Rocky,
Why would there be a doubt in my mind? That is one of the points I make in my post. Glad we are in agreement on this.
Why would there be a doubt in my mind? That is one of the points I make in my post. Glad we are in agreement on this.
The Rapture: A Biblical Study
- Thread starter Wormwood
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This is my view on the end times and the "Rapture", based on how I understand the Bible.
I will try and use as little of my own words as possible and leave the the Bible and the Word of God to speak for itself. This I do for the Glory
of my Father in Heaven and His Son Yahushua (Jesus).
Thus I'll start with (my words will be in () )..
Matt 24:4 And Yahushua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (let the Bible do the work...)
2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(Thus the tribulation starts immediately)
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Next thing to happen after tribulation)
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other.
(Last thing that will Happen: So three things happen and in that order, Daniel has it the same way..)
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(This make the progression of the end times fairly simple to understand: To me anyhow)
(More supporting verses, from the start of the tribulation that Jesus has Set)
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image (the abomination) to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Deut 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto יהוה, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, so be it.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Medio, Persia, Greece, And Two of Alexanders generals' kingdoms collapsed - the other two was swallowed by Rome), and one is (Rome), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. (it is the 8th horn of Dan 8; 2 horns for the ram, 1 horn for the goat, 4 replaced this 1 horn, and then the little horn and the horns are the kings)
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. (explanation of little horn)
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (Satan's power): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people (Jews and Christians).
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (against Jesus at Armageddon); but he shall be broken without hand (by Jesus's Coming).
(So here follows my short understanding)..
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. (explanation of little horn)
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:... Dan8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. 29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter (as the beast). Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim (Rome - The whore of Revelations) shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation (rage) against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them (Islam) that forsake the holy covenant.31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they (Islam) shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,... Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (Satan's power): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people (Jews and Christians). Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every el,... 2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Yahushua shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Dan 11:36...and shall speak marvellous things against the El of elohim, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Master from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Matt 13:28 ...,Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Elohim, and of his Messiah; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Jesus's coming). 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Dan 9:27...and that determined shall be poured upon the desolator Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before יהוה, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed יהוה because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. amein. Even so, come, Master Yahushua.
I will try and use as little of my own words as possible and leave the the Bible and the Word of God to speak for itself. This I do for the Glory
of my Father in Heaven and His Son Yahushua (Jesus).
Thus I'll start with (my words will be in () )..
Matt 24:4 And Yahushua answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. (let the Bible do the work...)
2 Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
Matt 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
(Thus the tribulation starts immediately)
Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the
Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
(Next thing to happen after tribulation)
Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
end of heaven to the other.
(Last thing that will Happen: So three things happen and in that order, Daniel has it the same way..)
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
(This make the progression of the end times fairly simple to understand: To me anyhow)
(More supporting verses, from the start of the tribulation that Jesus has Set)
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image (the abomination) to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Deut 27:15 Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto יהוה, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, so be it.
Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Rev 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen (Medio, Persia, Greece, And Two of Alexanders generals' kingdoms collapsed - the other two was swallowed by Rome), and one is (Rome), and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. (it is the 8th horn of Dan 8; 2 horns for the ram, 1 horn for the goat, 4 replaced this 1 horn, and then the little horn and the horns are the kings)
Rev 17:11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. (explanation of little horn)
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (Satan's power): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people (Jews and Christians).
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes (against Jesus at Armageddon); but he shall be broken without hand (by Jesus's Coming).
(So here follows my short understanding)..
Dan 11:21 And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. (explanation of little horn)
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:... Dan8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: Dan 11:28 Then shall he return into his land with great riches; and his heart shall be against the holy covenant; and he shall do exploits, and return to his own land. 29 At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter (as the beast). Dan 11:30 For the ships of Chittim (Rome - The whore of Revelations) shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation (rage) against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them (Islam) that forsake the holy covenant.31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they (Islam) shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate. Dan 9:27 ...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation,... Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power (Satan's power): and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people (Jews and Christians). Dan 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed. 36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every el,... 2 Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom Yahushua shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Dan 11:36...and shall speak marvellous things against the El of elohim, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Rev 13:5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Dan 12:6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders? 7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half (1260 days); and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished. Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Master from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them. Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days. Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. Matt 13:28 ...,Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? 29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn. Dan 12:12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. Matt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Elohim, and of his Messiah; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Jesus's coming). 1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. Rev 16:17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. Dan 9:27...and that determined shall be poured upon the desolator Rev 16:18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. 19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before יהוה, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. 20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. 21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed יהוה because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
Rev 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. amein. Even so, come, Master Yahushua.
Hi S4C, Your words: "Then it shoud be a simple task, indeed, a pleasurable endeavor, for you to show us everywhere in the KJB you've found a personal pronoun (i.e. He and His), which refers to God/Jesus Christ, that is capitalized (other than as the first word of a sentence)."
Well, by golly, you are right and I was wrong. I couldn't find any capitalized personal pronouns in either the KJV or the NIV. It must be a personal affectation on my part, but as I don't see any harm in it, I'll probably continue, sorry if that bothers you.
Your words: "The Greek word "theopneustos" is translated "is given by inspiration of God." The first part of the word is theo which means "God." The second part, from pneuma, is almost always translated as "spirit".
Apparently every text is wrong except you but according to my research the second part "pneu" doesn't come from "pneuma" but instead comes from the word "pneo" which does mean breathe, breeze or blow so translating it as "God-breathed" would be a proper translation and I don't see how that would distract from the Holy Spirit at all and at the time it was mostly speaking of the OT anyway. Everything bible related seems to be a vast conspiracy for you. If every mention of the word "spirit" was removed you might have a case but since it isn't, it's just a personal preference for you. However, I look at it this way. If I'm wrong, then the Lord knows my heart is in the right place and He won't hold it against me and despite what you believe millions of christians have been greatly blessed and have matured in Christ using all of the various translations. But, if you are wrong than you are calling some of God's word "from the Devil and/or Satan" and that's akin to blasphemy. Personally, I wouldn't be so judgmental.
Hi Wormwood and Rocky, Regarding your Matt. 13 ref. Your words:"How can anyone teach something completely different from what Jesus said and expect people to believe it? Most do though."
As I explained to Wormwood, I believe this is talking of the time "at the end of the world" which would be when Satan is loosed at the end of the millennium. What else might the bible have to say on this topic?
1.) In this passage, the righteous are reaped first then the remainder is harvested into the winepress of God's wrath.
Rev. 14:14-20 - "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
2.) In the chronolgy of Rev., the righteous are gathered into heaven, Rev. 7:9, leaving the rest of humanity to face the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God, Rev. 8-19.
3.) The timing of this is parallel to the 6th seal and the following rapture-resurrection of Rev. 7:9 again leaving the unrighteous for judgment and wrath. Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
4.) No mention of the evil being harvested first. 1 Cor. 15:51-52 - "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
5.) 1 Thess. 5:1-5 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."
The Day of the Lord begins with sealing of the 144,000 and then the rapture/resurrection of the church and the opening of the 7th seal. He's not coming "as a thief in the night" for the church, just the unbelieving world that will remain. Perhaps they will say "peace and safety" because the troublesome church will be out of their hair??
6.) 1 Co. 15:23-24 - "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
7.) 1 Thess. 1:10 - "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Deliverance first, then the wrath!!
There is definitely more than one way to look at this time.
Well, by golly, you are right and I was wrong. I couldn't find any capitalized personal pronouns in either the KJV or the NIV. It must be a personal affectation on my part, but as I don't see any harm in it, I'll probably continue, sorry if that bothers you.
Your words: "The Greek word "theopneustos" is translated "is given by inspiration of God." The first part of the word is theo which means "God." The second part, from pneuma, is almost always translated as "spirit".
Apparently every text is wrong except you but according to my research the second part "pneu" doesn't come from "pneuma" but instead comes from the word "pneo" which does mean breathe, breeze or blow so translating it as "God-breathed" would be a proper translation and I don't see how that would distract from the Holy Spirit at all and at the time it was mostly speaking of the OT anyway. Everything bible related seems to be a vast conspiracy for you. If every mention of the word "spirit" was removed you might have a case but since it isn't, it's just a personal preference for you. However, I look at it this way. If I'm wrong, then the Lord knows my heart is in the right place and He won't hold it against me and despite what you believe millions of christians have been greatly blessed and have matured in Christ using all of the various translations. But, if you are wrong than you are calling some of God's word "from the Devil and/or Satan" and that's akin to blasphemy. Personally, I wouldn't be so judgmental.
Hi Wormwood and Rocky, Regarding your Matt. 13 ref. Your words:"How can anyone teach something completely different from what Jesus said and expect people to believe it? Most do though."
As I explained to Wormwood, I believe this is talking of the time "at the end of the world" which would be when Satan is loosed at the end of the millennium. What else might the bible have to say on this topic?
1.) In this passage, the righteous are reaped first then the remainder is harvested into the winepress of God's wrath.
Rev. 14:14-20 - "And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs."
2.) In the chronolgy of Rev., the righteous are gathered into heaven, Rev. 7:9, leaving the rest of humanity to face the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God, Rev. 8-19.
3.) The timing of this is parallel to the 6th seal and the following rapture-resurrection of Rev. 7:9 again leaving the unrighteous for judgment and wrath. Matt. 24:29-31 - "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."
4.) No mention of the evil being harvested first. 1 Cor. 15:51-52 - "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
5.) 1 Thess. 5:1-5 - "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."
The Day of the Lord begins with sealing of the 144,000 and then the rapture/resurrection of the church and the opening of the 7th seal. He's not coming "as a thief in the night" for the church, just the unbelieving world that will remain. Perhaps they will say "peace and safety" because the troublesome church will be out of their hair??
6.) 1 Co. 15:23-24 - "But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."
7.) 1 Thess. 1:10 - "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."
Deliverance first, then the wrath!!
There is definitely more than one way to look at this time.
By who???
As I thave shown you, this is merely one tactic used by the enemy to introduce his generic equivalent, his copyrighted New Age “bibles.” That you “don’t see any harm in it” does not neutralize that reality, but merely indicates that you were ignorant in that area. I suggest you do not choose to remain ignorant in your "personal affectations."
Different people react in different ways when presented with the truth... This is all about being righteous i.e. it’s about DOING the right thing.
Again, you’ve been presented with the truth and you’re choosing to refuse to act on that truth. Obviously, you're not interested in performing due diligence.
Shame on you that you would attempt to toss the truth in your “conspiracy” bin.
BTW, the word “conspiracy” is found 30+ times in the Holy Bible. Have you read it?
[SIZE=12.5pt]There is a conspiracy of her prophets in the midst thereof, like a roaring lion ravening the prey; they have devoured souls; they have taken the treasure and precious things...Her priests have violated my law, and have profaned mine holy things: they have put no difference between the holy and profane...Her princes in the midst thereof are like...to shed blood, and to destroy souls, to get dishonest gain[/SIZE]. And her prophets...seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken....Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD. (Ezekiel chapter 22)
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. (Mat 6:21; Luke 12:34)
Dead wrong.
Yet, you have been proven “wrong” while I have not been. Thus, you are now the blasphemer.
Of course, yet there is only one truth, and everything else is a lie.
God commands us to execute righteous judgment. I suggest you obey him. It's time to cease partaing of the ongoing conspiracy.
God is disgusted with those who exert their ‘personal’ opinions over his revealed truth.
Alas, the claim that the word "rapture" is found in the Holy Bible has been thoroughly debunked here.
These posts will provoke grave silence, as none can answer it, except with trite and tiny vagaries. It may provoke the backbiting bark of watchdogs who cared not to read it thoroughly and be unsettled in their baseless opinions. The devil does not want those in a position of authority or influence (pastor, professor, amateur writer) to read these posts. The “king over all the children of pride” would like the prince of Grecia to crown their minds with thoughts such as,
‘Some of this is too dry to read and my flesh is too lazy to ‘work’ through it. It would be easier simply to call Dr. ‘so and so’ and see what he thinks.’ [If he has made his living using Greek lexicons, do not count on him to thoroughly read the material or to have a humble reaction to it if he does. He has too much to lo$e.]
‘I am a solid fundamental Christian, therefore I could not be wrong about anything; God wouldn’t give this writer this information before giving it to me.’ [Maybe it was given to this writer because you were rightfully busy doing important things which this writer cannot do.]
‘I must quickly skim for some small error to prove this wrong. I couldn’t have been wrong all these years. I must find something somewhere in the post to show that I know something that this author does not seem to know.’ [This may be a test of your humility. “Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God...” (1 Peter 5:6).]
‘What will so-and-so think? Will this put me “without the camp” or denomination I currently follow?’ [Maybe God has plans for you to help them.]
‘I don’t believe that Greek and Hebrew study is wrong (although I have not read this post, documenting its problems, nor can I refute it).’ [“He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.” (Prov. 18:13).]
Thanks for responding, Trekson. I will not bother you with any more of the truth.
Hi Wormwood, Here is my response to post #29.
Interesting concept and one I haven’t heard put just this way before. I disagree with your breakdown and I’ll explain why. I divide Revelations into three parts based on Rev. 1:19 – “Write, therefore, what you have seen (the past), what is now (the present) and what will take place later (the future).” (Words in parenthesis mine)
Rev. 1-5 – Some past but mostly John’s present. I believe Rev. 5:6 depicts Christ’s arrival in heaven immediately after His ascension.
Rev. 6-11 – The future
Rev. 12:1-5 – The past
Rev. 12:6-20:4 – the future
Rev. 20:5-22:15 – The far future, after the millennium. Some OT prophecies are also in this time period but, imo, mistakenly put into the 70th week timeline. There are some in Ez. and Zech. To name a couple.
Rev. 22:16-21 – The present
I am a futurist and don’t believe a historicist view is anywhere to be found in Revelations. I’ll go through your list and will try to change the color of the font, for easier reading, but I don’t know if it will carry into the post or not.
1) The Seven Seals (Revelation 4-7). This vision begins with the arrival of the Lamb that was slain and ends with a multitude no one can count in white singing, "Salvation belongs to our God!" and God wiping away every tear form their eyes.
I believe this vision begins in Cp. 6 and concludes with Rev. 8:4. Imo, the multitude no one can count is the rapture/resurrection. The 144,000 are literal Jews, most likely those from Zech. 12:10 and they aren’t witnesses. Imo, they are part of the group of Rev. 12:14.
2) The Trumpets (Revelation 8-11). The trumpets depict God's judgment on the world through various plagues, famines, and the work of demonic forces. God's people witness to the world that like Sodom and Egypt, persecute and kill the people of God. This vision ends with the wrath of God coming, the people being judged and the faithful being rewarded (Rev. 11:18).
Rev. 8:5 begins the wrath of the Lamb per Rev. 6:16-17. There is a difference between the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God. No one knows what Cp. 10 means and Cp. 11:1-14 are in the first part of the 70th week. After the church departs, the two witnesses (two literal men) are the only ones “witnessing” to the world along with the three angels of Rev.14:6-11. I believe the third woe closes the first half of Daniel’s 70th week and ends the wrath of the Lamb, as such, I believe that Rev. 11:15 is speaking forward in faith to the end of the 70th week but at this time we are at the mid-point mark. Rev. 11:18 is speaking of the wrath of God. By using “is come”, it’s using the same present/future tense of Rev. 6:17 as revealed in Rev. 16:1. Rev. 16:18 is speaking of God’s coming wrath of Cp. 16 and the “rewarding” of the saints, imo, is the bema Seat judgment of Christ.
3) The Dragon & Beast (Revelation 12-14). This vision begins with the birth of Christ, the resurrection & ascension which causes the Dragon to be cast down from heaven. The Dragon persecutes those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and uses beasts of world power and false religion to kill and persecute the faithful. It concludes with the deliverance of the faithful (Rev. 14:1-5) and the judgment of the wicked (Rev. 14:6-20).
I don’t believe that Satan was cast down to earth at Christ’s ascension. I believe he is still there acting as the accuser of the brethren. The woman of vs. 6 is believing Israel along with the 144,000 and as Cp. 12 is kind of an overview I believe it parallels the timing of other scriptures. Vss. 7-9 parallel Dan. 12:1 which is Michael in his role as restrainer. I believe vs. 12 is satan coming down and “possessing” the man a/c after his death and resurrection of Rev. 13:3. Rev. 13 is just giving us more info on the a/c and his false prophet. I believe he will be on the scene for the full 70th week with the first half acting as Israel’s Messiah and the second half he is revealed as the a/c. Cp. 14 is the 144,00 which is not the church and I believe it’s regarding the actual time the Lord’s feet set down on earth at the end of the millennium. I believe the latter vss. Of Cp. 14 are looking at Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.
4) The Bowls & Babylon (Revelation 15-19). This vision highlights God's punishment and wrath God has prepared for those who persecute God's people and have sold themselves to the power and luxury of this world. It concludes with the saints song of salvation, the marriage feast of the Lamb and the appearing of Jesus to slay the wicked with the sword from his mouth.
Rev. 15&16 are speaking of the wrath of God. A time separate from and immediately following the wrath of the Lamb. I believe Rev. 17&18 are discussing America and her ultimate fate. Rev. 19 is speaking of the 144,000 in her role as bride and her marriage to the groom, Christ, the Head and the church, His Body. Vss. 11-19 is stage 2 Of Christ’s second coming for Armageddon, the closing act of the 70th week.
5) The Heavenly Kingdom (Revelation 20-22). This vision emphasizes the victory of the faithful. Once again the casting down of Satan is portrayed with a period where those who are faithful to death reign with Christ. The vision ends with the destruction of Satan, death and the wicked and highlights the dwelling of God with those who overcome and God wiping away every tear from their eyes.
We generally agree here except I do believe the millennium is an actual time period, with a thousand years between the bottomless pit, satan’s loosing and his final downfall. I’m a firm believer that history repeats itself as such many things that seem the same are actually different similar events separated by time.
Interesting concept and one I haven’t heard put just this way before. I disagree with your breakdown and I’ll explain why. I divide Revelations into three parts based on Rev. 1:19 – “Write, therefore, what you have seen (the past), what is now (the present) and what will take place later (the future).” (Words in parenthesis mine)
Rev. 1-5 – Some past but mostly John’s present. I believe Rev. 5:6 depicts Christ’s arrival in heaven immediately after His ascension.
Rev. 6-11 – The future
Rev. 12:1-5 – The past
Rev. 12:6-20:4 – the future
Rev. 20:5-22:15 – The far future, after the millennium. Some OT prophecies are also in this time period but, imo, mistakenly put into the 70th week timeline. There are some in Ez. and Zech. To name a couple.
Rev. 22:16-21 – The present
I am a futurist and don’t believe a historicist view is anywhere to be found in Revelations. I’ll go through your list and will try to change the color of the font, for easier reading, but I don’t know if it will carry into the post or not.
1) The Seven Seals (Revelation 4-7). This vision begins with the arrival of the Lamb that was slain and ends with a multitude no one can count in white singing, "Salvation belongs to our God!" and God wiping away every tear form their eyes.
I believe this vision begins in Cp. 6 and concludes with Rev. 8:4. Imo, the multitude no one can count is the rapture/resurrection. The 144,000 are literal Jews, most likely those from Zech. 12:10 and they aren’t witnesses. Imo, they are part of the group of Rev. 12:14.
2) The Trumpets (Revelation 8-11). The trumpets depict God's judgment on the world through various plagues, famines, and the work of demonic forces. God's people witness to the world that like Sodom and Egypt, persecute and kill the people of God. This vision ends with the wrath of God coming, the people being judged and the faithful being rewarded (Rev. 11:18).
Rev. 8:5 begins the wrath of the Lamb per Rev. 6:16-17. There is a difference between the wrath of the Lamb and the wrath of God. No one knows what Cp. 10 means and Cp. 11:1-14 are in the first part of the 70th week. After the church departs, the two witnesses (two literal men) are the only ones “witnessing” to the world along with the three angels of Rev.14:6-11. I believe the third woe closes the first half of Daniel’s 70th week and ends the wrath of the Lamb, as such, I believe that Rev. 11:15 is speaking forward in faith to the end of the 70th week but at this time we are at the mid-point mark. Rev. 11:18 is speaking of the wrath of God. By using “is come”, it’s using the same present/future tense of Rev. 6:17 as revealed in Rev. 16:1. Rev. 16:18 is speaking of God’s coming wrath of Cp. 16 and the “rewarding” of the saints, imo, is the bema Seat judgment of Christ.
3) The Dragon & Beast (Revelation 12-14). This vision begins with the birth of Christ, the resurrection & ascension which causes the Dragon to be cast down from heaven. The Dragon persecutes those who hold to the testimony of Jesus and uses beasts of world power and false religion to kill and persecute the faithful. It concludes with the deliverance of the faithful (Rev. 14:1-5) and the judgment of the wicked (Rev. 14:6-20).
I don’t believe that Satan was cast down to earth at Christ’s ascension. I believe he is still there acting as the accuser of the brethren. The woman of vs. 6 is believing Israel along with the 144,000 and as Cp. 12 is kind of an overview I believe it parallels the timing of other scriptures. Vss. 7-9 parallel Dan. 12:1 which is Michael in his role as restrainer. I believe vs. 12 is satan coming down and “possessing” the man a/c after his death and resurrection of Rev. 13:3. Rev. 13 is just giving us more info on the a/c and his false prophet. I believe he will be on the scene for the full 70th week with the first half acting as Israel’s Messiah and the second half he is revealed as the a/c. Cp. 14 is the 144,00 which is not the church and I believe it’s regarding the actual time the Lord’s feet set down on earth at the end of the millennium. I believe the latter vss. Of Cp. 14 are looking at Armageddon and the sheep and goat judgment of Matt. 25.
4) The Bowls & Babylon (Revelation 15-19). This vision highlights God's punishment and wrath God has prepared for those who persecute God's people and have sold themselves to the power and luxury of this world. It concludes with the saints song of salvation, the marriage feast of the Lamb and the appearing of Jesus to slay the wicked with the sword from his mouth.
Rev. 15&16 are speaking of the wrath of God. A time separate from and immediately following the wrath of the Lamb. I believe Rev. 17&18 are discussing America and her ultimate fate. Rev. 19 is speaking of the 144,000 in her role as bride and her marriage to the groom, Christ, the Head and the church, His Body. Vss. 11-19 is stage 2 Of Christ’s second coming for Armageddon, the closing act of the 70th week.
5) The Heavenly Kingdom (Revelation 20-22). This vision emphasizes the victory of the faithful. Once again the casting down of Satan is portrayed with a period where those who are faithful to death reign with Christ. The vision ends with the destruction of Satan, death and the wicked and highlights the dwelling of God with those who overcome and God wiping away every tear from their eyes.
We generally agree here except I do believe the millennium is an actual time period, with a thousand years between the bottomless pit, satan’s loosing and his final downfall. I’m a firm believer that history repeats itself as such many things that seem the same are actually different similar events separated by time.
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Trekson,Trekson said:
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Greek word for world is:
G165
áé̓ù́í
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Properly an age, a Messianic period.
Jesus was walking this earth during the age of law. ‘The end of the world’ that Jesus was talking about was the end of the age. Why was that? Because the Jews had broken the covenant with God and a new covenant was about to be made. We know these covenants as the ‘age of law’, and ‘the age of grace’. That happened in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed.
There is not end of the world as you have been thinking. It is just another way the False Prophecy teachers have been teaching another falsehood.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
‘Age without end’.
Please check these things out with scripture and a Greek dictionary.
Trekson,Trekson said:
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
The Greek word for world is:
G165
áé̓ù́í
aiōn
ahee-ohn'
From the same as G104; properly an age; by extension perpetuity (also past); by implication the world; specifically (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future): - age, course, eternal, (for) ever (-more), [n-]ever, (beginning of the, while the) world (began, without end). Compare G5550.
Properly an age, a Messianic period.
Jesus was walking this earth during the age of law. ‘The end of the world’ that Jesus was talking about was the end of the age. Why was that? Because the Jews had broken the covenant with God and a new covenant was about to be made. We know these covenants as the ‘age of law’, and ‘the age of grace’. That happened in 70 AD, when the temple was destroyed.
There is not end of the world as you have been thinking. It is just another way the False Prophecy teachers have been teaching another falsehood.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
‘Age without end’.
Please check these things out with scripture and a Greek dictionary.
Indeed. This is shades of a new/old heresy known as preterism. This doctrinal system of prophetic interpretation is not to be confused with pretribulationism (the rapture cult).
One of the great dangers in this heresy is the fact that Christians usually don't take it seriously when they first hear of this doctrine because of its obvious false premise. This provides a huge vulnerability when the proponents of the doctrine roll out numerous biblical texts that can be effectively slanted to present their case. This system is destined to take a leading role once the tribulation has begun and the rapture cult has been thoroughly discredited. In other words, beware the preterist apostasy.
Preterists are not antagonistic to the Papists as they view Catholicism as a like-minded post-millennial perspective. Because preterism is a subset of post-millennialism, they see the church as the instrument of God's millennial reign in a spiritual sense. Amillennialism (non-millennial thought) and post-millennialism both believe that God rules spiritually through the church without the prerequisite physical second coming of Christ. This is the system of Antichrist at its very core.
Can you expound on what you mean here? It seems this can be taken a few different ways and want to be sure I understand your point before responding.
Although preterists (those that teach the tribulation happened in 70 AD) chafe at the idea of any relationship between their doctrine and the rapturists (and vice versa), the two doctrines are actually closely related. They both agree that the church misses the tribulation, they both characterize the final empire as the Roman (the original and the so-called "revived" Roman empire respectively) and they are both inextricably committed to a union with the state through licensing and a politically expedient symbiotic relationship with the beast government.
The previous post of mine was specifically in response to the following:
And that poster is correct.
For example, as with the well-known phrase "this generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (ala Mat. 24:34), genea can mean generation or age -- it all depends on the context.
Hi Rocky, I see your point but you leave me with two questions. In Matt. 13:40, is the end of the world the end of the age of law or grace. Secondly, when do you see the age of grace ending? Imo, it could end after the millennium. It doesn't make sense to me that Christ would revert back to the law during the millennium especially when you consider vss. like this one Heb. 8:13 - "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."
Hi S4C, Your words:"Although preterists (those that teach the tribulation happened in 70 AD) chafe at the idea of any relationship between their doctrine and the rapturists (and vice versa), the two doctrines are actually closely related. They both agree that the church misses the tribulation, they both characterize the final empire as the Roman (the original and the so-called "revived" Roman empire respectively)..."
You really have a hard time changing your opinion when you've been proven wrong, don't you. There is no such thing as rapture cultists, that's just a bigoted, slanderous statement hiding behind a false religious superiority complex that you and most KJVO share. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I'll repeat myself one more time. If at any time you believe a living christian's feet will lift off the ground to meet the Lord in the air whether the duration is five seconds or five years, that is the one and only thing the word 'rapture" means. It is equal to the word "harpazo", nothing more, nothing less!
There are four major rapture theologies, pretrib, midtrib, prewrath and posttrib. Only the first believe what you imply but not all of them. The remaining three all believe we will go through the great trib. Only some of them believe in a Western revived Roman Empire. The majority of rapture believers are NOT pre-trib! They just get the most news. It's easy to label people as "cultists" when there view differs from yours. Many here could label you a cultist as well for your KJV leanings but I won't because you are entitled to your opinions like everyone else.
When you speak in a derogatory tone towards your brothers and sisters in Christ; THAT is what makes satan the happiest, when he can use a person like you to create discord, tension and hostility to berate those with whom he disagrees. Shame on you! It shows a lack of spiritual maturity when a believer in this type of arena fails to show the fruits of the spirit with those he wishes to have a discussion with. In case you forgot here they are: Gal. 5:22-26 - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."
There is right way and a wrong way and if you exercised more fruit, people would be more willing to listen to you. Believe it or not, as believers we can disagree without being disagreeable or labellers!
Hi S4C, Your words:"Although preterists (those that teach the tribulation happened in 70 AD) chafe at the idea of any relationship between their doctrine and the rapturists (and vice versa), the two doctrines are actually closely related. They both agree that the church misses the tribulation, they both characterize the final empire as the Roman (the original and the so-called "revived" Roman empire respectively)..."
You really have a hard time changing your opinion when you've been proven wrong, don't you. There is no such thing as rapture cultists, that's just a bigoted, slanderous statement hiding behind a false religious superiority complex that you and most KJVO share. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. I'll repeat myself one more time. If at any time you believe a living christian's feet will lift off the ground to meet the Lord in the air whether the duration is five seconds or five years, that is the one and only thing the word 'rapture" means. It is equal to the word "harpazo", nothing more, nothing less!
There are four major rapture theologies, pretrib, midtrib, prewrath and posttrib. Only the first believe what you imply but not all of them. The remaining three all believe we will go through the great trib. Only some of them believe in a Western revived Roman Empire. The majority of rapture believers are NOT pre-trib! They just get the most news. It's easy to label people as "cultists" when there view differs from yours. Many here could label you a cultist as well for your KJV leanings but I won't because you are entitled to your opinions like everyone else.
When you speak in a derogatory tone towards your brothers and sisters in Christ; THAT is what makes satan the happiest, when he can use a person like you to create discord, tension and hostility to berate those with whom he disagrees. Shame on you! It shows a lack of spiritual maturity when a believer in this type of arena fails to show the fruits of the spirit with those he wishes to have a discussion with. In case you forgot here they are: Gal. 5:22-26 - "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."
There is right way and a wrong way and if you exercised more fruit, people would be more willing to listen to you. Believe it or not, as believers we can disagree without being disagreeable or labellers!
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Trekson,Trekson said:
Everything is based of hermenutics, so when Jesus is speaking to the Jews, he is speaking about the age they were living in, law.
When the apostles wrote the esiptles they were writing to the early Christian/Church, or those living under grace.
Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
The church age is without end.
Millennium
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Greek word for thousand
G5507
÷é́ëéïé
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
The phrase essentially means:
"The kinship of this word to other words is unknown." In other words it is an unknown number of years. In reality it was only until the resurrection, which happened in 70 AD.
Again I would ask you to check scripture and dictionary to confirm.
sojourner4Christ said:
Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure what you meant by "This."
Not sure I agree with you here Rocky. Yes, Jesus is speaking to Jews, but Matthew is writing the Gospel post-resurrection. Matthew is trying to help his Jewish readers understand the Kingdom of God as it relates to the resurrected Jesus. The entire Gospel gives definition to what the Kingdom really is in contrast to the physical kingdom the Jews were expecting. Jews did not want to accept Jesus as Messiah because they expected the Messiah to overthrow Rome. Matthews Gospel is reorienting them to a different vision of what the Kingdom of God is. I don't think Matthew 13:40 has anything to do with the age of the law vs the age of grace.
This statement makes no sense to me. How does "plural of uncertain affinity; thousand" = unknown number = only until the resurrection? You are making some major leaps here. The definition of millennium in the Greek has no connection to the resurrection. The Greek word simply means a thousand. It can be understood symbolically as an unspecified period of time. If you think the millennium ended at the resurrection, then you need to show that contextually. Defining the word doesn't, in any way, prove your assertion.
So far, we haven’t seen any such ‘proof.’
You don’t need to, because we’ve heard it all before from other folks in your camp.
I used the phrase "Rapture Cult," not by slur, but by definition. Because there are undoubtedly many pre-tribulation rapture adherents that are reading these words, it's very likely there are some that have never heard their own belief system referred to as a "cult." Furthermore, this term is virtually guaranteed to inflame the sensibilities of those "rapturists" that have never considered any form of what appears to be mainstream Christianity to be cultic in nature.
The fact is, the Rapture Cult is just that: a previously tiny cultic group that spread their perspective so effectively that they have emerged as the dominant party in what is presently called evangelical Christianity. In the process, they quietly shed various early doctrinal arguments of extremely dubious value, revised the record concerning their original historical roots, and criminally covered up the actual source of the cultic system. If truth seekers want documentation, simply ask.
What I commonly find in the cult is a consistent willingness to resist the truth -- even as they speak of love and grace. You can't have love and grace without the truth. This is what is meant by rightly dividing the word of truth. Regarding the period preceding the return of Christ, Paul wrote that there is a "deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish: because they received not the love of the truth..." (II Thes. 2:10). This verse speaks volumes to me, for I believe it directly applies to the subject of this post.
The issue of the timing of the return of Christ is not directly one of salvation, for a mistaken understanding of Christ's return was not included in the short list of unpardonable sins found in Matthew 12:31. I believe the most dangerous aspect of this controversy is also the greatest weapon the enemy has been utilizing from the very beginning: Deception.
The passages dealing with the Thief of Sardis clearly detail that an accurate understanding of this issue is a signpost -- a benchmark as to the individual's walk with Christ. If that walk is not where Christ desires it to be, the manifestation of that error is a misunderstanding of this issue -- "If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief..." (Rev. 3:3). Remember, when dealing with prophecy, the enemy has three weapons: deception, deception, and deception.
Whoever is deceived on this subject is more vulnerable to the next layer of lies the enemy is planning to unleash in his final assault on the church of Jesus Christ. At some point, it will be undeniable that the tribulation period has begun. Pre-tribulation rapture oriented Christians that find themselves in this period with no scriptural preparation, emotional anticipation, or physical provisions to deal with the devastating circumstances inherent in the trubulation period will be very susceptible to a more serious lie. Many believers will undoubtedly reason that since their pastors misled them on the rapture issue, perhaps they were also in error on other aspects of salvation and the true nature of the Gospel.
Indeed, history seems to indicate that a series of false assumptions in the early church concerning the return of Christ was the motivation for the Apostle Paul's letters to the church at Thessalonica. Satan doesn't change a game plan that works. In fact, he's been using the same tactics for thousands of years, so there are some powerful indicators that this failure to perceive the truth may even be related to the great "falling away" spoken of by Paul in that same second letter to Thessalonica. Note, for example, this predicted departure from the faith occurs at the time of the emergence of the Antichrist.
For many, the much easier path offered by the harlot church will undoubtedly have more appeal than a brutal martyrdom and the very real possibility of seeing one's family starved, imprisoned, or worse. The way of the true Christian has always been personified more by the martyrs of the Roman Coliseum than the credit card laden modern church of the Mercedes-Benz.
Even though the momentum is building among various fellowships, para-church ministries, and other Christian media for a more balanced, Berean-like approach to the study of the 2nd coming, it may come too late. America is under judgement, and that judgement will begin at the house of God. God is not mocked and he WILL clean house in whatever fashion he sees fit.
In the meantime, it is a prudent course of action to continue to warn all who will listen that the great threshing floor is immediately in front of us. I believe the tribulation has begun, and the wheat and the tares will both be in it -- all the way to the harvest. While many just shrug it off and say 'God will provide,' it may be that God has been telling believers to prepare for those days. As the evidence in this post suggests, just because your pastor or spiritual mentor preaches the 'rapture' doesn't mean it's true. The tribulation is coming and I urge all Christians to prepare NOW.
Store some food. Save some water. Think in terms of survival in a physical sense. Sleeping bags and blankets are always in demand during difficult times. During natural calamities such as floods and earthquakes, relief agencies always need medicine, food, and clothing. Almost anyone can afford basic camping supplies. There is much that you can do -- even on a limited budget. Last but not least, I believe it is imperative that all true remnant believers cease all support of the rapture cult.
The Bible says "ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils." (1 Cor. 10:21) The cult has now led millions of Christians into a mind-numbing ethical and moral paralysis that has left them on the spiritual critical list. The leaders of the cult are in terrible trouble, for the principle of the watchman of Ezekiel tells the shepherds that if they fail to warn of impending danger to the flock, "...his blood will I require at thine hand." (Eze. 33:8) The cult continues to reign in arrogance claiming "I sit a queen [or bride] and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow." (Rev. 18:7) For centuries, "They say still unto them that despise me, The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you." (Jer. 23:17) Regarding this passage, the Lord tells us when this false reassurance will occur:
"...in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly. I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings. Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him?..." (Jer. 23:20-24) "Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith the LORD, that steal my words every one from his neighbour." (Jer. 23:30)
Having fought this battle for over 20 years, I already know how most will respond to this post. The Lord's judgement is destined to fall because, in spite of this post, and the enormous knowledge that is readily available to any Christian that will simply study their bible for themselves as they are instructed to do, most Christians still have itching ears. For this cause, God says "Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed" (Isa. 65:12, 13).
Seek the Lord for the truth, and that truth shall set you free.
Rocky Wiley
Active Member
Wormwood,Wormwood said:
I am not a Greek scholar, it their interpretation, not mine.
Greek word for thousand
G5507
÷é́ëéïé
chilioi
khil'-ee-oy
Plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand: - thousand.
The phrase essentially means:
"The kinship of this word to other words is unknown." In other words it is an unknown number of years. In reality it was only until the resurrection, which happened in 70 AD.
Since it is an unknown at that time is probably because Jesus had told his disciples that they would not know the day or the hour of his coming. That just continued on when Jesus gave John the revelation.
We shouldn't tell others that we know more than what the scripture says, and in this case the Greek word is not 1000 years. just an unknown amount. We know how long it was because Jesus told his disciples that the destruction of the temple would be the sign that the end of the age had come. That happened in 70 AD.
Mat 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Wormwood is awesome. Everything he has said on here is very scholarly and accurate. Rapture theory is not compatible with an educated understanding of scripture.
Hi Rockey Wiley..Rocky Wiley said:
Please note that Jesus stated that the Temple would be destroyed... But the answer that Jesus gives to the questions that the disciples have asked, does never include a mentioning of the destruction of the temple...
and also Jesus makes it clear that when he comes again all evil (systems) will be destroyed and Babylon would be destroyed. (This has not happened yet).. Then after a thousand years at the White Throne Judgement all evil that remains would be bound in hell.
and Jesus gave the disciples a very clear answer on whether he would restore the kingdom in their time...
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Rabbi, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Matt 24:3;
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. Matt 24:36;
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
They where not the last generation before Jesus would come back again...
But in Matthew, Jesus makes it clear that the last generation would see all of the things happen (all the things after the questions, not before the questions) and thus we must be on the look out for when these things come to pass....
So that we can know when He's return is near...
the last generation would see him coming on the clouds just as he left...
including the "rapture" ...nobody was 'raptured' in 70AD or up to now... So it must still happen.
Matt 24:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
Hi Tex, Your words: "Rapture theory is not compatible with an educated understanding of scripture."
I certainly disagree. If at any time you believe a living christian's feet will lift off the ground to meet the Lord in the air whether the duration is five seconds or five years, that is the one and only thing the word 'rapture" means. It is equal to the word "harpazo", nothing more, nothing less! The event some call "the rapture" isn't a theory, it's a biblical fact! The 'theory" aspect only refers to it's timing.There are four major rapture theories, pretrib, midtrib, prewrath and posttrib. Everyone that is a futurist pre-millennial on this board falls into one of these categories, whether they like the terminology or not.
I certainly disagree. If at any time you believe a living christian's feet will lift off the ground to meet the Lord in the air whether the duration is five seconds or five years, that is the one and only thing the word 'rapture" means. It is equal to the word "harpazo", nothing more, nothing less! The event some call "the rapture" isn't a theory, it's a biblical fact! The 'theory" aspect only refers to it's timing.There are four major rapture theories, pretrib, midtrib, prewrath and posttrib. Everyone that is a futurist pre-millennial on this board falls into one of these categories, whether they like the terminology or not.
Again, this is making no sense. The definition you are giving is "plural of uncertain affinity; a thousand." Thus, depending on the context it can mean either. However, the base meaning of the word is, "one thousand."Rocky Wiley said:
The word means, one thousand. It can be taken symbolically..but the meaning is 1,000. Either way, the definition of the word does not point to the resurrection as the fulfillment of the millennium. You have to show how the context would lead you to believe this is the fulfillment of the millennium. Defining a word does not help us to understand why you think the millennium was completed at the resurrection. Does this make sense?
I thought it would be interesting to share some quotes from the early church fathers to show what their thoughts of the end times were. I believe, because the various "trib" (pre, mid, post, prewrath) beliefs were not yet formed they could be put in a category called, "post-persecution". (Words in parenthesis mine) This shows the idea of being "caught up" and/or "raptured" isn't new.
Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.
The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)
Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli
[SIZE=12pt]Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii[/SIZE]
Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”
I thought Irenaeus's take on Matt. 13 was unique. He equates the tares with the apostacy.
Justin Martyr - "
The man of apostasy (Antichrist)...shall venture to do unlawful deeds on the earth against us christians..."from Dialogue with Trypho the Jew AD 110.
The Pastor of Hermes - "
Happy are ye who endure the great tribulation that is coming on..." Vision Second
"Those, therefore, who continue steadfast, and are put through the fire, will be purified by means of it...Wherefore cease not speaking these things into the ears of the saints. This, then is the type of the great tribulation that is to come." Vision Fourth a book - The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles - "...for the whole time of your faith will not profit you, if ye be not made perfect in the last time...then shall appear the world-deceiver as a son of God and he shall do signs and wonders...Then shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to stumble and perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself" (Chapter xvi)
Tertullian - "
Now the privilege of this favor (to be raptured) awaits those who shall at the coming of the Lord be found in the flesh (those who are alive) and who shall, owing to the oppression of the time of Antichrist, deserve by an instantaneous death (Tertullian's way of describing the rapture), which is accomplished by a sudden change, to become qualified to join the rising saints (those who died in Christ); as he (Paul)writes to the Thessalonians." On the Resurrection of the Flesh xli
[SIZE=12pt]Commodianus and Victorinus both placed the rapture of the church after the appearance of the Antichrist and prior to the millenium[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt]. Instructions xliv, lxxx and Commentary of the Apocalypse VII, 351 ff. respectively.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]Lactantius believed the coming of the Lord to resurrect the righteous was to take place after The Great Tribulation. Institutes VII, xv-xxvii; cf. IV and Epitome lxxi, lxxii[/SIZE]
Irenaeus - "And therefore throughout all time, man, having been molded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet.”
I thought Irenaeus's take on Matt. 13 was unique. He equates the tares with the apostacy.
Is “harpazo” in your bible? Of course not. Is “rapture” in your bible? Of course not.
You’re in error because you’re attempting to study something which does not exist except in your mind. Calling it anything other than what is found in scripture relegates you to a mob who has likewise been duped into a pernicious program that is merely expedient to someone else’s political agenda. In short, you are being used.
How incredibly disnonest! You have added your spin, your words, to the words of these men in order to promote your agenda.
We don’t find them speaking “harpazo” or “rapture” to us. So why would you be compelled to attempt to prove they do? Why are you acting as a spokesman for someone else’s agenda?
...just more labels, more "categories," being pushed not to unify, but to divide. Rather, stick to your Bible -- the real one.
And "not yet formed"??? Why must you attempt to re-write the historical record?
“[T]he idea of being “caught up”” is scriptural. Please stop conflating it with non-scriptural “rapture” drivel.
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