The Rapture is True and Pre Trib

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
First let me say this, I am not taught by a "church." What I have gathered is biblical. Please directly confront the specific texts I have posted, especially the ones stating Jesus' return with all His saints. Also how it is described in the text as all the bowls being the wrath of God.

Once you have satisfied these texts for me then maybe I may be more swayed to your point of view, until then I am forced to believe as it is written.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
First let me say this, I am not taught by a "church." What I have gathered is biblical. Please directly confront the specific texts I have posted, especially the ones stating Jesus' return with all His saints. Also how it is described in the text as all the bowls being the wrath of God.

Once you have satisfied these texts for me then maybe I may be more swayed to your point of view, until then I am forced to believe as it is written.

I've tried to make it easy for you. But if you won't heed God's Holy Writ about it, and want to believe something else, what can anyone do to help you?


1Thes 5:1-9
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
(KJV)

Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(KJV)

Isa 13:6-11
6 Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
7 Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt:
8 And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames.
9 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and He shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.
11 And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
(KJV)

Zeph 1:14-18
14 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
15 That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
16 A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
17 And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
18 Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD's wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of His jealousy: for He shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.
(KJV)

Rom 2:5-8
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
(KJV)

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldest give reward unto Thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear Thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

Rev 16:15-21
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
21 And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
(KJV)


All of those above Scripture examples agree perfectly with each other. God's wrath upon the wicked occurs AT THE SAME TIME WHEN CHRIST RETURNS TO GATHER US, on "the day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" timing is when Paul said Christ's coming "as a thief" happens!

Apostle Paul well knew those he was speaking to in 1 Thess.5 had already learned all that from the Old Testament Books! That's why... he said he had no need to tell them of the times and the seasons, which is what Christ's coming "as a thief" on the "day of the Lord" event is about!!!

All that is direct Bible proof that God's wrath will only occur with Christ's second coming as a thief in the night, and, that wrath ENDS... the tribulation time our Lord Jesus mentioned in Matt.24. Thus, tribulation timing DOES NOT EQUAL God's wrath time.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Still you have not reconciled how the scriptures proclaim Jesus returns with all His saints. All you have proven is when Jesus returns those left on the earth will receive wrath. I have also proven that at the opening of the sixth seal they will cry about the Lords wrath. I have also proven that all the bowls are the wrath of God.

Truly we can know that certain things were spoken and not written. We are attempting to piece together timing of a vague event in scripture.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Still you have not reconciled how the scriptures proclaim Jesus returns with all His saints. All you have proven is when Jesus returns those left on the earth will receive wrath.

Yes, I have covered that before. The Zech.14 Scripture about Christ's feet touching down upon the Mount of Olives, with all His saints gathered there, is about that very event. And Paul taught more detail about it in 1 Thess.4 and 1 Corinthians 15, which reveals how two groups of saints are gathered to Christ at the time of His coming, one group being the 'asleep' saints that have died which Jesus brings with Him when He descends to earth, and the other group being the saints still alive on earth at His coming being 'changed', and joined with them to go to Jerusalem on earth.

But the idea that Christ comes prior to the tribulation, and gathers His saints still alive on earth with the 'asleep' saints that have already died, and their living in Heaven for a while, and then returning back to the earth with Jesus at the Zech.14 event, well, that idea is NOT written anywhere in God's Word.

I have also proven that at the opening of the sixth seal they will cry about the Lords wrath. I have also proven that all the bowls are the wrath of God.

That the wicked on earth cry because the wrath of The Lamb has come per the 6th Seal, that's a no brainer. It's clearly written. But what you've failed to understand about it is that specific 'wrath' is the "day of the Lord" events upon the wicked, which is why... they want to hide from the FACE of The Lamb, meaning that's when the wicked will SEE our Lord Jesus as He is, per the Rev.1:7 verse. And that wrath will only come to pass on the 7th Vial, and 7th Trumpet, when Christ Jesus is revealed coming from Heaven to all. Men's traditions have instead wanted to pile up all the 7 Vials as being God's cup of wrath which is reserved for the very end of the tribulation when Jesus returns...

Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
(KJV)

God says for us to 'wait' upon Him, until... what? Until: 1) He rises up to the prey (wicked); 2) gathers the nations together, assembling the kingdoms, 3) pours upon them His indignation and all His fierce anger (cup of wrath), 4) earth is devoured with His consuming fire, the 2 Pet.3:10 event that happens on the "day of the Lord", which is also the time of Christ's coming "as a thief".

So if the Church is supposed to be already raptured out before that day, then why does God tell us to 'wait' until... that day instead? It's simple, some listen to what God says in His Word, and others do not.

The Scripture evidence for that is not "vague"... at all! It is only vague to those who are not staying in God's Word as written, those who listen to the fragment doctrines of men instead. I guarantee you, IF... you will get into all of God's Word line upon line, especially the Old Testament prophets, the events of Revelation our Lord Jesus showed His servant John will become much more clear. For the Bible student that has already done that, it's not difficult to know when others haven't.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, veteran.

...
Really, and now you're doing the very thing you wrongly accused me of! And you're even lying about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine! So you and Rach both can take your 'political correctness' attitudes and point 'em at someone else! I won't listen to it!

You really don't have a clue as to what you're doing, do you? Look, I'm going to spell it out for you using these last couple of sentences:

You said, "...and now YOU'RE doing the very thing YOU WRONGLY ACCUSED ME OF! And YOU'RE EVEN LYING about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine...."

In saying this, you have attacked me verbally of wrongly accusing you and of lying. You have attacked the person (me) and not the sin.

This isn't about "political correctness"; it's about ad hominem arguments.

Which way is more confrontational? To say, "I hate liars; and you are a liar," or "I hate lying; don't be guilty of lying"? Ever hear the saying, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner"? The first way, "I hate liars; and you are a liar," is more confrontational. When a person says that, he is getting up in his opponent's face and ACCUSING that person of being a liar!

The second way, "I hate lying; don't be guilty of lying," places the hatred where it belongs - ON THE SIN - and gives the person the benefit of the doubt!

It's okay to caution a person against lying or even making the mistake of accusing someone of lying, for instance, but don't let it escalate into a Hatfield-McCoy feud by calling them a liar! As the old saying goes, "Them's fightin' words!"

When I said, "when one attacks a child of God," it is a generalization that is just a truth without pointing a finger at anyone. I was NOT "implying" you were attacking anyone! Take the chip off your shoulder and just accept that truisms can be stated in a way that does not point the finger at someone. I really don't WANT you to think I was talking about you specifically! I simply wanted you to acknowledge that it is a universal truth that would be true for ANY of God's children!

"Political correctness" is making one's stance nebulous to include a variety of "lifestyles" (which is, in itself, a politically correct statement). For instance, using 'sHe" instead of "he or she," or using "significant other" instead of "spouse," or "conjugal partner" instead of "wife or husband." It's the idea of broadening one's perspective to include the "lifestyles that some might find objectionable (but should be politically accepted)" instead of calling it "the SIN of homosexuality!" That's entirely a horse of a different color!

You don't have to respond to this post. I'll understand if you'd just as soon drop it, but please, just consider what I've written. That's all I ask.
 
Shalom, veteran.



You really don't have a clue as to what you're doing, do you? Look, I'm going to spell it out for you using these last couple of sentences:

You said, "...and now YOU'RE doing the very thing YOU WRONGLY ACCUSED ME OF! And YOU'RE EVEN LYING about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine...."

In saying this, you have attacked me verbally of wrongly accusing you and of lying. You have attacked the person (me) and not the sin.

This isn't about "political correctness"; it's about ad hominem arguments..

It truly is a shame when someone feels the need to resort to such tactics. Debating a topic on the merits of ones views without continually resorting to personal attacks would be much more productive.Let's keep him in our prayers!
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Shalom, veteran.



You really don't have a clue as to what you're doing, do you? Look, I'm going to spell it out for you using these last couple of sentences:

You said, "...and now YOU'RE doing the very thing YOU WRONGLY ACCUSED ME OF! And YOU'RE EVEN LYING about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine...."

In saying this, you have attacked me verbally of wrongly accusing you and of lying. You have attacked the person (me) and not the sin.

This isn't about "political correctness"; it's about ad hominem arguments.

Which way is more confrontational? To say, "I hate liars; and you are a liar," or "I hate lying; don't be guilty of lying"? Ever hear the saying, "Hate the sin, but love the sinner"? The first way, "I hate liars; and you are a liar," is more confrontational. When a person says that, he is getting up in his opponent's face and ACCUSING that person of being a liar!

The second way, "I hate lying; don't be guilty of lying," places the hatred where it belongs - ON THE SIN - and gives the person the benefit of the doubt!

It's okay to caution a person against lying or even making the mistake of accusing someone of lying, for instance, but don't let it escalate into a Hatfield-McCoy feud by calling them a liar! As the old saying goes, "Them's fightin' words!"

When I said, "when one attacks a child of God," it is a generalization that is just a truth without pointing a finger at anyone. I was NOT "implying" you were attacking anyone! Take the chip off your shoulder and just accept that truisms can be stated in a way that does not point the finger at someone. I really don't WANT you to think I was talking about you specifically! I simply wanted you to acknowledge that it is a universal truth that would be true for ANY of God's children!

"Political correctness" is making one's stance nebulous to include a variety of "lifestyles" (which is, in itself, a politically correct statement). For instance, using 'sHe" instead of "he or she," or using "significant other" instead of "spouse," or "conjugal partner" instead of "wife or husband." It's the idea of broadening one's perspective to include the "lifestyles that some might find objectionable (but should be politically accepted)" instead of calling it "the SIN of homosexuality!" That's entirely a horse of a different color!

You don't have to respond to this post. I'll understand if you'd just as soon drop it, but please, just consider what I've written. That's all I ask.


It all began when I clearly expouded Bible Scripture about Christ's judgments upon the apostates away from Christ that follow men's doctrines instead of the Scriptures as simply written, and when I brought up Paul's warning of listening to the false prophets with being influenced by "another spirit" unto deception, which is about the coming false messiah (the "another Jesus" of 2 Cor.11; Matt.24:23-26; 2 Thess.2:3-4; Rev.13:11-17).

THAT is what I was attacked for, simply because I equated those teachers behind the pre-trib rapture doctrines as being false, and those who believe in it as following them instead of God's Word being the cause of their deception by "another spirit"!

As God is my witness, I STILL... stand by that!


Those on the pre-trib rapture doctrine of men are... deceived. I'm not going to hide that, simply because it's easy to show per God's Word how the ones they listen too have deceived them. Thus they have no other recourse but personal attack when they see me attack the doctrines of men they heed. That's why it was false for you to join the boat with them on that, especially since you don't appear to hold to the pre-trib rapture doctrines of men.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Quite honestly it can easily be said in the reverse in your argument. I could say you being led by another spirit and your doctrine is from men. I could also say you are bearing false witness on the text. But I retract those statements.

First of all we have the description of the bowls.

"Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth"

This does not say go and pour out the "seventh" bowl of God's wrath as you teach. Easily from the text you are completely wrong in your teaching being the stacking of the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

No angel has a trumpet in their hand until after the seventh seal. Revelation 8:2 Stacked seals and trumpets? :blink:

You have flaws that can not be reconciled in your teachings. Go back to the drawing board! Please do not result back into personal attacks!
 

WhiteKnuckle

New Member
Mar 29, 2009
866
42
0
47
Rapture debate solved. The Bible says, the dead will be raised at the LAST TRUMP.

Debate ended, solved, and done with.
 

Retrobyter

Well-Known Member
Oct 29, 2011
1,783
45
48
66
Tampa Bay, Florida
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Shalom, WhiteKnuckle.

Rapture debate solved. The Bible says, the dead will be raised at the LAST TRUMP.

Debate ended, solved, and done with.

Really? Just like that, huh?

There is still a difference of opinion as to WHEN that "LAST TRUMP" will be!

Post Trib says that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19 is the "last trump."

Pre-wrath says that it is a "last trump" of this time of grace that will happen during the opening of the sixth seal, the beginning of the Day of Wrath in Revelation 6:12-17.

Pre Trib says that it is the "last trump" of THIS AGE, prior to the beginning of the "seven years of tribulation."

So, how do we KNOW for sure which "trump" is the "LAST TRUMP?" It's not as "solved" as you might like it to be. The debate goes on.
 

TWC

New Member
Dec 1, 2008
141
4
0
40
There shouldn't be a debate at all, as the doctrine isn't taught in the Bible, but people would rather defend what they've been taught than actually seek the truth.
 

WhiteKnuckle

New Member
Mar 29, 2009
866
42
0
47
Shalom, WhiteKnuckle.



Really? Just like that, huh?

There is still a difference of opinion as to WHEN that "LAST TRUMP" will be!

Post Trib says that the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11:15-19 is the "last trump."

Pre-wrath says that it is a "last trump" of this time of grace that will happen during the opening of the sixth seal, the beginning of the Day of Wrath in Revelation 6:12-17.

Pre Trib says that it is the "last trump" of THIS AGE, prior to the beginning of the "seven years of tribulation."

So, how do we KNOW for sure which "trump" is the "LAST TRUMP?" It's not as "solved" as you might like it to be. The debate goes on.

Now why would we think there was some other trump? If there was one before another it would be a preceding trump, not the last trump regardless of how you read it.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Quite honestly it can easily be said in the reverse in your argument. I could say you being led by another spirit and your doctrine is from men. I could also say you are bearing false witness on the text. But I retract those statements.

First of all we have the description of the bowls.

"Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth"

This does not say go and pour out the "seventh" bowl of God's wrath as you teach. Easily from the text you are completely wrong in your teaching being the stacking of the seals, trumpets, and bowls.

No angel has a trumpet in their hand until after the seventh seal. Revelation 8:2 Stacked seals and trumpets? :blink:

You have flaws that can not be reconciled in your teachings. Go back to the drawing board! Please do not result back into personal attacks!

You've failed to grasp what the tribulation is about, with the "plagues" of Rev.16:9

Rev 16:8-9
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
(KJV)


Rev 11:6-7
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
(KJV)

Because you apparently don't give much credit to the Old Testament Books of God's prophets regarding the end of this world, you've missed what God's "two witnesses" are to wield upon the wicked, DURING the tribulation timing. That pattern is from Israel's captivity in Egypt, when God sent them Moses, and set Moses against Pharaoh.


Rev 16:15-19
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(KJV)

That above Armageddon event on the 7th Vial is what ends... the tribulation by Christ Jesus. And just as Paul taught in 2 Thess.2 that Christ will come to defeat "that Wicked" with the brightness of His COMING, that cup there is not until that final 7th Vial.
 

justaname

Disciple of Jesus Christ
Mar 14, 2011
2,348
149
63
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So are you saying God can't use plagues as part of His wrath?
Clearly all the bowls are described as wrath. Denial of truth does not create an alternate reality.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
Really, and now you're doing the very thing you wrongly accused me of! And you're even lying about it, inferring I was attacking a child of God instead of a false doctrine! So you and Rach both can take your 'political correctness' attitudes and point 'em at someone else! I won't listen to it!

:lol: Oh my goodness! This so proves you didn't hear a word I said!
Political correctness?? Who cares about PC? I don't, in fact I have a high disdain for those who walk it's path and neglect God's word because they fear man more than God. I've never been PC and I don't intend to start now. My point to you was not to be more 'PC'...it was (and I'll be really frank here, as it appears you don't do subtle) for you to stop being such a jerk.
You say you haven't attacked people personally, just their doctrines....man, and you wanna accuse retro of lying. Every single person you have been 'debating' with says they feel personally attacked. I could right now go back and post several of your comments that are personally derogatory. I don't care if you believe Jesus is coming back in a space ship, you do not have the Christian right to be so very rude to others in Christ. That, all along, was my point. You brush it aside and harp on my millennial beliefs, trying to make all my points null and void. I really don't care if my millennial issues are wrong...the thing I am not wrong about, is your attitude. You can have all the doctrinal truth behind you, but if you're still a religious jerk, you're just like the Pharisees. Pray hard about it Veteran. You might be surprised how more welcoming others will be of your doctrines if you repent of your religiosity.

Hope that wasn't too PC for you.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
:lol: Oh my goodness! This so proves you didn't hear a word I said!
Political correctness?? Who cares about PC? I don't, in fact I have a high disdain for those who walk it's path and neglect God's word because they fear man more than God. I've never been PC and I don't intend to start now. My point to you was not to be more 'PC'...it was (and I'll be really frank here, as it appears you don't do subtle) for you to stop being such a jerk.
You say you haven't attacked people personally, just their doctrines....man, and you wanna accuse retro of lying. Every single person you have been 'debating' with says they feel personally attacked. I could right now go back and post several of your comments that are personally derogatory. I don't care if you believe Jesus is coming back in a space ship, you do not have the Christian right to be so very rude to others in Christ. That, all along, was my point. You brush it aside and harp on my millennial beliefs, trying to make all my points null and void. I really don't care if my millennial issues are wrong...the thing I am not wrong about, is your attitude. You can have all the doctrinal truth behind you, but if you're still a religious jerk, you're just like the Pharisees. Pray hard about it Veteran. You might be surprised how more welcoming others will be of your doctrines if you repent of your religiosity.

Hope that wasn't too PC for you.


There's no question why... those who hold to such false doctrines as Amillennialism and the pre-trib rapture theory of men, would feel personally attacked by my saying those are false doctrines!

And more than once I've shown Biblically just how those are false doctrines of men, and not written in God's Word.

With their heeding a false doctrine of men as shown to them Biblically, what other recourse do they have but to 'act' personally insulted??? And that personal insult ploy IS... definitely PC hogwash!
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
There's no question why... those who hold to such false doctrines as Amillennialism and the pre-trib rapture theory of men, would feel personally attacked by my saying those are false doctrines!

And more than once I've shown Biblically just how those are false doctrines of men, and not written in God's Word.

With their heeding a false doctrine of men as shown to them Biblically, what other recourse do they have but to 'act' personally insulted??? And that personal insult ploy IS... definitely PC hogwash!

And again he misses the point! You have a serious talent there Veteran...
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
And again he misses the point! You have a serious talent there Veteran...

If you really were interested in God's Truth, you would show it by staying with the Scripture as written, and not by constant complaining. You haven't proven anything Biblically in support of the Amillennialist doctrine being true.
 

Rach1370

New Member
Apr 17, 2010
1,801
107
0
44
Australia
If you really were interested in God's Truth, you would show it by staying with the Scripture as written, and not by constant complaining. You haven't proven anything Biblically in support of the Amillennialist doctrine being true.

Oh, the richness of it! I'm complaining by asking you to be a little less rude? I'm not staying in God's word, when the only scriptures you give for your literal future millennium doesn't even speak of a millennium...at all?? And even though I could, I'm not trying to prove Amillennialism...I don't care if you believe it or not, I'm not trying to 'push' it. My only desire is for you to see I'm not making up my belief by pulling information from the local physic, which is pretty much what you've accused me of.

As a general rule I believe in being loving to all...but at times it can be more harmful to dodge the issue and pander to certain behaviours. You've accused me of being 'politically correct'...walking that pathetic line of 'pleasing all and insulting none' at the expense of the truth...God's truth. Both Jesus and Paul at times spoke almost harshly to others in effort to bring undesirable behaviour to light. So, plain speaking...

You claim that your only reason for hitting this topic so hard is that you fear for my soul, should I be swayed into following the Antichrist by my 'heretical doctrine'. But your total lack of empathy, understanding or ability to find common ground with your fellow Christian proves this claim wrong...you clearly care more about being right than you do for my soul. You haven't tried at all to know my 'soul', so why should I believe you care for it? Your arrogance in assuming that your reading of scripture, above everyone else's, is correct seems amazing...can you truly believe that a sinful being cannot be wrong? You seem to have no trouble in assuming that of us...but of yourself...no!

Here's the clincher Veteran. I've lost all respect for you. Your constant ridicule, followed by "I didn't ridicule you, you fool, I only ridiculed your beliefs" shows your insincerity. You could probably claim that the sun was yellow and I'd doubt you. And from the sounds of it, so would most of the others you've been 'discussing' with. Honestly...try some humility. Even with your supposition regarding scripture it might get you further. I'm not upset with you, not angry at all...despite what I may sound like. You're not important enough to me for that. But what does get under my skin is people who say they are Christian, who say their behaviour is motivated by love, and then only show spite and one up-man ship. At what point do you say..."I disagree with you...strongly. But you're my brother and I trust Jesus to show you the true way, I'm going to extend my hand in friendship to you." I no longer trust that you will ever reach that point Veteran, and that speaks a great deal to me about who you really are.
 

veteran

New Member
Aug 6, 2010
6,509
212
0
Southeast USA
Oh, the richness of it! I'm complaining by asking you to be a little less rude? I'm not staying in God's word, when the only scriptures you give for your literal future millennium doesn't even speak of a millennium...at all?? And even though I could, I'm not trying to prove Amillennialism...I don't care if you believe it or not, I'm not trying to 'push' it. My only desire is for you to see I'm not making up my belief by pulling information from the local physic, which is pretty much what you've accused me of.

As a general rule I believe in being loving to all...but at times it can be more harmful to dodge the issue and pander to certain behaviours. You've accused me of being 'politically correct'...walking that pathetic line of 'pleasing all and insulting none' at the expense of the truth...God's truth. Both Jesus and Paul at times spoke almost harshly to others in effort to bring undesirable behaviour to light. So, plain speaking...

You claim that your only reason for hitting this topic so hard is that you fear for my soul, should I be swayed into following the Antichrist by my 'heretical doctrine'. But your total lack of empathy, understanding or ability to find common ground with your fellow Christian proves this claim wrong...you clearly care more about being right than you do for my soul. You haven't tried at all to know my 'soul', so why should I believe you care for it? Your arrogance in assuming that your reading of scripture, above everyone else's, is correct seems amazing...can you truly believe that a sinful being cannot be wrong? You seem to have no trouble in assuming that of us...but of yourself...no!

Here's the clincher Veteran. I've lost all respect for you. Your constant ridicule, followed by "I didn't ridicule you, you fool, I only ridiculed your beliefs" shows your insincerity. You could probably claim that the sun was yellow and I'd doubt you. And from the sounds of it, so would most of the others you've been 'discussing' with. Honestly...try some humility. Even with your supposition regarding scripture it might get you further. I'm not upset with you, not angry at all...despite what I may sound like. You're not important enough to me for that. But what does get under my skin is people who say they are Christian, who say their behaviour is motivated by love, and then only show spite and one up-man ship. At what point do you say..."I disagree with you...strongly. But you're my brother and I trust Jesus to show you the true way, I'm going to extend my hand in friendship to you." I no longer trust that you will ever reach that point Veteran, and that speaks a great deal to me about who you really are.

Is it feeding time? Need a bottle?