, or attaining perfection.

I have discussed this issue with many people numerous times over the years. I could, if if were inclined argue for the other side, [your side] using scriptures as well but that would be dishonest on my part because of where my faith is... where I am with God. The Bible can be used to support any argument, but when God is really involved in a person through the Holy Ghost we should be not be traveling down the pathway of simply trying to convince people that 'I already have it and/or I am already right and they are wrong'. Rather we should be trying to understand and to grow closer to Him.

Am I already saved to the point that I will never backslide... that I will never look back with hunger for those wrong things in which I have been into before? Perhaps! I have a good idea of where I am, but I won't reveal even much of that except as God directs me to do so.

What upset me was that you spoke as if I had been traveling down a wrong road all of the way all of these years as if I had no real faith in God now... yet I know that God is really first in my life, in my heart today before anything and anyone...

I, like everyone else, I believe, have taken more than one wrong turn since I began to serve God. If we have read about David the shepherd boy... become King of Israel, we recall that he certainly took more than one wrong turn... but in his heart something was right that God always took into consideration. David went through things and grew. I take the contrast between King David and his predecessor, King Saul as my example of the two ways a person who is anointed of God may go today. When we, with the Holy Spirit in us, choose too often the way of Saul, we will reap effectively the final reward seen in the scripture for Saul. Who is able to see a 'Saul' among us without a special personal revelation from God. As to seeing one who is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer, who but one given the eyes to see it from God could see it?

We have Christ's spirit today. I rely on him to keep engaging me, as he first did when he arrives in my life, and he does. I also have grown more freely with confidence, to ask of him as well. We are engaging each other, I believe, in spirit, truth and love. I have learned to use him for all my needs, all my requests, ultimately sent and seen by the Father in heaven. This then is me, being perfected and being in the kingdom through Christ, while I live on this earth.

I have no difficulty with this. On the contrary, I give God the glory for your direction and purpose.

The difference between your use of 'perfect' in say Job 1:1 and also found in other places in Job and Matt 5:48 is that the former does not really mean perfect at all; especially spiritual perfection in heart and mind. The Hebrew word used is 'yashar' that means a person of integrity, and considered blameless; not perfect, and of course not sinless.

I study and look up some word meanings, but I do not use the conclusions found in my references, however good they may seem to be, as my conclusions out of hand. Really as I have said many times on this forum, I strive each day in my personal time with God to start always at the 'lowest room' emptying myself as much as possible of every preconceived idea I have about God and the things of God. Then I strive to leave it to Him to elevate me if He warrants that elevation is needed.

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

Many times over the years that I have been going to the lowest room when I left I could not see a definite difference in what I believed from what I had believed prior to entering in... but sometimes I did change immediately and sometimes it came much later. This is why you will often here me speak of effectively no or few ATs [Absolute Truths]. It is why even though I do not personally embrace it, I do completely disregard your view or those of many others which seemingly are opposed to my own. I am climbing the hill, the slippery or talus slope. I want to always continue to gain ground.

You like your plateau as do many other standing perhaps on different plateaus. God is at the top. As an unclean beast at the very lowest level of the ark, I may be saved from the drowning killing flood outside, but what happens when He opens the Door for me to come out? Consider what happened to Canaan the son of Ham! Was not Ham one of the 8 human beings saved in the Ark?

If we all had to be experts in the meanings of all the words in the original written languages of scripture to be right in the eyes of God, a lot of people would be lost and without hope, wouldn't they?

The latter in Matthew 5:48, means being perfect or being completed in Christ. The Greek word is 'telios'. That is the ONLY way we can present ourselves perfect, every time we come to the Father through Christ's spirit. The Father then only sees us as a member or body of Christ, as being spiritually perfect, to our Father, as the Father is always consistently perfect, in heaven.(Matt 5:48)

Job was never being spiritually perfected to the Father, in the Kingdom, as the Father in heaven, as a reborn person is being perfected in Christ today.

Job was faithful to the purpose of God in is life. He never faltered through good and hard times. His great blessings were bestowed on him especially in the end, indicative of his unwavering and increasing faith for God. And God even spoke to Job directly. There was no advocate or intermediary, lamb. perfect sacrifice, that could present Job's spirit perfect to the Father. Today we have Christ's spirit to 'talk to' and through him to God, our Father.

Anyway amadeus, I do not expect any response. I just wanted to share my view as well

God's speed to you also

APAK

Communication is very often a problem for people who really are serving God, communication between brothers in the Lord. Again with your explanation about the meanings of "perfect" you have part of your understanding, but you still fail to understand where I am on the whole picture, the whole vision that I have from God. Perfect clarity? Certainly not and I would be surprised if you said that your vision was perfect or flawless or contained no room for improvement or growth...

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

That man had two touches of the hand of Jesus. How many have we had? How many do we need?

Forgive me old friend for being sharp and critical against you on this thing. I am still flesh and I still get tired and when I have walked for even short periods of time on my own instead of in His Spirit, sometimes the result comes right out of my mouth or into my fingers as I type. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him!

 

[WaterSong]

*I've made my reply in blue font to differentiate from the quoted texts that are broken up for individual response.

Notice in your verse that it says that "hades delivered up the dead who were in them".

The dead, are the Christ rejectors.
"Hades" is a particular term for Hell, where these damned are waiting to be "delivered UP"

They are delivered up to this. John 3:36

To? Verse 36 reads, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. "

that ends up, as Rev 20:11, with the final stop being the Lake of Fire.

Hadēsis, is the Greek word for Sheol, the grave.

Paul said, "absent from the body and present with the Lord".

= The born again die, and are instantly found where Jesus is.... = heaven.

This means that the Spirit departs the body, upon death.........regarding all people.
So, the born again depart to Jesus.
The non-born again, the Christ Rejector, their Spirit departs to another place, and that is Hell.

Prior to the NT and Paul's writings there is this from God; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Orthodox) 7 Then shall the aphar return to ha’aretz as it was; and the ruach shall return unto HaElohim who gave it.

NET Version Translation: 7. and the dust returns to the earth as it was,and the life’s breathreturns to God who gave it.

 

[APAK]

I have discussed this issue with many people numerous times over the years. I could, if if were inclined argue for the other side, [your side] using scriptures as well but that would be dishonest on my part because of where my faith is... where I am with God. The Bible can be used to support any argument, but when God is really involved in a person through the Holy Ghost we should be not be traveling down the pathway of simply trying to convince people that 'I already have it and/or I am already right and they are wrong'. Rather we should be trying to understand and to grow closer to Him.

Am I already saved to the point that I will never backslide... that I will never look back with hunger for those wrong things in which I have been into before? Perhaps! I have a good idea of where I am, but I won't reveal even much of that except as God directs me to do so.

What upset me was that you spoke as if I had been traveling down a wrong road all of the way all of these years as if I had no real faith in God now... yet I know that God is really first in my life, in my heart today before anything and anyone...

I, like everyone else, I believe, have taken more than one wrong turn since I began to serve God. If we have read about David the shepherd boy... become King of Israel, we recall that he certainly took more than one wrong turn... but in his heart something was right that God always took into consideration. David went through things and grew. I take the contrast between King David and his predecessor, King Saul as my example of the two ways a person who is anointed of God may go today. When we, with the Holy Spirit in us, choose too often the way of Saul, we will reap effectively the final reward seen in the scripture for Saul. Who is able to see a 'Saul' among us without a special personal revelation from God. As to seeing one who is already an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer, who but one given the eyes to see it from God could see it?


I have no difficulty with this. On the contrary, I give God the glory for your direction and purpose.



I study and look up some word meanings, but I do not use the conclusions found in my references, however good they may seem to be, as my conclusions out of hand. Really as I have said many times on this forum, I strive each day in my personal time with God to start always at the 'lowest room' emptying myself as much as possible of every preconceived idea I have about God and the things of God. Then I strive to leave it to Him to elevate me if He warrants that elevation is needed.

"When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him;
And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." Luke 14:8-11

Many times over the years that I have been going to the lowest room when I left I could not see a definite difference in what I believed from what I had believed prior to entering in... but sometimes I did change immediately and sometimes it came much later. This is why you will often here me speak of effectively no or few ATs [Absolute Truths]. It is why even though I do not personally embrace it, I do completely disregard your view or those of many others which seemingly are opposed to my own. I am climbing the hill, the slippery or talus slope. I want to always continue to gain ground.

You like your plateau as do many other standing perhaps on different plateaus. God is at the top. As an unclean beast at the very lowest level of the ark, I may be saved from the drowning killing flood outside, but what happens when He opens the Door for me to come out? Consider what happened to Canaan the son of Ham! Was not Ham one of the 8 human beings saved in the Ark?

If we all had to be experts in the meanings of all the words in the original written languages of scripture to be right in the eyes of God, a lot of people would be lost and without hope, wouldn't they?


Communication is very often a problem for people who really are serving God, communication between brothers in the Lord. Again with your explanation about the meanings of "perfect" you have part of your understanding, but you still fail to understand where I am on the whole picture, the whole vision that I have from God. Perfect clarity? Certainly not and I would be surprised if you said that your vision was perfect or flawless or contained no room for improvement or growth...

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

That man had two touches of the hand of Jesus. How many have we had? How many do we need?

Forgive me old friend for being sharp and critical against you on this thing. I am still flesh and I still get tired and when I have walked for even short periods of time on my own instead of in His Spirit, sometimes the result comes right out of my mouth or into my fingers as I type. May God richly bless you as you walk with Him!

Thank you for your time in writing this full response in true honesty, in concern for me, in your words, that emit the same sincere emotions that fly off the page to my mind and into my heart, from yours.

Let's both enjoy the Kingdom together, as we both share today in Christ!

Bless you again, as God Almighty is always the first and the last, for all glory is his alone brother.

APAK

 

[WaterSong]

*I've made my reply in blue font to differentiate from the quoted texts that are broken up for individual response.


To? Verse 36 reads, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. " Hadēsis, is the Greek word for Sheol, the grave.

Prior to the NT and Paul's writings there is this from God; Ecclesiastes 12:7
Orthodox) 7 Then shall the aphar return to ha’aretz as it was; and the ruach shall return unto HaElohim who gave it.

NET Version Translation: 7. and the dust returns to the earth as it was,and the life’s breathreturns to God who gave it.

Also, lets look at more of the chapter in Revelation 20 that you cited in your reply using verse 11. But beyond that.
NET Version: Revelation 20:
11 Then I saw a large white throne and the one who was seated on it; the earth and the heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne. Then books were opened, and another book was opened—the book of life. So the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each one was judged according to his deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire. 15 If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, that person was thrown into the lake of fire.

If Hades is Hell and Hell is the lake of fire then Hell was thrown into Hell?

Notice also that the Apostle John, who was in the spirit on the Lord's day, Sunday, is referring to what is to come. The Book of Revelation, contains future events/revelations of what was to come, not what was occurring.
* And to note, the days of the week in John's time were not named as we know them today. The names for the days of the week we refer to are actually derived from pagan god's and goddess identities as they were thought to be in control of mortal life and living. Pagan Gods and the naming of the days

 

[2nd Timothy Group]

What upset me was that you spoke as if I had been traveling down a wrong road all of the way all of these years as if I had no real faith in God now... yet I know that God is really first in my life, in my heart today before anything and anyone...

Why do you care so much about the ideas that others have about you?

 

[Behold]

*I've made my reply in blue font to differentiate from the quoted texts that are broken up for individual response.
To? Verse 36 reads, "He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. "
Hadēsis, is the Greek word for Sheol, the grave.

Are you a person who does not believe in a literal Hell?
Jesus believes in it, and taught about Hell a lot.
So, this "hades", "sheol", issue, ......is generally related to people who don't believe in a literal "Hell".
There is also the false teaching that these words are referring to a "city dump" just outside the Jerusalem Eastern Gate.
Thx for not also posting that nonsense.

And the verse, you listed.....is a great verse, but its a tragic situation.
This verse describes the damnation that exists as eternity, already, for all Christ Rejectors.
All Christ rejectors....(unbelievers) are currently that Verse......they are damned to Hell, then to the Lake of Fire, while they are currently on earth texting, and working, and having fun.